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[Seival]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seival wrote...
A wise man.

Clearly, you're letting your pride get the better of you.

(1) Telling the truth is not a pride.
(2) Sharing my personal opinion is not a pride.

Choose one of those two options you like the most

[dreamgazer]

Seival wrote...

(1) Telling the truth is not a pride.
(2) Sharing my personal opinion is not a pride.

Choose one of those two options you like the most

Your contradicting yourself and I don't think you even know it.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Seival wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seival wrote...
A wise man.

Clearly, you're letting your pride get the better of you.

(1) Telling the truth is not a pride.
(2) Sharing my personal opinion is not a pride.

Choose one of those two options you like the most

Number Two. Since your not telling the truth. You're still being incredibly "prideful" in claiming that you know the truth.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 06 mai 2013 - 10:59 .

[Eryri]

Optimystic_X wrote...

No it's not, not remotely. The principle flaw that led to the cycles is simple - organics try to control synthetics and eventually fail, because synthetics inevitably recognize their flawed nature and consider their orders invalid. Just as the innocent and helpful Geth unit from the consensus archives began ignoring shutdown commands seemingly for no reason.

I would describe the cause of the cycles more as the natural desire for sentient beings to determine their own future. This is a more generally applicable theme in the game, also coming to the fore with the Krogan rebellion. The Council trusted that they could control the Rachni by uplifting the Krogan. They did, but were unprepared for the unintended consequences when the Krogan wished to expand. They then trusted that the Genophage would be a relatively benign way to control the Krogan, but failed to predict the suffering and despair that it would cause them. In the ME universe, every time one group, either synthetic or organic, has tried to control or enslave another, it has led to disaster.

The Control ending trusts that: 
A. The Reapers will be forever happy to be the new Catalyst's obedient servants. 
B. The new Catalyst will forever retain Shepard's sympathy for organic life.

The fact that the Reapers did not rebel against the rule of the old Catalyst is no guarantee that they will remain obedient in the future. They are supposedly sentient beings with wills of their own, and forever is a long time. The Leviathans were confident that they could maintain control of their Intelligence. In picking Control, Shepard must be confident that the new AI he creates with his memories will maintain control of the Reapers. It seems a very similar situation to me.

Pure organics cannot hope to command synthetics long-term, because we are fundamentally inferior to them. Even the odd organic who is considered to be a superior source of orders (like Shepard) is still mortal, and will one day be replaced. Meanwhile, Control and Synthesis work because they address this root flaw - either placing an immortal synthetic in charge of the Reapers who desires to discontinue the cycle, or by removing flawed organics from the equation entirely.

The Catalyst tells you this itself - the Leviathans were flawed organics, who "could not see that their deaths were part of the very solution they required." Simply put, any attempt by organics to use synthetics long-term is doomed to failure, but the advantages of synthetics are so myriad that we will never stop trying and making them. It's a hopeless situation without synthesis (whether gradual or Crucible-induced), and the problem pops up so quickly once we reach a certain technological threshold that gradual synthesis may as well not be an option.

But organics, or rather "post-organics," will still be inferior to synthetics after synthesis. The things that make synthetic life superior to pure organics are their mental acuity, their physical durability, and the speed with which they can self replicate. Synthesis may address the first imbalance with cognitive implants, but do little to alter the other two. Organics would still fundamentally be fragile flesh and blood, needing air, food and water, while things like the Geth would still be made of sturdy metals and polymers and be able to survive in a vacuum. Unless human reproductive biology is radically altered, it will still take 9 months for a child to be born, while the geth, with the proper resources, could rapidly manufacture thousands of new platforms, (or new soldiers), on an assembly line basis. The only organic life that would come close to matching them would be something like the Rachni. If the Geth, or another primarily synthetic race, really wanted to conquer the galaxy, then synthesis would not prevent them. The Reapers could perhaps intervene, but being a peculiar type of cyborg it would be difficult for them to replenish their numbers if any were destroyed in war, since they would no longer be allowed to harvest organics.

Modifié par Eryri, 06 mai 2013 - 11:06 .

[Seival]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seival wrote...

tickle267 wrote...

Seival wrote...

There are only two options: kill your wisdom, so the pride will flourish, or kill your pride, so the wisdom will flourish. They can't coexist, because each forces you to make completely different decisions. Pride is called the sin, and wisdom is called the blessing for the reason.

hmm... what if you have neither?

Let's see. Who has no wisdom nor pride? A fool perhaps? Or completely mindless thing.

And to prevent your subsequent replies: the Catalyst is wise creature, just like its creators. While lesser intelligent beings are mostly the ones who lose each fight with their own pride all the time.

The Catalyst is not wise. It's a machine, a program. I'd call it less sophisticated than EDI. EDI is a person, able to change, able to come to respect life, all life, and see something better. 

The Catalyst cannot do so.

Also, I recall the Leviathans' pride being their downfall. It was their pride that drove them to demand worship. It was their pride that drove them to create the Catalyst to learn why they were not getting worshipped. It was their pride that the Catalyst recognized as impossible to reconcile with synthetic life. It was their pride that made them believe they were infallible.

Also, this "prideful" being just destroyed the Reapers. This "prideful" being won against "wisdom".

And your full of intense pride to claim that your way of "wisdom" is the only way.

More than pride, in fact...

Machine is wise if it was programmed to be wise. The Catalyst is wise. Heh, it's much more easy to be wise, if you are a machine. Pride comes from our emotions, and we have to control them in order to be wise. Sometimes this is quite hard to accomplish. But machines have no such problem.

Leviathans wanted to help lesser beings and themselves. Pride can't help, only wisdom can. Leviathans are wise. If Leviathans were pride, they would control all lesser beings directly, giving them no freedoms at all, so lesser beings would never build machines that eventually destroy them (in the cost of mindless existence).

Modifié par Seival, 06 mai 2013 - 11:09 .

[Tron Mega]

starchild doesnt ruin just the ending by showing up, he ruins the game after every plot planet too showing up in my dreams. he ruins the intro because he reminds me of the awfull ending. MEHEM doesnt include star child and is easily the best ending according to ME fans.

i think its safe to say i dont play ME3 almost solely because starchild shows up in the game. removeing starchild would get me to play the game more, simply as that.

[Seival]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seival wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seival wrote...
A wise man.

Clearly, you're letting your pride get the better of you.

(1) Telling the truth is not a pride.
(2) Sharing my personal opinion is not a pride.

Choose one of those two options you like the most

Number Two. Since your not telling the truth. You're still being incredibly "prideful" in claiming that you know the truth.

Which is just your personal opinion

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Seival wrote...
Machine is wise if it was programmed to be wise. The Catalyst is wise. Heh, it's much more easy to be wise, if you are a machine. Pride comes from our emotions, and we have to control them in order to be wise. Sometimes this is quite hard to accomplish. But machines have no such problem.

Leviathans wanted to help lesser beings and themselves. Pride can't help, only wisdom can. Leviathans are wise. If Leviathans were pride, they would control all lesser beings directly, giving them no freedoms at all, so lesser beings would never build machines that eventually destroy them, is the cost of mindless existence.

I don't believe it is wise. I disagree entirely. Pride is not inherently bad. Wisdom is not the same as a machine. If a machine cannot feel, it cannot be wise. It can only do. 

And you know where the "wisdom" of Leviathan came from? It came from their pride. It was their desire to be worshipped and adulated for being "perfect".

The Leviathans are not greater than us. If anything, they're lesser than us because they were the ones who couldn't keep their pride in check.

You are false.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Seival wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seival wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seival wrote...
A wise man.

Clearly, you're letting your pride get the better of you.

(1) Telling the truth is not a pride.
(2) Sharing my personal opinion is not a pride.

Choose one of those two options you like the most

Number Two. Since your not telling the truth. You're still being incredibly "prideful" in claiming that you know the truth.

Which is just your personal opinion

The same as yours. That's all anything you say is. There is not truth in it. Maybe there is for you. But there is none for me, or for anyone else who so chooses.

You don't understand. There is no "objective" final truth. 

We are alive. Life makes its own truth.

[AlanC9]

Lord_Frostwind wrote...

My problem with the reaper throughout ME3 was that they lost the horror element they cultivated in ME1 and 2. Suddenly, you get the Catalyst at the end trying to give you some sort of sympathy or explanation for what the Reapers are. You're an insect, a nuisance, are they going to even notice until you activate the cruicible? We already had the Prothean VI that we had to chase across the galaxy, even a marionette Anderson or Illusive Man being controlled by the crucible, ala ME 1 would have been more meaningful for me. In short, it's like seeing the zipper on Cthulhu's costume.
.

The italed bit is a horror element. And the Catalyst doesn't change because he doesn't show up until after the Crucible docks.

Modifié par AlanC9, 06 mai 2013 - 11:18 .

[Seival]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seival wrote...
Machine is wise if it was programmed to be wise. The Catalyst is wise. Heh, it's much more easy to be wise, if you are a machine. Pride comes from our emotions, and we have to control them in order to be wise. Sometimes this is quite hard to accomplish. But machines have no such problem.

Leviathans wanted to help lesser beings and themselves. Pride can't help, only wisdom can. Leviathans are wise. If Leviathans were pride, they would control all lesser beings directly, giving them no freedoms at all, so lesser beings would never build machines that eventually destroy them, is the cost of mindless existence.

I don't believe it is wise. I disagree entirely. Pride is not inherently bad. Wisdom is not the same as a machine. If a machine cannot feel, it cannot be wise. It can only do. 

And you know where the "wisdom" of Leviathan came from? It came from their pride. It was their desire to be worshipped and adulated for being "perfect".

The Leviathans are not greater than us. If anything, they're lesser than us because they were the ones who couldn't keep their pride in check.

You are false.

So misguided...

Can't accept the fact that there is always someone greater than you? You clearly watched/read too many badly written stories about humans supremacy. Good stories like Mass Effect Trilogy conjure so many thoughts that scare you, and conflict with your ghost.

[The Night Mammoth]

Define 'greater'.

[AresKeith]

Seival wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seival wrote...
Machine is wise if it was programmed to be wise. The Catalyst is wise. Heh, it's much more easy to be wise, if you are a machine. Pride comes from our emotions, and we have to control them in order to be wise. Sometimes this is quite hard to accomplish. But machines have no such problem.

Leviathans wanted to help lesser beings and themselves. Pride can't help, only wisdom can. Leviathans are wise. If Leviathans were pride, they would control all lesser beings directly, giving them no freedoms at all, so lesser beings would never build machines that eventually destroy them, is the cost of mindless existence.

I don't believe it is wise. I disagree entirely. Pride is not inherently bad. Wisdom is not the same as a machine. If a machine cannot feel, it cannot be wise. It can only do. 

And you know where the "wisdom" of Leviathan came from? It came from their pride. It was their desire to be worshipped and adulated for being "perfect".

The Leviathans are not greater than us. If anything, they're lesser than us because they were the ones who couldn't keep their pride in check.

You are false.

So misguided...

Can't accept the fact that there is always someone greater than you? You clearly watched/read too many badly written stories about humans supremacy. Good stories like Mass Effect Trilogy conjure so many thoughts that scare you, and conflict with your ghost.

Really Seival, this comment shows that you have nothing to say but try to insult

[Seival]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seival wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seival wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seival wrote...
A wise man.

Clearly, you're letting your pride get the better of you.

(1) Telling the truth is not a pride.
(2) Sharing my personal opinion is not a pride.

Choose one of those two options you like the most

Number Two. Since your not telling the truth. You're still being incredibly "prideful" in claiming that you know the truth.

Which is just your personal opinion

The same as yours. That's all anything you say is. There is not truth in it. Maybe there is for you. But there is none for me, or for anyone else who so chooses.

You don't understand. There is no "objective" final truth. 

We are alive. Life makes its own truth.

No, no. It's you who don't understand. There is only one truth. But intelligent beings' opinions on what is truth, and what isn't may differ.

Modifié par Seival, 06 mai 2013 - 11:30 .

[Mcfly616]

Tron Mega wrote...

MEHEM....is easily the best ending according to ME fans.

Lol

[Argolas]

dreamgazer wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seival wrote...
A wise man.

Clearly, you're letting your pride get the better of you.

Dammit, you beat me to it.

You're both late

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

Pride and wisdom cannot coexist in one person.

My picture is 100% correct.

Those two statements look awesome together. It's almost as good as

Auld Wulf wrote...

And of wisdom, I have plenty.

[Seival]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Tron Mega wrote...

MEHEM....is easily the best ending according to ME fans.

Lol

+1

But personally I would say ROFL instead of lol

MEHEM not just ruins the ending, but is also executed VERY poorly. Good thing it's just a fan-fiction

Modifié par Seival, 06 mai 2013 - 11:43 .

[AresKeith]

Seival wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Tron Mega wrote...

MEHEM....is easily the best ending according to ME fans.

Lol

+1

But personally I would say ROFL instead of lol

MEHEM not just ruins the ending, but is also executed VERY poorly. Good thing it's just a fan-fiction

lol that's a good laugh with this comment

Modifié par AresKeith, 06 mai 2013 - 11:44 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Seival wrote...
So misguided...

Can't accept the fact that there is always someone greater than you? You clearly watched/read too many badly written stories about humans supremacy. Good stories like Mass Effect Trilogy conjure so many thoughts that scare you, and conflict with your ghost.

I'm misguided? 

I can accept if someone is objectively greater than me at a skill. Or many skills.

I'm not the best Soldier in the US Army. I'm not the best Second Lieutenant in the US Army. I'm not the fastest swimmer, or the strongest lifter, or the smartest person. I'm not even the best video game player.

But I'm not any lesser than them as a person. I'm not any greater a person because of my skills.

I don't believe in "human supremacy". I am insulted that you even think that. Even more so that you think I'm scared of Mass Effect because of your invalid interpretation of me.

Seriously are you some kind of Soviet holdover or something? Stalin's grandchild perhaps? Hell, you sound like some pre-Bolshevik czar who thinks he's got the right to rule over the masses or some crap.

There is no such thing as human supremacy. That said, there is no such thing as Asari supremacy. Or Turian Supremacy. Or Leviathan supremacy. Or Reaper Supremacy. Or Catalyst supremacy.

There is nothing greater or lesser in the inherent worth of a person from their character. A Leviathan creature is bigger than me, smarter than me, stronger than me, and a lot older than me.

But it's not "better" than me. It's not "greater" than me. It has no more worth or value as an individual than me. That's why I'm insulted by their assertions. That's why I'm insulted by your assertions.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 06 mai 2013 - 11:47 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Seival wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seival wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seival wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seival wrote...
A wise man.

Clearly, you're letting your pride get the better of you.

(1) Telling the truth is not a pride.
(2) Sharing my personal opinion is not a pride.

Choose one of those two options you like the most

Number Two. Since your not telling the truth. You're still being incredibly "prideful" in claiming that you know the truth.

Which is just your personal opinion

The same as yours. That's all anything you say is. There is not truth in it. Maybe there is for you. But there is none for me, or for anyone else who so chooses.

You don't understand. There is no "objective" final truth. 

We are alive. Life makes its own truth.

No, no. It's you who don't understand. There is only one truth. But intelligent beings' opinions on what is truth, and what isn't may differ.

The only truth to life is that we all die. One day or another, one way or another, death will happen.

The only truth you have is the one you make. You make your truth. I make mine. Our truths our clearly not the same. Yours is right for you, mine is right for me.

[Seboist]

ME2 is what destroyed the franchise with it's pointlessness forcing ME3 to be two games in one(rallying allies/finding a means to stop the reapers + the war) and requiring a deus ex machina(crucible) and Reaper negative IQ for Shepard to win at all.

Starchild and reaper motivation were merely the mercy killing to a franchise that was turned into a blind,deaf and dumb quadriplegic by that POS ME2.

[Argolas]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Seival wrote...
So misguided...

Can't accept the fact that there is always someone greater than you? You clearly watched/read too many badly written stories about humans supremacy. Good stories like Mass Effect Trilogy conjure so many thoughts that scare you, and conflict with your ghost.

I'm misguided? 

I can accept if someone is objectively greater than me at a skill. Or many skills.

I'm not the best Soldier in the US Army. I'm not the best Second Lieutenant in the US Army. I'm not the fastest swimmer, or the strongest lifter, or the smartest person. I'm not even the best video game player.

But I'm not any lesser than them as a person. I'm not any greater a person because of my skills.

I don't believe in "human supremacy". I am insulted that you even think that. Even more so that you think I'm scared of Mass Effect because of your invalid interpretation of me.

Seriously are you some kind of Soviet holdover or something? Stalin's grandchild perhaps? Hell, you sound like some pre-Bolshevik czar who thinks he's got the right to rule over the masses or some crap.

There is no such thing as human supremacy. That said, there is no such thing as Asari supremacy. Or Turian Supremacy. Or Leviathan supremacy. Or Reaper Supremacy. Or Catalyst supremacy.

There is nothing greater or lesser in the inherent worth of a person from their character. A Leviathan creature is bigger than me, smarter than me, stronger than me, and a lot older than me.

But it's not "better" than me. It's not "greater" than me. That's why I'm insulted by their assertions. That's why I'm insulted by your assertions.

Don't bother. Putting people into boxes is one of the favorite hobbies of some BSNers.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Seboist wrote...

ME2 is what destroyed the franchise with it's pointlessness forcing ME3 to be two games in one(rallying allies/finding a means to stop the reapers + the war) and requiring a deus ex machina(crucible) and Reaper negative IQ for Shepard to win at all.

Starchild and reaper motivation were merely the mercy killing to a franchise that was turned into a blind,deaf and dumb quadriplegic by that POS ME2.

I disagree. I believe ME2 was the best game in the franchise. For me, it's the best game of all time.

I don't get your argument. ME2 didn't force ME3 to be anything, except logical and hopefully following the same narrative.

There was no pointlessness to it. That stemmed from ME3.

[Steelcan]

Insanity all around?

[Steelcan]

Had ME3 followed up with the CB decesion no one would be calling ME2 pointless