112 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Highever's alienage was thought to be worse because it was smaller than Denerim's which meant that elves stood out among humans more and would also be easier preys given their smaller numbers.
Not because the Cousland were discriminatory. If anything, Highever's alienage had elves working as smiths while in Denerim's, they weren't allowed to carry weapons.

[Gamer Ftw]

Faerunner wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I actually wonder what kind of jerk Bryce was. Highever's alienage was thought to be worse than Denerim's, and Denerim had rapedaddy Vaughn running around in it. Or was there an Arl who would have been in charge of Highever as well?

Agreed. I suspect the elves are the proverbial skeletons in the Couslands' closets (because no family is that perfect). Replay the Origin and note that only the human employees praise the family to High Heaven. The elven staff never say anything, Nan mistreats the elven kitchen help with Pup's consent, and the elves that do comment on Highever (as you said) tend to say it's even worse than Denerim. 

To be fair the head cooks usually treated medieval servants worse than dirt.
So she might as been equally abusive if they were human.
After all she said dog should be put down for just being mischievous.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 07 mai 2013 - 10:27 .

[MisterJB]

Gamer Ftw wrote...
To be fair the head cooks usually treated medieval servants worse than dirt.
So she might as been eqaully abusive if they were human.

She yells at WardenCousland and everyone acts as if this is something normal.
Given the fact WardenCousland is about the fifth or sixth most important person in Ferelden at the beginning of the game, I imagine that's just how Nan is and everyone knows she wouldn't hurt anyone. In fact, the Warden can suggest she whips the elves and she refuses.

[ejoslin]

MisterJB wrote...

Highever's alienage was thought to be worse because it was smaller than Denerim's which meant that elves stood out among humans more and would also be easier preys given their smaller numbers.
Not because the Cousland were discriminatory. If anything, Highever's alienage had elves working as smiths while in Denerim's, they weren't allowed to carry weapons.

Hmmm, I didn't see that codex.  I did see a bunch of obeisance made to the Couslands, and giving them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they just didn't concern themselves with the horrid conditions at the alienage.

And just because someone can work as a smith doesn't mean that they were allowed to carry weapons in Highever.  It just means they can work at the smith's, which most likely is not in the alienage. But the "No Weapons Allowed" signs appeared in Denerim's alienage after the purge.  They're not there in the origin.

The servants WERE treated horribly, and threatened (didn't Nan threaten to flay the skin off of them -- mean it or not, that's pretty harsh).  The elves did seem afraid of her, but not physically, to be fair.  They were definitely the scapegoats, though.

Modifié par ejoslin, 07 mai 2013 - 10:49 .

[MisterJB]

Faerunner wrote...
And yet she only has elven staff to hurl abuse at. Imagine that.

Which means the Cousland household was giving jobs to elves who needed them.
And that's not strictly true anyway. We see four unnamed elven servants and two human.

ejoslin wrote...
Hmmm, I didn't see that codex.

It's not from a codex. The groom in the Female City Elf origin is from Highever.

 

I did see a bunch of obeisance made to the Couslands, and giving them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they just didn't concern themselves with the horrid conditions at the alienage.

You have to understand Ferelden culture. In Ferelden, autonomy is valued above everything else which means that the population is, mostly, expected to be able to take care of themselves. The city guard has a very laissezfaire attitude which mean they only investigate the worst offenses like murder. And there is nothing telling us elves were being murdered in Highever.
World of Thedas- pag 47.

And just because someone can work as a smith doesn't mean that they were allowed to carry weapons in Highever. It just means they can work at the smith's, which most likely is not in the alienage.

Blacksmit is an important job in a medieval society. That is the guy providing weapons and armor to your army, afterall. For an elf to be an apprentice blacksmith and not just deliver purchases it's a big deal.

But the "No Weapons Allowed" signs appeared in Denerim's alienage after the purge.  They're not there in the origin.

True but if you speak to the elven shopkeeper in the origin, he will tell you elves aren't allowed to carry weapons.
Altough I doubt peasants can just stroll into the tavern with a claymore over their shoulders but, whatever.

The servants WERE treated horribly, and threatened (didn't Nan threaten to flay the skin off of them -- mean it or not, that's pretty harsh).  The elves did seem afraid of her, but not physically, to be fair.  They were definitely the scapegoats, though.

She also threatened to collar the symbol of Ferelden; mabaris are in the coat of arms of the king; and the elves insult her three times despite her clearly hearing them. They might be afraid of the mabari but they clearly aren't scared of Nan.

[ejoslin]

But but but... Again, you don't know that elves couldn't be smiths in Denerim. And in fact, if they couldn't, then it made NO sense at all for the CE's soon-to-be spouse to move there.

And I disagree that they weren't afraid of Nan. They looked to be cowering when you walked in, they were being blamed for the mabari's actions, etc. They were trying to calm her down as well, but they didn't look to be happy in their roles as scapegoats.

Ah, I don't really have time to address the rest of this atm, but I'll get back to it later

[MisterJB]

ejoslin wrote...

But but but... Again, you don't know that elves couldn't be smiths in Denerim. And in fact, if they couldn't, then it made NO sense at all for the CE's soon-to-be spouse to move there.

Fair point but we didn't see any elven smiths in Denerim; as opposed to a human and a dwarf; and if they aren't allowed to carry weapons, I very much doubt they are allowed to make them.

That could explain the huge dowry. Maybe city elves just put that much emphasys on marriage. I should replay that origin with a female elf.

And I disagree that they weren't afraid of Nan. They looked to be cowering when you walked in, they were being blamed for the mabari's actions, etc. They were trying to calm her down as well, but they didn't look to be happy in their roles as scapegoats.

The only thing standing between then and a war hound half as big as a horse who was trained to kill knigths in full plate armor and has already shown signs of them being unwelcome "But mistress, it won't let us near." is a measly wooden door. I'd be scared too.
The fact that they insult nan three times without fear of retalitation indicates they were, most likely, only afraid of the mabari which is wise. We're used to seeing them as docile puppies but mabaris are very dangerous.

[Ryzaki]

thats1evildude wrote...

Because he gives a way better pre-battle speech than Anora.

That's not the only reason I made him King, but it's certainly the biggest.

This.

I did the US with Anora as queen and good lord.

No. Just...no.

I had to glare at the screen the VA was so bland.

[Ryzaki]

Faerunner wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I actually wonder what kind of jerk Bryce was. Highever's alienage was thought to be worse than Denerim's, and Denerim had rapedaddy Vaughn running around in it. Or was there an Arl who would have been in charge of Highever as well?

Agreed. I suspect the elves are the proverbial skeletons in the Couslands' closets (because no family is that perfect). Replay the Origin and note that only the human employees praise the family to High Heaven. The elven staff never say anything, Nan mistreats the elven kitchen help with Pup's consent, and the elves that do comment on Highever (as you said) tend to say it's even worse than Denerim. 

Nan's "mistreatment" isn't anything OMG how terrible!!! worthy. She blows a lot of hot air. She does the exact same thing to the human noble. (only way to get her to knock it off is to do what she wants or to threaten her.)

And redid that conversation. The closest she gets to being abusive is when one of the elf's groans when she goes "I have a whole army to feed and then some. And don't you two think you're getting away from me anytime soon." 

One of the elves groan and she continues "I'd beat you black and blue if I didn't need both of your arms working! Blasted elves."

But this isn't that different from what I'd get from my grams if I was grumbling about work when she was doing a whole bunch of work. *shrugs* Just replace blasted elves with lazy heifer. 

As for Iona playing a female HN I'm no seeing anything patronizing in that conversation.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 mai 2013 - 12:23 .

[MisterJB]

Faerunner wrote...
And they deserve to be praised for providing only scut work in a hostile environment because they know the elves are poor and desperate enough to take any job (regardless of wage, quality, or safety) because they know nothing better is available to them?

Blacksmith and lady in waiting are not scut work and those are options. By hiring them as servants, the Couslands help them to provide for their families. Are you going to be dissastified with anything short of the Couslands spearheading the fight for elven rights?

Two humans in the kitchen or the houshold in general? (Don't remember seeing humans in the kitchen.)

Because I only saw Nan hurling abuse at the elves. "I'll skin you useless elves!"

Either way, thanks for proving my point.

There were no humans in the kitchen but she orders around the youngest of the Couslands the very next second. That's obviously customary with Nan and the elves feel safe enough to insult her multiple times.

[Gamer Ftw]

MisterJB wrote...

Faerunner wrote...
And they deserve to be praised for providing only scut work in a hostile environment because they know the elves are poor and desperate enough to take any job (regardless of wage, quality, or safety) because they know nothing better is available to them?

Blacksmith and lady in waiting are not scut work and those are options. By hiring them as servants, the Couslands help them to provide for their families. Are you going to be dissastified with anything short of the Couslands spearheading the fight for elven rights?

Two humans in the kitchen or the houshold in general? (Don't remember seeing humans in the kitchen.)

Because I only saw Nan hurling abuse at the elves. "I'll skin you useless elves!"

Either way, thanks for proving my point.

There were no humans in the kitchen but she orders around the youngest of the Couslands the very next second. That's obviously customary with Nan and the elves feel safe enough to insult her multiple times.

A bit off topic but I love the expression on nan's face when you threaten her. My mabari has nobler blood than you,old hag. 
Btw,my rogue named him Hohaku.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 08 mai 2013 - 02:03 .

[Bhryaen]

Ah, one of my most favorite characters to hate. I really wish I had the conversation option to fire her. I mean, I'm her boss, right? So what if she's known me since I was in smaller clothes. I'm finally grown up, in charge of the place while Dad's gone- and my first executive decision is to finally be rid of that tyrant from the kitchen, "Threatening to quit, Nan? Why don't I just help you with that by offering this pink slip." And about time too.

Yeah, I do get the idea that she's always like that (rude and annoying) and more or less with everyone (and this makes it OK?)- and there is a fair amount of abusiveness that you can let roll off your back as humor due to the fact that the bestower can't or won't be actually do anything to you. Friends tease each other that way. But her abusiveness toward the elves in the kitchen staff doesn't sound like such off-the-cuff humor to me. It's not a wink-and-a-nod chiding or a banter between relative equals. She doesn't appear to wait anticipatorily for their chuckles. She's their boss, and she's a b...eachball. The elf staff don't appear amused. Their heads are bowed- and this must go on constantly. Their grumbling happens, yes, and with that amount of constant berating it's hard to see how it couldn't happen, but it's not exactly tolerated: they get yet another berating as a consequence. They look beaten down. They are beaten down.

You can't even get elves in the rest of the Cousland castle to even speak with you- just polite worker statements and staying very, very busy- must work- not slacking off, m'lord, not a bit. This contrasts with the talkative, proud, and self-fulfilled elves that the family friend brings or the elf maid in Arl Eamon's estate who will hold at least a short conversation. Even "commoner" Anora seems to have a good relationship with the elf in her employ (and even an Orlais(ish) elf at that). If the Denerim Alienage elves speak of Highever as being worse, it's not exactly incongruous to the in-game experience. At least in Denerim elves can walk about freely and have a measure of their own culture and governance- and a place where they're not berated by humans. But those knife-ears should just be happy they have a job right? So get to work, you lazy elf! Stupid elves, and they're always complainin'!

And that's the other aspect that stands out is in Nan's berating: it's all phrased as "you elves!" That is, as if "elves" is a curse in itself. This is different from her calling a human, say, a "lazy heifer" since, well, humans aren't heifers. So that would be an outright insult. Calling an elf an elf, however, shouldn't be an insult, yet it appears to be so for her. I mean, why refer to an elf's race whenever she speaks to them- and always in disrespect? If I were to constantly call someone a "stupid human" or a "blasted Irish" or "good-for-nothing black girl," insisting on interjecting their race or nationality, one just might get the idea I had a racism problem. Maybe. Or if every time you speak to Nan you call her an "old hag" or an "old bat" or an "old windbag," even when she's not berating people (this is hypothetical only), she just might get the impression you consider her age a negative... Maybe...

It's truly a shame that the HN can't at least tell Nan off in that exchange. (Actually you can, but only in defense of your dog, not the elves...) Sure, by that point in life the HN is used to dealing with her "ways", but maybe today's the day the HN gets to shoot back at her what they've been holding back for yrs. And on this particular eventful day, HN puts her in her place. But, no, the best you can do is be snarky as you actually endure her patronizing story and lecture (which I believe was full of irony regarding her treatment of elves). Ah, the catharsis.

The Couslands don't have to be the most progressive family in all of Thedas with banners of egalitarianism and elves in all the high positions and giving to all the big elfy charities, but really... I'd prefer they were at least 2nd most progressive. I mean, they're the big human hero family, the one that can take the throne of Ferelden from the rightful Pirate King Alistair, apparently widely liked. Annoying that they haven't got a distinction also as being friendly to those pesky, whiny knife-ears. But even if they just had an average progressiveness, leaving the Cousland reputation more open to interpretation, that would've sufficed nicely. Instead, well, we get whitewashed Couslands and the unspoken matter of elves in their midst.

None of this has much to do with the OP, of course, but, well, decided to chime in.


EDIT:
Oh, what Faerunner said. I posted before I'd read hers.

Modifié par Bhryaen, 08 mai 2013 - 05:09 .

[MisterJB]

Faerunner wrote...
Are they common options or just the extremely rare and lucky find? The CE Codex admits that occassionally elves catch a good break and earn enough to save up and buy their own houses, but this is not common. The majority of elves have to settle for "working as servants and laborers when they can" because they don't have any other options available. 

They're likely not common since it wouldn't even be a common, easily acessible profession for humans, let alone elves, but it is an options under the Couslands.
Think about it, depending on the number of smiths in Highever and had he not moved to Denerim, Nelaros could have been providing weapons and armor for the thousands of soldiers serving the Couslands. That would make him quite wealthy.

You're presenting a false dichtotomy. The Couslands don't have to "spearhead the fight for elven rights," but I wouldn't be so quick to praise them for just providing jobs before seeing elves working higher quality positions than scullery or chamber staff (lowest paying and most physically gruelling servant positions) in the same castle where humans can work as cooks, kennel masters, guards, soldiers, priests, scholars, and other cushier positions.

Fair enough but remember that finding an elven scholar can't be easy. Sure, it might have given a better impression of Highever had we seen the elven kid of some servant being tutored by Aldous but that's really not the point of the Origin.
We are told Couslands treat their servants fairly, inclunding the elves, and that is about it.

And the youngest Cousland doesn't have to obey her. In fact, the youngest Cousland doesn't even have to put up with her because s/he is her social superior. In fact, only the human characters have a very "Ha, that's just Nan!" attitude because they don't have to take it from her. She screams at Ser Gilmore? He just leaves the kitchen. She screams at young Cousland? S/he can put her in her place. S/he screams at the elves? They lower their heads, cower before her, and simply take it.

Now, that's just untrue. The elves, obviously, don't walk away because they have a steady job in a good household which is more than most elves can say and they have to work but they also don't just take it. They insult her right back which is, clearly, an acknowledgement that she is just "good, old Nan".

The elven staff are clearly terrified when she screams at them

They're terrified of the War Hound, not Nan. The evidene being that they don't cower anymore after the youngest Cousland makes him be silent despite Nan continuing to berate them.

yet they have to put up with it because she has the power to punish or fire them. It's an inherent imbalance of power that is not at all like her relationship with Cousland.

First, you don't even know if Nan has the power to punish them. We certainly don't see it.
Second, yes, there is an inbalance of power but that is not so different from today's work market. She is their boss and the Cousland is her boss.
You've never had a grumpy but good natured boss yell at you?

They don't get to roll their eyes, laugh in her face, walk out of the kitchen, threaten her, or any of those other nice little privileges of Ser Gilmore and Cousland without serious repercussions.

Except they totally insult her without any repercutions whatsoever.

Also, people don't always snark because they "feel safe" to do so. Sometimes people reach a point where they get so degraded or downtrodden that they feel it's worth the punishment or have such pent up resentment that it just slips out.

Which is clearly not the case here because they do it multiple times and nothing happens to them.
If the elves feel so very abused by Nan, why not just complain to the youngest Cousland? S/he is standing right there, S/he is going to be lord/lady of the castle the next day. And his/her personality is entirely player dictated which means s/he can be the most elven friendly Cousland ever.
Just compare it to the other household of the country where the elves, apparently, mustn't be seen slacking off.

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 mai 2013 - 11:48 .

[ejoslin]

Okay, a couple of points. 

Regarding Nan, I pulled out the toolset. Yes, her threats were empty, but there were other interesting notes in there regarding how she viewed the elves. Things like this (notes will be put in parentheses).

Nan: I can't chatter any more. I've a whole army to feed, and then some. And don't think you two will get away from me anytime soon! (Nattering away, then switching to sharp angry tones when talking to the servants, at the end.)

Female Servant: Groans (Loud groan - the servants are sick of working with her.)

Nan: I heard that! I'd beat you black and blue if I didn't need your arms working! Blasted elves! (Fairly empty threats. elves = slaves and second class citizens, should be said with disgust)

If the HN suggests whipping them (after one of them called her an "old bat",) Nan does refuse. The note about that says:

Nan: Oh, there's no need for that. Don't think I don't see you there, Cath! (She's not really mean enough to whip them, she just wants everyone to think she is.)

This kind of suggests that if Nan wanted to beat them, no one would care.

Okay, further more, weapons are banned in the alienage. But that doesn't mean that elves can't carry them outside the alienage. In fact, at Ostegar, you had elves delivering weapons all over the place. And you just don't know if there were elves working for smiths, perhaps as smiths, in the Denerim market area before the riots. After the purge and subsequent lockdown, of course there aren't.

We do know that elves also worked in the Denerim castle as well before the purge as servants.  One of them helped the CE by knocking out the cook.  

Another edit: I already said I'm willing to give Bryce a small pass that he most likely didn't encourage active violence against the elves -- it's possible that he just ignored it as it was unimportant.  But you have to wonder how bad those conditions are that someone would be willing to give up a trade or at least a very prestigous job to move to another alienage to get married.  You would think if the conditions were even close that the CE and her father and cousin moving to Highever would have been arranged instead.

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 mai 2013 - 11:56 .

[MisterJB]

Bhryaen wrote...
You can't even get elves in the rest of the Cousland castle to even speak with you- just polite worker statements and staying very, very busy- must work- not slacking off, m'lord, not a bit.

Not true. That happens in Ostagar and Eamon's palace in Denerim but not in Highever. There, while you can't talk to the elves, you do see some loitering about in their rooms and all they say is something like "We will serve you well while the Teyrn is away." and "The castle will seem so empty with all the soldiers going south".

And that's the other aspect that stands out is in Nan's berating: it's all phrased as "you elves!" That is, as if "elves" is a curse in itself. This is different from her calling a human, say, a "lazy heifer" since, well, humans aren't heifers. So that would be an outright insult. Calling an elf an elf, however, shouldn't be an insult, yet it appears to be so for her. I mean, why refer to an elf's race whenever she speaks to them- and always in disrespect?

That is true but if you are a human in Orzammar, you're an "outsider". And it's even worse amongst the Dalish or in the Alienage where they actually use racial slurs "Shemlen, shem". At least Nan is not calling them "Knife ears."
The truth is no race in Thedas is that well integrated,

It's truly a shame that the HN can't at least tell Nan off in that exchange.

Sure you can, you can threaten to cut off her tongue.

[ejoslin]

Oooh, the cut off the tongue comment -- nothing to do with elves, this is when Nan bad-talks the dog.

Nan: Why are you talking to me, young man? That wretched creature is likely eating my beautiful roast as we speak! (Harranging the player)

Warden: You will keep a civil tongue or I will cut it out.

(Low intimidate) Nan: I... yes, of course, my lord. I do apologize. (Very surprised and hurt.)
(Otherwise) Nan: You'll do no such thing. Though I apologize for speaking out of turn. (sharply)

Either way, she apologizes immediately. The warden can't tell Nan off for saying stuff about the elves, though.  

Nan does end up giving the dog a treat in the end -- she actually likes him. I'm reading through this looking for any indication that she views the elves as anything other than slaves, and I don't see it. Which makes sense, really. That IS how elves are viewed.

Edit: And violence against them is not considered anything outside of the norm.  Which probably is why the conditions are allowed to be so bad at the alienage.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 mai 2013 - 12:15 .

[Nyxanna]

Anora is ahead because she "ruled"? Treating elves like trash is ruling, yeah?
Whatever dude. Loghain and his idiotic family ruined whatever leader there was for Ferelden.

[Gamer Ftw]

Nyxanna wrote...

Anora is ahead because she "ruled"? Treating elves like trash is ruling, yeah?
Whatever dude. Loghain and his idiotic family ruined whatever leader there was for Ferelden.

Not true,the epilogue can turn out pretty well if Anora leads and even better if she has a Cousland at her side.

[Jedimaster88]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Not true,the epilogue can turn out pretty well if Anora leads and even better if she has a Cousland at her side.

The elves might disagree with that.

I dont know all the details about the Cousland+Anora marriage because I havent done that, but I remember reading that there is a chance for struggle for power between those two. I dont know if thats a good sign.

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power." Okay this doesnt actually belong here but I couldnt resist mentioning it:D.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Nyxanna wrote...

Anora is ahead because she "ruled"? Treating elves like trash is ruling, yeah?
Whatever dude. Loghain and his idiotic family ruined whatever leader there was for Ferelden.

It's par for the course, unfortunately. Elves are treated like trash. That's how it is.

The reason I like Alistair is because he isn't like that. The reason I like Anora is because she's the one who ruled Ferelden while Cailan was king, and she hasn't managed to get it sacked yet. (Plus her whole "shaft you the second you do the one thing I told you could get me killed" thing indicates reasonably good instincts for someone who might need to negotiate with Tevinter or Orlais.) The reason I like having them rule together is because each of them covers the other's weak area.

[Gamer Ftw]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Not true,the epilogue can turn out pretty well if Anora leads and even better if she has a Cousland at her side.

The elves might disagree with that.

I dont know all the details about the Cousland+Anora marriage because I havent done that, but I remember reading that there is a chance for struggle for power between those two. I dont know if thats a good sign.

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power." Okay this doesnt actually belong here but I couldnt resist mentioning it:D.

Well,I like elves and support elf rights but they need to stop rioting.
It only gets them killed.
If there is a food shortage learn to freaking hunt,it isn't that hard.
Or save your pennies and buy livestock.
Seriously elves get a clue.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 08 mai 2013 - 08:56 .

[Ryzaki]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Not true,the epilogue can turn out pretty well if Anora leads and even better if she has a Cousland at her side.

The elves might disagree with that.

I dont know all the details about the Cousland+Anora marriage because I havent done that, but I remember reading that there is a chance for struggle for power between those two. I dont know if thats a good sign.

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power." Okay this doesnt actually belong here but I couldnt resist mentioning it:D.

Well,I like elves and support elf rights but they need to stop rioting.
It only gets them killed.
If there is a food shortage learn to freaking hunt,it isn't that hard.

Hunt...with what exactly?

They're not allowed weapons.