112 réponses à ce sujet

[kalasaurus]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Because he gives a way better pre-battle speech than Anora.

That's not the only reason I made him King, but it's certainly the biggest.

It's the exact same speech, but his delivery certainly is better.

Hmmm, dunno. His voice is certainly less grating. Then again, I'm a stickler for realism, and Anora does actually sound like she's addressing a field full of soldiers, whereas Alistair sounds quite confident that he's wearing a mic.

I just wanna mod where Alistair gives the speech if he's not gonna be king.  (Loghain must be dead obviously). I mean just god I hate Anora's speech.

Odd, I usually leave Alistair in the Wardens and let Anora stay queen and he's always given the speech.  I have heard Anora's speech once.  I'm impressed that she's out there in her armor but I know what you mean.

"Before. Us. Stands. The. Might. Of. The. Dark. Spawn. Horde." 

[WhiteKnyght]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

 In my mind niether he or Anora have much right to the the throne. [although the fact she has ruled for her husband for years puts her ahead.]
Alistair is a bastard and his father never aknowleged him,he has no real claim.

Ferelden has no laws saying a bastard cant inherit the throne. acknowledged or no. All they need to be eligible is to be related to the Royal Family somehow.

And as Maric's son, acknowledged or not, Alistair is a prince.

That is debatable. Bastard sons were not considered to be in line for inheritance in medieval times, and Ferelden certainly seems to have no precedent for allowing it judging by the comments the nobles make during the Landsmeet arc. There seems to be no precedent against it either, however. Ultimately, I suppose whether or not you have a point varies from playthrough to playthrough, depending on player choices. (Unless you meant this to guide them, in which case I'll just say that you're making a pretty shaky claim legally. The only reason Alistair can manage this is because Anora's claim is as shaky.)

Thedas isn't Earth, though. Their politics and taboos don't have to be exactly the same as ours are.

Look at Antiva. It's a nation literally reliant on assassinations for royal succession.

Or Tevinter, where the most powerful blood mage gets to be ruler.

Or Kirkwall, where whoever kisses the most templar ass gets to be the Viscount.

Alistair may be put down for being born out of wedlock, but there's nothing ethically or religiously wrong with it in Thedas' cultures and religions. And if you talk to the guard captain in Denerim, there are a lot of noble bastards serving in the guard because of nepotism.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Ferelden has no laws saying a bastard cant inherit the throne. acknowledged or no. All they need to be eligible is to be related to the Royal Family somehow.

And as Maric's son, acknowledged or not, Alistair is a prince.

That is debatable. Bastard sons were not considered to be in line for inheritance in medieval times, and Ferelden certainly seems to have no precedent for allowing it judging by the comments the nobles make during the Landsmeet arc. There seems to be no precedent against it either, however. Ultimately, I suppose whether or not you have a point varies from playthrough to playthrough, depending on player choices. (Unless you meant this to guide them, in which case I'll just say that you're making a pretty shaky claim legally. The only reason Alistair can manage this is because Anora's claim is as shaky.)

Thedas isn't Earth, though. Their politics and taboos don't have to be exactly the same as ours are.

*snip*

Alistair may be put down for being born out of wedlock, but there's nothing ethically or religiously wrong with it in Thedas' cultures and religions. And if you talk to the guard captain in Denerim, there are a lot of noble bastards serving in the guard because of nepotism.

He doesn't say anything about those noble bastards inheriting, now does he? A better test for the claim would be listening to the nobles in the Gnawed Noble tavern, who (as I alluded to last comment) are not entirely sure they're okay with the precedent set by putting Alistair on the throne. Ceorlic even suggests letting Anora have it before letting a bastard have it, and is not challenged. If that doesn't convince you, a still better test would be Eamon, who is Alistair's strongest supporter, and yet makes clear he would not be suggesting Alistair except that "The unthinkable has happened."

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 24 mai 2013 - 01:52 .

[SerTabris]

Do they actually need anything to be declared the ruler of Ferelden other than the consent of the Landsmeet?  I was under the impression that all of the stuff about the succession was the desires of the nobles attending rather than any codified law, and the rightful ruler was whoever the Landsmeet said it was.

[WhiteKnyght]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Ferelden has no laws saying a bastard cant inherit the throne. acknowledged or no. All they need to be eligible is to be related to the Royal Family somehow.

And as Maric's son, acknowledged or not, Alistair is a prince.

That is debatable. Bastard sons were not considered to be in line for inheritance in medieval times, and Ferelden certainly seems to have no precedent for allowing it judging by the comments the nobles make during the Landsmeet arc. There seems to be no precedent against it either, however. Ultimately, I suppose whether or not you have a point varies from playthrough to playthrough, depending on player choices. (Unless you meant this to guide them, in which case I'll just say that you're making a pretty shaky claim legally. The only reason Alistair can manage this is because Anora's claim is as shaky.)

Thedas isn't Earth, though. Their politics and taboos don't have to be exactly the same as ours are.

*snip*

Alistair may be put down for being born out of wedlock, but there's nothing ethically or religiously wrong with it in Thedas' cultures and religions. And if you talk to the guard captain in Denerim, there are a lot of noble bastards serving in the guard because of nepotism.

He doesn't say anything about those noble bastards inheriting, now does he? A better test for the claim would be listening to the nobles in the Gnawed Noble tavern, who (as I alluded to last comment) are not entirely sure they're okay with the precedent set by putting Alistair on the throne. Ceorlic even suggests letting Anora have it before letting a bastard have it, and is not challenged. If that doesn't convince you, a still better test would be Eamon, who is Alistair's strongest supporter, and yet makes clear he would not be suggesting Alistair except that "The unthinkable has happened."

No, he doesn't. But to be fair, most of the time he was making excuses about why he shouldn't become king. Not once does he say that he couldn't.

And don't you think Arl Eamon would know laws regarding succession better than the boy he forced to sleep in the stables and shipped off to the church to be trained as a templar? Alistair's not exactly in the position to know a lot about politics.

Also your quote of why Eamon wouldn't suggest Alistair isn't because he's a bastard. If you read The Calling, you'll know It's because he promised Maric that he would keep Alistair out of politics. Maric promised Fiona that he would have Alistair raised outside of the court and not be made a pawn of the nobility. Fiona didn't want Alistair to be a pawn of human nobles, or to be a victim of prejudice for being the king's bastard child with an Orlesian Elven Mage.(three things human Fereldans hate the most)

And if you read The Stolen Throne, you'd know why Bann Ceorlic always supports Loghain. Long story short, Ceorlic's father killed Maric's mother, Moira. Maric and Loghain killed Ceorlic's father and the other crooked nobles. They later threatened their children with either death or exile if they didn't swear to support him and Loghain. And Ceorlic's bannorn is close to Gwaren, and he's afraid Loghain would destroy his lands if he didn't side with him.

If there was any sort of law stating that a child of illigitmate birth couldn't be king, someone in the landsmeet would have said so. Especially considering Alistair's claim on the thone is a major part of the game's plot.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 25 mai 2013 - 12:06 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Thedas isn't Earth, though. Their politics and taboos don't have to be exactly the same as ours are.

*snip*

Alistair may be put down for being born out of wedlock, but there's nothing ethically or religiously wrong with it in Thedas' cultures and religions. And if you talk to the guard captain in Denerim, there are a lot of noble bastards serving in the guard because of nepotism.

He doesn't say anything about those noble bastards inheriting, now does he? A better test for the claim would be listening to the nobles in the Gnawed Noble tavern, who (as I alluded to last comment) are not entirely sure they're okay with the precedent set by putting Alistair on the throne. Ceorlic even suggests letting Anora have it before letting a bastard have it, and is not challenged. If that doesn't convince you, a still better test would be Eamon, who is Alistair's strongest supporter, and yet makes clear he would not be suggesting Alistair except that "The unthinkable has happened."

No, he doesn't. But to be fair, most of the time he was making excuses about why he shouldn't become king. Not once does he say that he couldn't.

And don't you think Arl Eamon would know laws regarding succession better than the boy he forced to sleep in the stables and shipped off to the church to be trained as a templar? Alistair's not exactly in the position to know a lot about politics.

Uh, no, I was referring to the guard captain here. The man who is employing the noble bastards for their fathers says nothing about them inheriting, which means this isn't really evidence of Alistair having any claim to the throne. As for Alistair, it seems like his excuses are at least partially stuff he's repeating from Eamon. (If I remember correctly, one of his excuses was that he was told repeatedly that the throne is not meant for him.)

Also your quote of why Eamon wouldn't suggest Alistair isn't because he's a bastard. If you read The Calling, you'll know It's because he promised Maric that he would keep Alistair out of politics. Maric promised Fiona that he would have Alistair raised outside of the court and not be made a pawn of the nobility. Fiona didn't want Alistair to be a pawn of human nobles, or to be a victim of prejudice for being the king's bastard child with an Orlesian Elven Mage.(three things human Fereldans hate the most)

None of this really disproves my point that the Landsmeet is prejudiced against bastards; it's actually more helpful if anything. Nor does having another motive not to suggest Alistair disprove that Eamon himself might be prejudiced against his illegitimate birth.

And if you read The Stolen Throne, you'd know why Bann Ceorlic always supports Loghain. Long story short, Ceorlic's father killed Maric's mother, Moira. Maric and Loghain killed Ceorlic's father and the other crooked nobles. They later threatened their children with either death or exile if they didn't swear to support him and Loghain. And Ceorlic's bannorn is close to Gwaren, and he's afraid Loghain would destroy his lands if he didn't side with him.

My main point was that nobody tells him he's being stupid, and the person he is conversing with (who is demonstratably not afraid of Loghain, by the way) agrees with Ceorlic out loud.

If there was any sort of law stating that a child of illigitmate birth couldn't be king, someone in the landsmeet would have said so. Especially considering Alistair's claim on the thone is a major part of the game's plot.

As Ser Tabris notes, I don't believe there are any laws restricting who can become king. However, from everything we hear from Eamon they seem to typically follow the country's traditions in doing so, in a manner reminiscent of England's Common Law. What I meant by "shaky claim legally" is that from the sound of it, bastard children don't seem to be included as potential heirs with regards to those traditions. I noted that there was no precedent against or for it in my first comment, but that Ceorlic said better the Dowager Queen than a king's bastard and (here is the main reason I mentioned him) was not challenged. Heck, the only reason Ceorlic mentioned it is because the man he was talking to (who is relatively easy to switch to your side) said that's his main objection to Eamon's suggestions. All of this is evidence that bastards were not traditionally considered as even backup heirs, even if Ceorlic's claim might be alternatively explicable.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 mai 2013 - 12:49 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

None of this really disproves my point that the Landsmeet is prejudiced against bastards; it's actually more helpful if anything. Nor does having another motive not to suggest Alistair disprove that Eamon himself might be prejudiced against his illegitimate birth.

My main point was that nobody tells him he's being stupid, and the person he is conversing with (who is demonstratably not afraid of Loghain, by the way) agrees with Ceorlic out loud.

As Ser Tabris notes, I don't believe there are any laws restricting who can become king. However, from everything we hear from Eamon they seem to typically follow the country's traditions in doing so, in a manner reminiscent of England's Common Law. What I meant by "shaky claim legally" is that from the sound of it, bastard children don't seem to be included as potential heirs with regards to those traditions. I noted that there was no precedent against or for it in my first comment, but that Ceorlic said better the Dowager Queen than a king's bastard and (here is the main reason I mentioned him) was not challenged. Heck, the only reason Ceorlic mentioned it is because the man he was talking to (who is relatively easy to switch to your side) said that's his main objection to Eamon's suggestions. All of this is evidence that bastards were not traditionally considered as even backup heirs, even if Ceorlic's claim might be alternatively explicable.

Ceorlic's claim that the Dowager is better than the bastard is also controversial. Considering rumors perist that Anora's barren body is a punishment by the Maker for putting a commoner on the throne. Even though she's Loghain's daughter and he was a Teyrn before she was born.

Also Ceorlic doesn't support Anora if she sides with the Warden. He still votes for Loghain because he's scared of him. Loghain and Maric killed Ceorlic's father and intimidated him on top of his bannorn being near Gwaren

Plus if Eamon thought Alistair's claim for the throne was shaky or weak, he wouldn't have said "we need someone with a stronger claim on the throne than Anora" in reference to Alistair.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

None of this really disproves my point that the Landsmeet is prejudiced against bastards; it's actually more helpful if anything. Nor does having another motive not to suggest Alistair disprove that Eamon himself might be prejudiced against his illegitimate birth.

My main point was that nobody tells him he's being stupid, and the person he is conversing with (who is demonstratably not afraid of Loghain, by the way) agrees with Ceorlic out loud.

As Ser Tabris notes, I don't believe there are any laws restricting who can become king. However, from everything we hear from Eamon they seem to typically follow the country's traditions in doing so, in a manner reminiscent of England's Common Law. What I meant by "shaky claim legally" is that from the sound of it, bastard children don't seem to be included as potential heirs with regards to those traditions. I noted that there was no precedent against or for it in my first comment, but that Ceorlic said better the Dowager Queen than a king's bastard and (here is the main reason I mentioned him) was not challenged. Heck, the only reason Ceorlic mentioned it is because the man he was talking to (who is relatively easy to switch to your side) said that's his main objection to Eamon's suggestions. All of this is evidence that bastards were not traditionally considered as even backup heirs, even if Ceorlic's claim might be alternatively explicable.

Ceorlic's claim that the Dowager is better than the bastard is also controversial. Considering rumors perist that Anora's barren body is a punishment by the Maker for putting a commoner on the throne. Even though she's Loghain's daughter and he was a Teyrn before she was born.

A: This has nothing to do with Alistair's claim.
B: I think there's two conversations with any political content you can overhear in the Gnawed Noble tavern. Both of them seem to have both parties to the conversation agreeing that Anora should rule. So whatever the commoners think, it seems that she's not that controversial among the nobility.

Also Ceorlic doesn't support Anora if she sides with the Warden. He still votes for Loghain because he's scared of him. Loghain and Maric killed Ceorlic's father and intimidated him on top of his bannorn being near Gwaren

As I've mentioned several times, my main reason for mentioning him is that his conversational partner agrees that a bastard oughtn't be king, and that nobody butts in to tell them they're wrong.

Plus if Eamon thought Alistair's claim for the throne was shaky or weak, he wouldn't have said "we need someone with a stronger claim on the throne than Anora" in reference to Alistair.

He didn't say Alistair had a strong claim. He said it was stronger than Anora's, which I suppose it is if you only consider Alistair's status as Maric's son.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 mai 2013 - 02:05 .

[Mike3207]

It is worth mentioning Anora has a considerable amount of political support at the start of the Landsmeet, 3 votes or so-Alistair has none. You really have to do a fair amount of legwork to win the Landsmeet if you don't have Anora's support. That would definitely lead me to think that Anora would have the stronger claim.

[KC_Prototype]

Because Alistair is cool and a great friend. Anora is just a ambitious ****!

[Dabrikishaw]

Foe me, It was more fun playing the "lost heir to the throne" plot with Alistair than anything at first, after that it's pure dislike of Loghain and Anora that keeps them dead.

[wiccame]

Faerunner wrote...

Gamer Ftw wrote...

To be fair the head cooks usually treated medieval servants worse than dirt.
So she might as been equally abusive if they were human.

And yet she only has elven staff to hurl abuse at. Imagine that.

They must have been fairly comfortable around her, as one even calls her a miserable old bat, loud enough for her to hear. if she was that bad I would have thought he would dare not even comment.

[ladyiolanthe]

I actually feel that Alistair has what it takes to be a good king; he just needs nudging since he was raised as a servant boy who slept with the hounds, before being packed off to the Templars. He plays stupid but some of the things he says when the Warden is making some big plot decision put the lie to that. The boy has a head on his shoulders and has developed his own sense of where he stands on things. Everyone teases him about not having a spine, and it's true that he is less than whelming if you don't harden him. However, he did have enough of a spine to realize that he didn't agree with what the Templars teach, and he had the courage to leave them when the opportunity arose.

It's true that, when he first comes into the game, he defers to the Warden even though he has seniority - with his childhood, can you blame him, especially if the Warden is a Cousland? He was never been put into a leadership position so of course it would seem alien or even terrifying to him. But he also provides some insightful advice to the Warden and the other recruits when he's escorting them into the Wilds to collect darkspawn blood. He really turns out well as a king if you harden him. And despite the Landsmeet claiming to decide who'll be king, it is true that for as long as there has been a united Ferelden, there has been a Theirin on the throne (or fighting to get the throne back from Orlesian tyranny).

Modifié par ladyiolanthe, 11 juillet 2013 - 01:34 .