112 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

[quote]Faerunner wrote...
Stop right there. We don't know who Nelaros smithed under. It could have been in Castle Cousland or it could have been some random common smith in town. Considering the whole "elves = slaves/second-class citizens" mentality most people here agree is commonplace, I'm putting my money on the latter.

Also, the lady in waiting job was provided by Lady Landra, who does not live in Highever.

So, no, I wouldn't be so quick to give the Couslands credit for those spectacular jobs. [/quote]
First of all, why would a belief that elves are second classe citizens serve as evidence that Nelaros smithed under some random smith? Because, for some reason, the Couslands are more prejudiced than lower born people despite every claim in contrary?

Second, Highever is the Cousland's personal holding which means that, regardless of whom Nelaros was apprenticed to, he was still smithing under the Couslands. Same for Iona since Lady Landra is beholden to the Couslands.
[quote]
Or he could have just been an over-worked, under-paid, under-appreciated apprentice working for some old drunk in town. (Someone like Owan from Redcliffe, or had a situation like Will Turner to Mr. Brown from PotC.) But hey, compared to what most elves go through, that's living it up, right? [/quote]
Apprentices of whoever profession are expected to inherit it in time. So, yes, that is pretty big for an elf.

[quote]
Indeed. Alongside everything else, it shows the socio/economic/educational difference between humans and elves, showing how high most humans live in the castle and how low the only elves we see working there are worked and treated, and how everyone considers the latter quite ordinary.[/quote]
Yeah, no. The origin is about getting to know the actual Cousland family that is about to be slaugthered so the player can form ties with them and wish to kill Howe. I expect the writers weren't thinking to themselves "You know what this human origin needs? Lots of elven issues. That is what players who choose to play as a human wish to encounter."

Also, most humans seen in the castle were guards with only three holding any sort of authority. The elves I saw were being treated as respectable people with the only inkling of "abuse" being a bit of a verbal beatdown coming from the woman who will yell at everyone; including a young lord; and who still didn't even consider touching them and ignored their insolences.

[quote]
We are told by one elf who doesn't even live in Highever that it seems like they're treated fairly, but she hasn't been around very long, hasn't left her lady's side since she arrived, and might not know what goes on when noble ladies aren't looking. Just keeping that in mind. [/quote]
Iona is transmitting what she has been told. Therefore, it's common knowledge Couslands treat their servants well just like it's common knowledge Vaughan is a rapist and a murderer.

[quote]As ejoslin has said, Highever has a reputation as being worse than Denerim by people who actually live there. Also, if it's such a great place, then why don't most elves clamor to live there? Why does the CE's bride/groom move rather than the other way around if Highever is such a great alienage and the Couslands so hospitable?[/quote]
That Highever is such a great place for elves to live in has never been the basis of my arguments. I am defending the Couslands and you are ignoring the fact Nelaros explains why life in Highever is more arduous and it has nothing to do with the Couslands.
The Highever alienage is a worse place to live in because it's smaller than Denerim's which means the elves stand out more and their smaller numbers invite conflict between the elves and prejudiced humans. This is not to blame on the Couslands.

[quote]
I wouldn't call it a good houshold since they're treated like trash and verbally abused on a regular basis, same as anywhere else. People accept miserable jobs when they have no better options, that doesn't make the job good. (Rat stew can seem like a great meal when you're starving or only have equitable dishes, but no one would voluntarily eat it if they had better options.)

Again, only the humans in that scene have a jovial "good, old Nan" attitude. The elves have a very frightened, harried, cowering attitude when she's threatening them and trying to force them to handle a potentially dangerous attitude, and a very frustrated and put upon attitude after her rage is spent. They clearly don't like the way she treats them, so I doubt they have the same jovial "good, old Nan" attitude as her social superiors.[/quote]
The elves at Highever Castle are being treated as any human. Eleanor talks of Iona as she does of Dairren, Fergus speaks of the Warden seducing Iona exactly in the same manner as he does if the same is done to Dairren and Nan yells at them just like she does to Ser Gilmore and the youngest Cousland
The simple fact that the elves do engage in a verbal joust with Nan indicates that they know she barks a lot but she won't bite. It's, basically, "good old Nan."
The reason they are cowering is because there is a killing machine seemingly angry in the next room. They stand up straight once it has been clamed down.
[quote]
And she tries to force them to go get the dog despite how visibly terrified they are. It traces back to her.[/quote]
Yeah, they're servants. She can order them around.
And I'll remind you that once Eleanor Cousland learned of what was happening, she didn't say "Let the elves muzzle it. Who cares if they lose an arm or two?". She called for her younger child, the mabari's master.

[quote]
Cousland suggests whipping them, remember? She clearly has the power to punish them even if she doesn't act on it in this scene.[/quote]
Not, all that shows is that you can be abusive if you choose it. The simple fact that the younger Cousland can suggest it, doesn't mean Bryce would tolerate it. And it speaks well of Nan that she refuses it.

[quote]Even if you make the argument she doesn't beat them (oh, what a top quality) she could still dock their pay, fire them, give them even more gruelling work, increase their hours, etc.[/quote]
So, basically, a normal employer-employee relationship.
You have nothing that even indicates she would and does any of that, much less for no reason.

[quote]
This time.[/quote]
Three times. And the toolset flat out states Nan is not mean enough to do anything like that, she just wishes people to believe she is. And the elves clearly know she isn't because they insult her three times.

[quote]
Cousland is the one who can suggest whipping them but can't stand up for the elves whatsoever in any dialogue option. Canonically, there's a strong argument to be made for them not complaining to the Cousland because they know it wouldn't do any good because, as ejoslin has said (from the toolset), Cousland doesn't notice anything wrong with the way they're being treated.
[/quote]
Could it have something to do with the fact Nan yells at everyone regardless of their status within the castle?

[Ryzaki]

Alright going through the HN on my douchey DWR.

Intimidating Nan successfully reveals that yes she's under a lot of pressure and in a big hurry. I can see why in that instance she'd have a sharp tongue. (She only curbs it if you threaten her).

[theskymoves]

Faerunner wrote...


Stop right there. We don't know who Nelaros smithed under. It could have been in Castle Cousland or it could have been some random common smith in town. Considering the whole "elves = slaves/second-class citizens" mentality most people here agree is commonplace, I'm putting my money on the latter.

/lotsa snippage

We certainly do know who Nelaros smithed under. His father. 

The description of the Wedding Ring (the one that is found on his body):

A simple band of gold made from scraps of gilding by Nelaros at his father's forge in Highever.

[ejoslin]

theskymoves wrote...

Faerunner wrote...


Stop right there. We don't know who Nelaros smithed under. It could have been in Castle Cousland or it could have been some random common smith in town. Considering the whole "elves = slaves/second-class citizens" mentality most people here agree is commonplace, I'm putting my money on the latter.

/lotsa snippage

We certainly do know who Nelaros smithed under. His father. 

The description of the Wedding Ring (the one that is found on his body):

A simple band of gold made from scraps of gilding by Nelaros at his father's forge in Highever.

Wow, then why on earth would Nelaros move from Highever?  That makes zero sense unless the conditions were really that bad.

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 mai 2013 - 04:00 .

[Ryzaki]

Or he really needed a wife from another alienage or something.

And the PC's father must've really made a good deal.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 mai 2013 - 04:07 .

[ejoslin]

He must have. But it makes no sense that they would live in Denerim as opposed to Highever. Perhaps the spouse price was enough that Nelaros could start his own business, but if weapons weren't allowed in the alienage, that doesn't make much sense either.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Wasn't it previously stated that the flyers noting this rule only went up after Howe took over? (I can't judge that for myself since I never looked.)

[ejoslin]

I actually pointed that out, but the merchant couldn't sell weapons during the origin. That's why Duncan had to provide the sword. The CE's father kept Fang hidden as well. 

Nelaros would have to set up shop outside of the alienage, but why leave a certain life of reasonable security to move to an unknown?  Unless, of course, the conditions in Highever really were that bad.

ETA: Actually, Daddy Elf having Fang and not providing it if his son's bride/daughter was kidnapped doesn't make that much sense.  Maybe that's how Soris got to Vaughan if playing a warden other than a CE.

Modifié par ejoslin, 11 mai 2013 - 04:49 .

[Ryzaki]

ejoslin wrote...

He must have. But it makes no sense that they would live in Denerim as opposed to Highever. Perhaps the spouse price was enough that Nelaros could start his own business, but if weapons weren't allowed in the alienage, that doesn't make much sense either.

Maybe the father really didn't wanna leave his home? 

But yeah it's off. =/

I iz now confused. D:

[Fuggyt]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

Not true,the epilogue can turn out pretty well if Anora leads and even better if she has a Cousland at her side.

The elves might disagree with that.

I dont know all the details about the Cousland+Anora marriage because I havent done that, but I remember reading that there is a chance for struggle for power between those two. I dont know if thats a good sign.

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power." Okay this doesnt actually belong here but I couldnt resist mentioning it:D.

That's why when my HN marries Anora in order to become king-consort, he usually persuades Zevran to stick around Denerim for a while.  If things don't work out, Zevran will handle the divorce.  My HN warrior would probably be content to let Anora chat up the bannorn and count the beans anyway as long as he got to run the army and dice up bandits.

[theskymoves]

A smith makes more than weapons: tools, cooking utensils, fixtures for domestic use (hinges, lighting, basic locks), etc.

Perhaps Nelaros was a younger son and not in line to inherit the business? Perhaps he was ambitious and wanted to be his own boss? Perhaps the Denerim alienage didn't have a smith and he's be guaranteed the entire market? Or perhaps the brideprice was just that enticing.

Modifié par theskymoves, 11 mai 2013 - 09:59 .

[ejoslin]

Ah, you're right, he IS the youngest son. So it would make sense that the dowry would be high enough for him to start a business as you're also right that a smith does make much more than weapons, and would make a good living even if only dealing with elves.

[Ryzaki]

theskymoves wrote...

A smith makes more than weapons: tools, cooking utensils, fixtures for domestic use (hinges, lighting, basic locks), etc.

Perhaps Nelaros was a younger son and not in line to inherit the business? Perhaps he was ambitious and wanted to be his own boss? Perhaps the Denerim alienage didn't have a smith and he's be guaranteed the entire market? Or perhaps the brideprice was just that enticing.

Ah thanks

Confusion gone.

[Ferretinabun]

ejoslin wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Because he gives a way better pre-battle speech than Anora.

That's not the only reason I made him King, but it's certainly the biggest.

It's the exact same speech, but his delivery certainly is better.

Hmmm, dunno. His voice is certainly less grating. Then again, I'm a stickler for realism, and Anora does actually sound like she's addressing a field full of soldiers, whereas Alistair sounds quite confident that he's wearing a mic.

[Corker]

theskymoves wrote...

A smith makes more than weapons: tools, cooking utensils, fixtures for domestic use (hinges, lighting, basic locks), etc.

Perhaps Nelaros was a younger son and not in line to inherit the business? Perhaps he was ambitious and wanted to be his own boss? Perhaps the Denerim alienage didn't have a smith and he's be guaranteed the entire market? Or perhaps the brideprice was just that enticing.

Totally agreed on most smiths not making weapons. Nails, horseshoes, pins.  Haven't looked into it, but I'd expect most working smiths weren't weaponsmiths, or only made basic small utility knives.

But Denerim's Alienage did have a smith.  His daughter disappeared a year before the wedding and was found dead under a pier, if I remember the CE Origin right.  (Although perhaps after that, he went elsewhere?)

[Ryzaki]

Ferretinabun wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Because he gives a way better pre-battle speech than Anora.

That's not the only reason I made him King, but it's certainly the biggest.

It's the exact same speech, but his delivery certainly is better.

Hmmm, dunno. His voice is certainly less grating. Then again, I'm a stickler for realism, and Anora does actually sound like she's addressing a field full of soldiers, whereas Alistair sounds quite confident that he's wearing a mic.

I just wanna mod where Alistair gives the speech if he's not gonna be king.  (Loghain must be dead obviously). I mean just god I hate Anora's speech.

[TEWR]

Corker wrote...

Although perhaps after that, he went elsewhere?)

If I were him, I certainly wouldn't want to stay there any longer.

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...


I just wanna mod where Alistair gives the speech if he's not gonna be king.  (Loghain must be dead obviously). I mean just god I hate Anora's speech.

Done.  It's up at ZDF's page under "optional files."  It's very beta since I haven't tested it at all, but it was a simple change -- I set it to trigger if Alistair is recruited instead of recruited and king -- so it should work just fine.

Let me know if there are any problems. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 mai 2013 - 12:01 .

[Ryzaki]

I love you so much right now

Noooo the direct link you gave didn't work but using the search function still did. 

K apparently he gives the speech but he's invisible D: (which is kind of hilarious cause the camera follows him around still even though nothing's there XD)

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 mai 2013 - 02:03 .

[ejoslin]

Really? He's invisible? That is so strange -- blah. Is he still recruited?

ETA: Going over both the flag and the dlg, he most definitely should be appearing.  I'll recompile and then try to track down a save that is right before the speech.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 mai 2013 - 02:21 .

[Ryzaki]

Yeah he should be this is not my Loghain save (lost that one).

Bah I wonder if I have any other Alistair not king saves...

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 mai 2013 - 02:43 .

[ejoslin]

Odd. I recompiled it and put it back up with a warning on it. The only thing I can think about is a did skip a step before exporting it, but that shouldn't have made any difference, but sometimes you never know.

Thank you for testing it for me I'm sorry it didn't work for you :/

[Ryzaki]

Thanks but I'll try again.

NP. Least you tried probably one of the hordes of mods I have installed conflicting D:

[WhiteKnyght]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

 In my mind niether he or Anora have much right to the the throne. [although the fact she has ruled for her husband for years puts her ahead.]
Alistair is a bastard and his father never aknowleged him,he has no real claim.

Ferelden has no laws saying a bastard cant inherit the throne. acknowledged or no. All they need to be eligible is to be related to the Royal Family somehow.

And as Maric's son, acknowledged or not, Alistair is a prince.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

 In my mind niether he or Anora have much right to the the throne. [although the fact she has ruled for her husband for years puts her ahead.]
Alistair is a bastard and his father never aknowleged him,he has no real claim.

Ferelden has no laws saying a bastard cant inherit the throne. acknowledged or no. All they need to be eligible is to be related to the Royal Family somehow.

And as Maric's son, acknowledged or not, Alistair is a prince.

That is debatable. Bastard sons were not considered to be in line for inheritance in medieval times, and Ferelden certainly seems to have no precedent for allowing it judging by the comments the nobles make during the Landsmeet arc. There seems to be no precedent against it either, however. Ultimately, I suppose whether or not you have a point varies from playthrough to playthrough, depending on player choices. (Unless you meant this to guide them, in which case I'll just say that you're making a pretty shaky claim legally. The only reason Alistair can manage this is because Anora's claim is as shaky.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 22 mai 2013 - 02:50 .