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Why and How The Star-Child Broke Mass Effect.


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#326
Argolas

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Seival wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Sure there is.

Knowing the solution doesn't mean it's easy to implement.  

I mean, halfway through Fellowship of the Ring, we know how to destroy the One Ring:  Take it to Mordor and toss it back into the fires from whence it came.

Oh, no!  Where's the drama for the other 2.5 books!


I agree. Hell, the concept of a Chekov's gun would be pretty good. I think the idea of turning their indoctrination against them (like we did with Saren) will work best. Weaken them and destroy them.


I'm glad BioWare never listens to suggestions like this.

Story changed in accordance to haters' feedback would be pathetic... Or even worse than pathetic.


Not everyone who criticizes is a hater. I always try to be constructive when I make a serious post.

#327
The Night Mammoth

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Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

I'm glad BioWare never listens to suggestions like this.

Story changed in accordance to haters' feedback would be pathetic... Or even worse than pathetic.


Not everyone who criticizes is a hater. I always try to be constructive when I make a serious post.


Seival's idea of constructive criticism is criticism which isn't, well, critical. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 07 mai 2013 - 10:54 .


#328
OdanUrr

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Epic777 wrote...

The ending is, in fact, thematically consistent with the theme of ME3. Whether I like it or not, the theme of ME3 was centered around sacrifice. You can potentially lose old friends and save or doom entire species, and this is before we ever trigger the Crucible. When we get to the Crucible we're asked to sacrifice the Geth* (Destroy) or sacrifice ourselves (Control). As for Synthesis, it's so vague that the sacrifice could be anything from our free will to our individuality. In any case, I must disagree with you that every decision affects the galaxy "down to the essence of being." To my mind, only Synthesis does that.


How can sacrifice be the theme of ME3 when the whole reason for the cycles is based on a synthetic vs organic conflict? Thats why the Catalyst was created, that is why the reapers were made, surely that must be the theme of ME3?


It may be why the Catalyst was created but that really has no bearing on the theme of ME3. We see more of the conflict between the Quarians and the Geth, yes, but this has been a standing issue since ME1 so I wouldn't call it the "theme" of ME3.

#329
Epic777

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OdanUrr wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

The ending is, in fact, thematically consistent with the theme of ME3. Whether I like it or not, the theme of ME3 was centered around sacrifice. You can potentially lose old friends and save or doom entire species, and this is before we ever trigger the Crucible. When we get to the Crucible we're asked to sacrifice the Geth* (Destroy) or sacrifice ourselves (Control). As for Synthesis, it's so vague that the sacrifice could be anything from our free will to our individuality. In any case, I must disagree with you that every decision affects the galaxy "down to the essence of being." To my mind, only Synthesis does that.


How can sacrifice be the theme of ME3 when the whole reason for the cycles is based on a synthetic vs organic conflict? Thats why the Catalyst was created, that is why the reapers were made, surely that must be the theme of ME3?


It may be why the Catalyst was created but that really has no bearing on the theme of ME3. We see more of the conflict between the Quarians and the Geth, yes, but this has been a standing issue since ME1 so I wouldn't call it the "theme" of ME3.


It could argued if that is the case, then ME3 stumbles at the end. Shepard doesn't really sacrifice himself/herself. Sacrfice is only a sacrifice when the one making it can easily ride off into the sunset and live to see tomorrow but chooses not to. In near every ending your sacrfice is initiated by the Catalyst as he is the one who is pitching the ideas to you.

It could also be argued that ME3 was about unity. You have to unite the various races to fight the reapers

Modifié par Epic777, 07 mai 2013 - 01:46 .


#330
Xamufam

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Epic777 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

Epic777 wrote...

The ending is, in fact, thematically consistent with the theme of ME3. Whether I like it or not, the theme of ME3 was centered around sacrifice. You can potentially lose old friends and save or doom entire species, and this is before we ever trigger the Crucible. When we get to the Crucible we're asked to sacrifice the Geth* (Destroy) or sacrifice ourselves (Control). As for Synthesis, it's so vague that the sacrifice could be anything from our free will to our individuality. In any case, I must disagree with you that every decision affects the galaxy "down to the essence of being." To my mind, only Synthesis does that.


How can sacrifice be the theme of ME3 when the whole reason for the cycles is based on a synthetic vs organic conflict? Thats why the Catalyst was created, that is why the reapers were made, surely that must be the theme of ME3?


It may be why the Catalyst was created but that really has no bearing on the theme of ME3. We see more of the conflict between the Quarians and the Geth, yes, but this has been a standing issue since ME1 so I wouldn't call it the "theme" of ME3.


It could argued if that is the case, then ME3 stumbles at the end. Shepard doesn't really sacrifice himself/herself. Sacrfice is only a sacrifice when the one making it can easily ride off into the sunset and live to see tomorrow but chooses not to. In near every ending your sacrfice is initiated by the Catalyst as he is the one who is pitching the ideas to you.

It could also be argued that ME3 was about unity. You have to unite the various races to fight the reapers


read this
social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/355/index/16621390/3#16624681

#331
AlanC9

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Epic777 wrote...
It could argued if that is the case, then ME3 stumbles at the end. Shepard doesn't really sacrifice himself/herself. Sacrfice is only a sacrifice when the one making it can easily ride off into the sunset and live to see tomorrow but chooses not to. In near every ending your sacrfice is initiated by the Catalyst as he is the one who is pitching the ideas to you.


Right. While the design intent seems to have been for Shepard to be able to survive if he is willing to make a certain decision (according to a pre-EC tweet by Patrick Weekes), in-game Shepard doesn't know he can live through Destroy. So picking something else to avoid the consequences of Destroy isn't really a sacrifice in-character.

#332
Morlath

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Epic777 wrote...

It could argued if that is the case, then ME3 stumbles at the end. Shepard doesn't really sacrifice himself/herself. Sacrfice is only a sacrifice when the one making it can easily ride off into the sunset and live to see tomorrow but chooses not to. In near every ending your sacrfice is initiated by the Catalyst as he is the one who is pitching the ideas to you.

It could also be argued that ME3 was about unity. You have to unite the various races to fight the reapers


I agree on the unity but not about what your definition of a sacrifice is.

Thane sacrificed himself to save the councillor.It doesn't matter that he was dying, he still made the sacrifice. At the end of the game Shepard is in a no-way back situation, he is in effect going to die no matter what. The sacrifice is then does he do so for the galaxy or does he sit back and starve to death as the galaxy burns because he refuses to believe in any of the Catalyst options.

#333
MASSEFFECTfanforlife101

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MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

Nothing was broken.


Care to tell us why? 

Or are you going to take the Brovikk approach and insult?


Well, I say this because I don't see it. I'm not blind either. It is just my opinion and I request that I won't be attacked because of it.  I dislike the catalyst for what it is doing, and what it's been doing for God knows how long. I don't think that it broke anything in Mass Effect. I just don't feel the same as others do. I don't see anything broken because of my opinion. What's the big deal?

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 07 mai 2013 - 05:31 .


#334
SpamBot2000

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Wow, 14 pages. I feel sufficiently familiar with the arguments to skip reading them, and just comment on the OP.

I notice there is a suggestion of Ol' Harby presenting some choices to the player. But why end the game on some "epic" choice at all? Various endings should just flow from the choices made during the game. The "choose your epilogue" thing is a false choice, meant to break up the fictional setting, that's all.

I recall Warren Spector once meditating on choice in games, saying that a choice in a game is meaningful to the extent that the player has to live with the consequences of their choices. The problem with the final choice is that we never get to live with the consequences in the game, so we have to live with them outside of it. For someone who can't accept any of the choices, this is a problem. It's not like reading a book or seeing a movie that had a twist ending. This is a series that has solicited our direct participation and identification over a period of years. That makes it different. How exactly we are still in the process of determining.

Before anyone with a self-awarded honorary doctorate in the fine arts launches into the whole song and dance of how totally deep it is to elicit a reaction, I'm just gonna point out that standing on the street and randomly punching people in the face will elicit a reaction too. Sucker punches that violate established norms for shock value do, but they usually end up alienating the audience from whatever the practitioner of the pugilistic approach theoretically wishes to convey.

Bottom line: Not only is the Kid unnecessary (and indeed game-breakingly awful), so is this "choice" he is pushing.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 07 mai 2013 - 06:45 .


#335
Faust1979

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The Star Child is part of the reapers and part of the story was explaining what the reapers are and why they are doing this. Lots of bad guys in stories always say what they are doing is beyond someone's capabilities to understand and that is never the case. They don't kill everyone, they destroy those that fight back and change everyone else. This was shown in the second game It's like people that hate the ending ME3 didn't even pay attention to some of the plot points in the second game when they started explaining the true nature of the Reapers and what they are really doing.  The Star Child is a cool twist and it does work well within the ME universe

Modifié par Faust1979, 07 mai 2013 - 06:44 .


#336
SinerAthin

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"The wrong man in the right place is all it takes to create a disaster."

#337
Seival

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Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Sure there is.

Knowing the solution doesn't mean it's easy to implement.  

I mean, halfway through Fellowship of the Ring, we know how to destroy the One Ring:  Take it to Mordor and toss it back into the fires from whence it came.

Oh, no!  Where's the drama for the other 2.5 books!


I agree. Hell, the concept of a Chekov's gun would be pretty good. I think the idea of turning their indoctrination against them (like we did with Saren) will work best. Weaken them and destroy them.


I'm glad BioWare never listens to suggestions like this.

Story changed in accordance to haters' feedback would be pathetic... Or even worse than pathetic.


Not everyone who criticizes is a hater. I always try to be constructive when I make a serious post.


The ones who just criticize and make constructive suggestions are not haters.

All constructive suggestions already found their way into the game via official DLCs. The rest are not constructive suggestions.

Modifié par Seival, 07 mai 2013 - 08:23 .


#338
Wayning_Star

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I find it confusing that folks are still fighting the reapers? There is the slightest chance of saving the harvested races, as the trusted catalyst proclaims. To destroy them would be very bad..very.

Probably the worse thing a Shepard could do to stop the reaper threat.. just say'n

(and you know I'm correct..)

#339
Yestare7

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Wayning_Star wrote...

I find it confusing that folks are still fighting the reapers? There is the slightest chance of saving the harvested races, as the trusted catalyst proclaims. To destroy them would be very bad..very.

Probably the worse thing a Shepard could do to stop the reaper threat.. just say'n

(and you know I'm correct..)



troll

#340
KaiserShep

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Seival wrote...
All constructive suggestions already found their way into the game via official DLCs. The rest are not constructive suggestions.


Are you suggesting that the logic in the resolution is infallible?

#341
Guest_Data7_*

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Wayning_Star wrote...

I find it confusing that folks are still fighting the reapers? There is the slightest chance of saving the harvested races, as the trusted catalyst proclaims. To destroy them would be very bad..very.

Probably the worse thing a Shepard could do to stop the reaper threat.. just say'n

(and you know I'm correct..)

It's like when javik had to kill his whole crew.
Get them before they get you.

Zombies/Borg/Cybermen are a form of preservation (a poor excuse, if you ask me, someone pick up these entrails!)
Yet I would still shoot the crap out of them as opposed to being zombiefied. That process looks kind of painful!

And just a note; Watching what happened to Kelly also looked fairly painful. I'd fight Reapers against that. Seems pretty logical people are still fighting the reapers instead of getting processed through a blender in order to have a huge lobotomized metal husk.
Most of the Organics in those Reaper forms didn't choose to be immortal machines anyway. So I don't feel to bad killing them either.
(and if they did choose, well, they were indoctrinated~)

XD

#342
johnj1979

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It not just the Star Child that breaks Shepard Mass Effect story it is most of the story of Mass Effect 3 that goes against what has previous gone before it. The Star Child with the three Reaper endings is just adding insult to injury.

#343
Village_Idiot

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Seival wrote...

All constructive suggestions already found their way into the game via official DLCs. The rest are not constructive suggestions.


Wait, what?

#344
xlegionx

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Shadrach 88 wrote...

Seival wrote...

All constructive suggestions already found their way into the game via official DLCs. The rest are not constructive suggestions.


Wait, what?


Yeah, I fail to see any proof of this. many things that a large number of fans asked BW to change in a constructive way were not added. Tali's face fully rendered? nope. An alternative to the current endings that isn't insulting? nope. getting rid of starchild? nope

#345
KaiserShep

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johnj1979 wrote...

It not just the Star Child that breaks Shepard Mass Effect story it is most of the story of Mass Effect 3 that goes against what has previous gone before it. The Star Child with the three Reaper endings is just adding insult to injury.


Most of the story...how? Most of the story of Mass Effect 3 involves rallying forces to fight the reapers. There's nothing particularly game-breaking about that. The Tuchanka and Rannoch missions are arguably the best things about the game sans DLC, and they occupy the majority of the plot. A cohesive narrative to resolve all of these things coming together would have kept the game completely solid, regardless of some of the niggles in between. 

Technically, only two of the main endings can be regarded as "reaper" endings ;)

#346
Seival

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KaiserShep wrote...

Seival wrote...
All constructive suggestions already found their way into the game via official DLCs. The rest are not constructive suggestions.


Are you suggesting that the logic in the resolution is infallible?


Do you see any upcoming official DLCs around?

Shepard's story is over as over can be.

BioWare employees are not stupid. They obviously made the right decisions about ME3, and the trilogy in general. Game development happens in tight timelines, and devs don't have time to waste on something unconstructive or minor (in this context minor also means unconstructive).

#347
Wayning_Star

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Data7 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

I find it confusing that folks are still fighting the reapers? There is the slightest chance of saving the harvested races, as the trusted catalyst proclaims. To destroy them would be very bad..very.

Probably the worse thing a Shepard could do to stop the reaper threat.. just say'n

(and you know I'm correct..)

It's like when javik had to kill his whole crew.
Get them before they get you.

Zombies/Borg/Cybermen are a form of preservation (a poor excuse, if you ask me, someone pick up these entrails!)
Yet I would still shoot the crap out of them as opposed to being zombiefied. That process looks kind of painful!

And just a note; Watching what happened to Kelly also looked fairly painful. I'd fight Reapers against that. Seems pretty logical people are still fighting the reapers instead of getting processed through a blender in order to have a huge lobotomized metal husk.
Most of the Organics in those Reaper forms didn't choose to be immortal machines anyway. So I don't feel to bad killing them either.
(and if they did choose, well, they were indoctrinated~)

XD


that's the difference, Shep does it, the reapers do NOT... that's what I'm talking about. Shepard survives to be .. that?

What is that?

#348
Village_Idiot

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Seival wrote...

Do you see any upcoming official DLCs around?

Shepard's story is over as over can be.

BioWare employees are not stupid. They obviously made the right decisions about ME3, and the trilogy in general. Game development happens in tight timelines, and devs don't have time to waste on something unconstructive or minor (in this context minor also means unconstructive).


Not to be rude, but this is possibly the best example of insane troll logic I've ever seen.

You're basically saying BW is utterly infallible. I have a lot of respect for the devs, but I'd never go THAT far.

#349
Wayning_Star

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Seival wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

Seival wrote...
All constructive suggestions already found their way into the game via official DLCs. The rest are not constructive suggestions.


Are you suggesting that the logic in the resolution is infallible?


Do you see any upcoming official DLCs around?

Shepard's story is over as over can be.

BioWare employees are not stupid. They obviously made the right decisions about ME3, and the trilogy in general. Game development happens in tight timelines, and devs don't have time to waste on something unconstructive or minor (in this context minor also means unconstructive).


the writers for Bioware are confusing, in any event. They could of explained the situation better. I'd submit that they left too much to speculation, for a science fiction story. The star gazer scene is the most enigmatic version of 'just in case' I've ever seen, to be honest. It deflates the nature of revelation.Image IPB

#350
johnj1979

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Shadrach 88 wrote...

Seival wrote...

All constructive suggestions already found their way into the game via official DLCs. The rest are not constructive suggestions.


Wait, what?


What Mass Effect 3 was this guy playing because is not Mass Effect 3. Nothing in the DLC was added to example Mass Effect 3