345 réponses à ce sujet

[Iamjdr]

@ Remy
"The bullsh*t comment was about game players trying to insert their opinions formed in their role as game player and pretending like naturally the people in the game should reach the same conclusion."

Oh and I found your post about what I said being bull****

"Are you claiming that as you were playing the mission you had already guessed it was an actual Reaper before it was revealed to be one? If so I call bullsh*t."

Those are your words and your definatly wernt talking about characters ingame coming to the same conclusion as me so yeah.

Modifié par Iamjdr, 06 mai 2013 - 12:27 .

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

No that implies that legion didn't tell Shepard everything because how would he not know there is a reaper atleast nearby when it is the reason he is strapped to reaper tech and broadcasting it signal all over.

Because the Reaper left after installing the reaper code on Rannoch.  There is no reason for Legion to believe otherwise because once again, there is no one in the game who suspects a Reaper is necessary to upload the code.

You are basically using your meta-game hunch to incriminate Legion.  

[Iamjdr]

Incriminate legion how? So he didn't tell me the whole truth, did I ever say hes a bad guy for it? Just because I belive everything he did tell me Does that mean I have to belive he told me everything?

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

@ Remy
"The bullsh*t comment was about game players trying to insert their opinions formed in their role as game player and pretending like naturally the people in the game should reach the same conclusion."

Oh and I found your post about what I said being bull****

"Are you claiming that as you were playing the mission you had already guessed it was an actual Reaper before it was revealed to be one? If so I call bullsh*t."

Those are your words and your definatly wernt talking about characters ingame coming to the same conclusion as me so yeah.

Perhaps the statement was unclear but here is the full statement.  The bold are the key statements.  What I am trying to tell you here is that since it is physically possible to transmit the signal without a Reaper no smart organic in the game guessed it was a Reaper.  So you making a guess is bullsh*t because as the game player you get to see that your guess was correct.  If it ended up that your guess was wrong, you would not be sitting here saying that Legion was lying.  It would just be like all the other speculation people made about the game.  Until it happens it the game, it was all speculation.  The fact your particular speculation ended up being right is simply because someone's speculation is bound to be right.  It was not right because Legion was obviously lying because if what Legion said was not physically or scientifically possible then a smart organic in the game would have called him out.  They didn't.

If it was that obvious then why didn't any of the smart organics in the room guessed it.  Sorry, you are only saying it is obvious because you know it ended up being a Reaper.  Are you claiming that as you were playing the mission you had already guessed it was an actual Reaper before it was revealed to be one?  If so I call bullsh*t.  You can build someothing to transmit a signal without it actually havine to be a Reaper.  The code is separate from the Reaper and all you need is Reaper Tech to transmit it. Doesn't have to be an actual Reaper.

[Iamjdr]

I like how everything is a key statement but that part

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

Incriminate legion how? So he didn't tell me the whole truth, did I ever say hes a bad guy for it? Just because I belive everything he did tell me Does that mean I have to belive he told me everything?

If I am calling someone a liar then I am incriminating them.  Has nothing to do with whether he is a bad guy.  And no you don't have to believe he told you everything.  I am just pointing out your reasons for not believe is just pure speculation and there are other arguably more plausible reasons for it.

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

I like how everything is a key statement but that part

No dude.  You made a claim I was not talking about other characters in the game so I bolded the parts of the statement that prove I was.  Those are the key statements that refute your claim.  The very first sentence states that no smart organics in the game figured this out and the other bold statement explains why they didn't ie they understand the physics of the MEU and think it is possible for the Reaper to transmit a signal without being present.  

So your hunch is bull from an in-game perspective.  See the bold below where you claim I was not talking about other characters in game despite the fact my very first sentence says no smart organic in the game figured this out? 

Iamjdr wrote...

@ Remy
"The bullsh*t comment was about game players trying to insert their opinions formed in their role as game player and pretending like naturally the people in the game should reach the same conclusion."

Oh and I found your post about what I said being bull****

"Are you claiming that as you were playing the mission you had already guessed it was an actual Reaper before it was revealed to be one? If so I call bullsh*t."

Those are your words and your definatly wernt talking about characters ingame coming to the same conclusion as me so yeah.

Modifié par remydat, 06 mai 2013 - 12:54 .

[Argolas]

Legion lied. That's a fact.

Not that I blame it. Pretty much everyone involved in that conflict lied at some point. Just saying.

[Iamjdr]

Don't backpedal now man, you called bull**** and I proved you otherwise and now your just trying to twist words that are right in front of both of us like I'm stupid or something.

[remydat]

Argolas wrote...

Legion lied. That's a fact.

Not that I blame it. Pretty much everyone involved in that conflict lied at some point. Just saying.

Yes he lied but not about this.  There is no proof he does and to believe he lied about this while admitting to Shep the Geth agreed to the Reapers demands willingly makes no sense.  If he is going to lie about the Reaper being there all along he should logically have lied and said the Reapers forced them especially when Shep basically believes they were forced so lying would have reinforced his belief and he would not have questioned it.

Modifié par remydat, 06 mai 2013 - 12:56 .

[Iamjdr]

Yeah he should have said they forced them so when it came time for legion to ask shep if the Geth can upload the reaper code shep can be like wait I thought they were forcing this on you?

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

Don't backpedal now man, you called bull**** and I proved you otherwise and now your just trying to twist words that are right in front of both of us like I'm stupid or something.

Do you usually read sentences by ignoring the sentences that come before and after it?  That's really not how reading comprehension works.  There is a context so explain to me how the context was not that no one else in the game figured out the Reaper signal was in fact a real Reaper when my very first sentence says no smart organics in the game figured it out and the final sentences explains why they didn't ie because it is physically possible to transmit a signal without a Reaper.

[Iamjdr]

My comprehension is fine how bout yours?

"Are you claiming that as you were playing the mission you had already guessed it was an actual Reaper before it was revealed to be one? If so I call bullsh*t."

That is a question directed at me, the player. Yes you did mention that no one ingame had figured it out but that was nearly to bolster your point of if they didn't figure it out how could you?!?!?!?

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

Yeah he should have said they forced them so when it came time for legion to ask shep if the Geth can upload the reaper code shep can be like wait I thought they were forcing this on you?

Mordin does not approve of Maelon's research but he can't change the fact it was done and says it would be stupid not to use the data to help cure the Genophage.  Likewise being forced doesn't change the fact he can see the value in th RC since it makes them an individual.  Further, they are dead without it because the Quarians don't stop their attack unless it is uploaded.  Gherel is on the radio telling the Quarians to continue to kill fleeing Geth. 

And the second point is, there is nothing requiring Legion to ask Shepard period.  He could have remained in the vehicle for the 2 minutes it took to upload the code and upload it secretly.  He asks Shep because he trusts Shep not because he has to.

The rest of the Geth being forced means nothing when it comes to this decision except it would have made the Geth more sympathetic since it is a forced Legion who wants it uploaded as all indications are he was forced to accept the upload by the rest of the Geth anyways.

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

My comprehension is fine how bout yours?

"Are you claiming that as you were playing the mission you had already guessed it was an actual Reaper before it was revealed to be one? If so I call bullsh*t."

That is a question directed at me, the player. Yes you did mention that no one ingame had figured it out but that was nearly to bolster your point of if they didn't figure it out how could you?!?!?!?

No that is how you interpreted it.  It was to bolster my claim that you are making a hunch that no one in the game made which is why in later posts I said you have free will to consider these things while the fictional characters do not.  They are bound by the writers and the writers wrote them not challenging the idea that the Signal was not a Reaper.  

Hence why I said that perhaps the statement was unclear because I can see why you thought that is what I meant but every post after is consistent with what I actually meant ie you are making a meta game argument and trying to apply it to in game characters which is bull since the in game characters can't make such a hunch because the writers prevented them for doing so.

Modifié par remydat, 06 mai 2013 - 01:15 .

[remydat]

In any event, we seem to be straying and I am keen to understand why no one has taken up the challenge. I posted my timeline of events and asked people to find in game evidence that disputes it. So far no one has bothered to take up the challenge. I wonder why.

remydat wrote...

So let's reacp.

1. The Quarians attack with precision strikes on 4 Geth systems. The initial attack did not include the Tikkun system as the Quarians would need to get to the Mass Relay in the Far Rim first.

2. The Geth responded to the attack on 4 of their systems by mobilizing and send the bulk of their forces to defend those systems. As long as the relay that connects to the one in Tikkun is not taken, they have little reason to leave huge forces in the Tikkun system.

3. The Reapers anticipated the Quarians eventually attacking and were likely monitoring the Far Rim. Once the Quarian attack occurs and with the Geth occupied, a single Reaper enters the Far Rim and communicates with the Geth that it is not there to attack but to offer assistence. The Geth refuse at this time but do not engage it because they don't want to start another war when 4 of their systems are currently under attack so the Reaper goes through the Relay to the Tikkun System and waits.

4. The Geth are losing and have to retreat back through the relay to Tikkun to regroup. The Reaper is still there but again, they are getting their a** handed to them and so don't want to fight it.

5. The Quarians follow the retreating Geth and make it to Tikkun and attack the Dyson Sphere. The Geth are know dumber and so accept the Reaper offer. The Reaper then gives them any hardware, software, and the RC code to install on the Dreadnought while saying a similar signal will be placed on Rannoch. Legion is used as the booster and since he is not being mind controlled no longer has access to the consensus.

6. After this, the Reaper goes to Rannoch and the Geth clean out a missile silo so it can chill and watch the fireworks. Legion has no knowlege of this because he is no longer a part of the consensus as a result in 5 above.

People are free to disagree with the above. However, I see nothing in the game that contradicts this. I welcome people offerring evidence that does. Not an alternative theory but evidence that actually contradicts this. We an all come up with our own plausible theories but I want evidence that actually contradicts this theory.

As for alternate theories, my main evidence to contradict Legion lying about the Reaper is the fact Shepard thinks the Reapers forcibly controlled the Geth. The only reason we know the Geth went willingly is because Legion tells us. If you are going to lie about the Reaper being there all along then you might as well lie and tell them that the Reaper controlled you by force as that is a lie that is almost impossible to disprove and would have been more helpful than admitting you joined the Reapers willingly.

So in conclusion, I see nothing to contradict the timeline I laid out and have one BIG f**king reason to believe Legion did not lie about the Reaper ie he told the truth about the willingly Alliance even when Shep was leaning towards the Geth being forced and Shep being in no position to disprove Legion if he did in fact lie.

Modifié par remydat, 06 mai 2013 - 01:15 .

[Iamjdr]

My interpretation huh? So exactly how many ways are there to interpret that question? Actually don't answer that. I dont think i can handle anything dumber then you trying to chalk it up to me " meta gaming" as usual which doesn't even make sense in the contexts of what you said nor does it mean what you think it does anyway as I have proven to you before.....had fun arguing in circles with you again

[remydat]

Iamjdr wrote...

My interpretation huh? So exactly how many ways are there to interpret that question? Actually don't answer that. I dont think i can handle anything dumber then you trying to chalk it up to me " meta gaming" as usual which doesn't even make sense in the contexts of what you said nor does it mean what you think it does anyway as I have proven to you before.....had fun arguing in circles with you again

Except you are metagaming because no one in the game comes to your conclusion.  No one. 

And you have proven nothing because this is all opinion since the canon in the game is that the Reapers came after the attack.  All you can do is provide an opinion not proof.

[Iamjdr]

No the canon of the game says the signal went out after the attack, that is all. There is no proof of timeframe ingame that shows either way. All you can do is provide false information and twist words to your advantage. And if anything I have proven your not a very credible source of info on lore nor ingame events.

[remydat]

Sorry you were the one just claiming proof were you not?  Now you are saying there is no proof of timeframe?

In this video Legion says the offer was after the attack.  Unless, something in the game states otherwise, the implication is any Reaper presence was after the attack.  Otherwise, I can just speculate about anything as long as it was not stated in the game even though it is clearly implied?  

Modifié par remydat, 06 mai 2013 - 02:17 .

[S.A.K]

@remydat
Legion says Geth accepted the Reaper offer when the Quarian attacked the Dyson Sphere (Legion says this on board the Normandy) was attacked. So the time frame is as I explain in the OP. All that must have happened within the small time it took for Quarians to attack the Sphere in order for Legion to be saying the truth. So the time frame doesn't make sense. Geth either allied with Reapers before Quarians attacked (which if true Legion would definitely lie about because it makes the Geth the bad guys imidiately) or Legion lied about not knowing about the Reaper (which Legion has no reason to hide at that point if it knew).

Is "Legion lied" so hard to grasp?

Modifié par S.A.K, 06 mai 2013 - 03:51 .

[remydat]

SAK,

I already provided a plausible timeline. Feel free to explain to me why it does not work.

[quote]remydat wrote...

So let's reacp.

1. The Quarians attack with precision strikes on 4 Geth systems. The initial attack did not include the Tikkun system as the Quarians would need to get to the Mass Relay in the Far Rim first.

2. The Geth responded to the attack on 4 of their systems by mobilizing and send the bulk of their forces to defend those systems. As long as the relay that connects to the one in Tikkun is not taken, they have little reason to leave huge forces in the Tikkun system.

3. The Reapers anticipated the Quarians eventually attacking and were likely monitoring the Far Rim. Once the Quarian attack occurs and with the Geth occupied, a single Reaper enters the Far Rim and communicates with the Geth that it is not there to attack but to offer assistence. The Geth refuse at this time but do not engage it because they don't want to start another war when 4 of their systems are currently under attack so the Reaper goes through the Relay to the Tikkun System and waits.

4. The Geth are losing and have to retreat back through the relay to Tikkun to regroup. The Reaper is still there but again, they are getting their a** handed to them and so don't want to fight it.

5. The Quarians follow the retreating Geth and make it to Tikkun and attack the Dyson Sphere. The Geth are know dumber and so accept the Reaper offer. The Reaper then gives them any hardware, software, and the RC code to install on the Dreadnought while saying a similar signal will be placed on Rannoch. Legion is used as the booster and since he is not being mind controlled no longer has access to the consensus.

6. After this, the Reaper goes to Rannoch and the Geth clean out a missile silo so it can chill and watch the fireworks. Legion has no knowlege of this because he is no longer a part of the consensus as a result in 5 above.

People are free to disagree with the above. However, I see nothing in the game that contradicts this. I welcome people offerring evidence that does. Not an alternative theory but evidence that actually contradicts this. We an all come up with our own plausible theories but I want evidence that actually contradicts this theory.

As for alternate theories, my main evidence to contradict Legion lying about the Reaper is the fact Shepard thinks the Reapers forcibly controlled the Geth. The only reason we know the Geth went willingly is because Legion tells us. If you are going to lie about the Reaper being there all along then you might as well lie and tell them that the Reaper controlled you by force as that is a lie that is almost impossible to disprove and would have been more helpful than admitting you joined the Reapers willingly.

So in conclusion, I see nothing to contradict the timeline I laid out and have one BIG f**king reason to believe Legion did not lie about the Reaper ie he told the truth about the willingly Alliance even when Shep was leaning towards the Geth being forced and Shep being in no position to disprove Legion if he did in fact lie.[/quote]
[/quote]

[S.A.K]

@remydat, I already read that and considered that.
How long would it take for the Quarians  to destroy the Dyson Sphere? A few minutes at most.

Can you explain how they managed to install the Reaper gear plus Legion inside that Geth ship, clean up the silo and hide the Reaper in there and transmit the control signal even before Quarians could even destroy the mega structure? Think of it logically from a neutral view.

If Legion told that Reaper controlled them, Legion would also had to explain how it managed to get so far into the system and how it managed to seize control of the Geth in the first place with very limited transmittion capability. Reapre had limited range transmittion hence the Geth dreadnought was needed to transmit.

Have you even considered Legion could have lied about "Geth accepted Reaper offer after Quarians attacked the Dyson Sphere"?

[Morlath]

Phatose wrote...

How long does it actually take to install Reaper tech?  Lets ask Mr. Smith, as he gets Reaper Husk tech installed.  Mr. Smith?

"AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"

OK, 4 seconds.

I cannot explain the sheer enjoyment and laughter that came from me reading this. Brilliant and thank you.

S.A.K wrote...

Deathsaurer wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Anyway
I still can't understand why the Geth made a truce with the Reapers
without even trying to contact the Quarians via radio or something when
they attacked. If they gave the Quarians a peaceful way to retake their
world, they would have accepted it. Geth didn't even try that.

Goes back to ME2 if you take Legion on Tali's loyalty mission.

And like I said Geth didn't even try that.

S.A.K. We keep going over this. There is no proof that the Quarians would accept peace and in fact there is plenty to suggest they wouldn't. For the Geth to continuously seek peace just because it's a morally right thing to do (instead of killing the Quarians in self-defense) only works if the Geth are peace-loving, pro-life and anit-violence monks who live in a monastary and refuse to step on ants.

[S.A.K]

@Morlath,
I don't know how this is so hard to understand. Quarians could have stopped that attack if they had a better way of taking their world other than war with the Geth. Isn't trying to negotiate with Quarians within that 17 days better than becoming Reaper slaves from Geth perspective?