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[P. Domi]

Loved those motivational pictures.

This may have mentioned earlier, but the game fails to give you some important conversation options in two critical moments where you can make your case that sysnthetics and organics don't need to be at each others' throats ad eternum.

- the Reaper destroyer says "The battle for Rannoch, disproves your assertion", regardless of the outcome. I have always brokered a peace between Quarians and Geth, Legion even sacrifices itself to seal this peace and provide synthetics with a very 'organic' quality, such as individual awareness (a theme that is also treated in BSG). 
To broker this peace is no a small feat, with conditions dating back  to some ME 2 quests and conversations, the game gives it almost no emphasis, except for getting more War Assets by combining their forces.

- In second place, there is a dialogue option that I have always missed, from the very first night I finished the game: the ghost does not account for your solving the Quarian-Geth war, nor does it let you mention how, through conversations and careful interactions with EDI and Joker, you have both managed to make EDI more understanding of organics and also let her experience appreciation from the Normandy crew. In turn, she concedes she would eager to sacrifice herself for the sake of the Joker and the crew, that she really considers them all as shipmates. EDI could have become the number one advocate for organics and for co-existence, but her development is a no-factor in the infamous dialogue.

These are feats that can only achieved by playing the game carefully with imported savegames, exploring dialogue after all missions (on the Normandy, while in the Citadel, etc.). There's almost no 'reward' for it, but have really been presented to the player as evidence against what the Reapers are doing.

Modifié par pablodomi, 08 mai 2013 - 10:40 .

[Yestare7]

Argolas wrote...

Catalyst, Reapers and everything they stand for us wiped out of the galaxy. What remeins, their technology, is damaged. By fixing it, organics master said technology and make it their own. Destroy is the ultimate way to prove that the Catalyst doesn't solve the problem, it is the problem.

Can I kiss you now?

***

Catalyst: Sovereign, what the hell is wrong with this cycle?
Sovereign: Excuse me master?
Caty: Those synthetics haven't attacked yet, they have been doing nothing for 300 years!!
Sovy: It seems they don't want any harm to organics.
Caty: That is not acceptable. Go and convince them to kill organics!
Sovy: Isn't our duty to avoid synthetics from killing organics?
Caty: If synthetics don't attack organics then my existence isn't needed. And I want to exist.



Y

Modifié par Yestare7, 08 mai 2013 - 10:03 .

[xlegionx]

Here is the most inherent flaw in the Catalyst's logic:

"You have choice. More than you know. The fact that you are standing here, the first organic ever, proves it. But it also proves my solution won't work anymore."

So if its current solution no longer works, it has to find another one, right? but what if Shepard refuses the choices the Catalyst presents to him? it just goes right back to the same solution that it itself admitted does not work. Kind of like Seival, it ignores facts that are standing right in front of them

[Argolas]

Yestare7 wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Catalyst, Reapers and everything they stand for us wiped out of the galaxy. What remeins, their technology, is damaged. By fixing it, organics master said technology and make it their own. Destroy is the ultimate way to prove that the Catalyst doesn't solve the problem, it is the problem.

Can I kiss you now?

***

Catalyst: Sovereign, what the hell is wrong with this cycle?
Sovereign: Excuse me master?
Caty: Those synthetics haven't attacked yet, they have been doing nothing for 300 years!!
Sovy: It seems they don't want any harm to organics.
Caty: That is not acceptable. Go and convince them to kill organics!
Sovy: Isn't our duty to avoid synthetics from killing organics?
Caty: If synthetics don't attack organics then my existence isn't needed. And I want to exist.



Y

It's always nice to see completely sensible and non-circular reaper logic in action.

Synthetics will always want to kill organics (or else we me make them want to) and Synthetics will always win (or else we help them). It is not a thing you can comprehend.

[AcidwireX]

David7204 wrote...

The Crucible wasn't a potential solution, it was a certain solution. No reasonable player would seriously think the Crucible was going to go to waste and end up being worthless after the narrative spent so much focus on it. It was effectively certain to players that the Crucible was going to stop the Reapers somehow, and some unknown elements were going to play a part.

From the instant the Crucible was mentioned, I expected it to backfire and actually be a reaper trap.

Because its too good to be true. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought this.

[Yestare7]

Argolas wrote... It is not a thing you can comprehend.

Always make me think of this:

www.youtube.com/watch

[PinkysPain]

AcidwireX wrote...
From the instant the Crucible was mentioned, I expected it to backfire and actually be a reaper trap.

I just groaned as the realization hit me that yes, they could do worse than ripping off the A-Team movie after all ... a macguffin five minutes into the third part of a trilogy, stay classy guys.

Didn't expect for them to do something as silly as introduce a last minute alternate antagonist AND protagonist in the story though ... I've said it before, the starchild could have been the greatest antagonist ever if they would have given us the chance to stomp over everything he ever believed in while forging our own path to triumph in the EC.

ME3 had a lot of problems, but in the end the brat represented it all ... if I could have made him cry in impotent rage it would have made it all better ... instead I'm the one doing so (except for the control I have over the few bucks I have to spend on computer games).

Modifié par PinkysPain, 08 mai 2013 - 10:22 .

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

@Seival, I'm going to show you why the Catalyst is wrong.

The Catalyst relies on an absolutist statement, "All organic life will be destroyed by synthetic creations". That is the fundamental truth to the Catalyst is the reason why he acts the way he does.

This assertion is wrong. The cycles have progressively become more and more advanced and capable. The Protheans were the first cycle we know of to buck the trend of the Synthetic/Organic extinctions. This became even more pronounced when the current cycle was able to successfully unite organics and synthetics in a common cause, or destroy synthetic creations. In fact the current cycle bucks the trend even further by reaching the point where even the Reapers are not the death of the galaxy. With the Crucible we have reached the point where we do not need the Reapers anymore. The Catalysts's "problem" might have existed under the Leviathans, but it no longer does. It does not apply to our cycle, we have thrown off the shackles of the cycles and have achieved organic dominance over synthetics. That is why Control and Synthesis are unnecessary to keep the peace, we can do it on our own.

Furthermore the Catalyst does not develop the paths for you, he lets you choose, but Destroy is not cooperating with him, it is the anti-thesis of his entire existence, he allows you to pick it but he is not capable of thinking it will result in peace.

Battle for Rannoch disproves your assumption.

The Reapers were never "the death of the galaxy". They created more lives than they consumed.

Crucible and current cycle are the Catalyst's achievements. Without Cycled Harvests the Crucible wouldn't appear and wouldn't evolve. Without Cycled Harvests current cycle wouldn't exist, Shepard wouldn't exist.

Destroy is one of the paths developed for you. Otherwise, the Catalyst wouldn't allow it, and wouldn't even tell about it.

The Catalyst isn't wrong at all. It serves its purpose, just like Leviathans said.

[Steelcan]

The Reaper on Rannoch is a Reaper. Do you really think he's going to disagree with the Catalyst?

The Reapers killed trillions, then liquified their remains, and call that "life".

The Crucible is not the Catalysts's achivement, he didnt design it or encourage its deployment. Destroy is the path of resisting the Reapers, saying "screw you" to them, so is Refuse, but in a dumb way.

The Catalyst serves his purpose, but he's still wrong. The two are not mutually exclusive

[Argolas]

Seival wrote...

Battle for Rannoch disproves your assumption.

The Reapers were never "the death of the galaxy". They created more lives than they consumed.

Crucible and current cycle are the Catalyst's achievements. Without Cycled Harvests the Crucible wouldn't appear and wouldn't evolve. Without Cycled Harvests current cycle wouldn't exist, Shepard wouldn't exist.

Destroy is one of the paths developed for you. Otherwise, the Catalyst wouldn't allow it, and wouldn't even tell about it.

The Catalyst isn't wrong at all. It serves its purpose, just like Leviathans said.

Battle for Rannoch proves nothing.

The Reapers never created a single life. Life recovered by itself after the Reapers left.

The Catalyst doesn't even know that the Crucible concept had survived. It was actively trying to eradicate it.

Destroy is what we want. It's what none of the indoctrinated ever wanted. Therefore, it's not part of the Reaper doctrine.

The Catalyst serves its purpose in a twisted logic that is the result of messed up Leviathans who didn't understand anything screwing up.

[P. Domi]

'The Battle for Rannoch disproves your assumption' is a line the Reaper destroyer uses even when you broker a peace between the warring factions. If I were Shepard, I'd answer "Your influence on the Geth heretics and their hostilities on Eden Prime (that involved degrading humans to 'husks') disprove yours".

There are so many great points being made in this discussion, and many really reveal how this philosophical debate has expanded overSci-Fi literature and TV: Phillip K. Dick's works, Battlestar Galatcica...

Modifié par pablodomi, 08 mai 2013 - 10:48 .

[Seival]

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

Battle for Rannoch disproves your assumption.

The Reapers were never "the death of the galaxy". They created more lives than they consumed.

Crucible and current cycle are the Catalyst's achievements. Without Cycled Harvests the Crucible wouldn't appear and wouldn't evolve. Without Cycled Harvests current cycle wouldn't exist, Shepard wouldn't exist.

Destroy is one of the paths developed for you. Otherwise, the Catalyst wouldn't allow it, and wouldn't even tell about it.

The Catalyst isn't wrong at all. It serves its purpose, just like Leviathans said.

Battle for Rannoch proves nothing.

The Reapers never created a single life. Life recovered by itself after the Reapers left.

The Catalyst doesn't even know that the Crucible concept had survived. It was actively trying to eradicate it.

Destroy is what we want. It's what none of the indoctrinated ever wanted. Therefore, it's not part of the Reaper doctrine.

The Catalyst serves its purpose in a twisted logic that is the result of messed up Leviathans who didn't understand anything screwing up.

Battle for Rannoch proves that conflict between organics and synthetics is inevitable. This time organics attacked first (as originally, after the Geth became intelligent). Battle for Rannoch is very nice example of why the Catalyst is right.

Transforming the old lives and letting new lives to flourish, forcing all lives to follow the certain pattern is a way of creating lives. Just like parents create and indoctrinate their child.

Attempts of eradicating the Crucible were nothing but another test for lesser beings, obviously. Moreover, Crucible couldn't be developed by lesser races. It was Leviathans' invention most likely.

It doesn't matter to the Catalyst what we want, and what we don't want. It will never show or allow a solution that will destroy all its important accomplishments. That means Destroy was planned for you as possible solution, and will force you to move in pre-set direction.

No, you just don't understand the Catalyst's logic and story behind the Leviathans.

[Steelcan]

And Rannoch proves very clearly that organics are not doomed to synthetics. It showcases this very clearly.

Destroy opens up entirely new, unknown possibilities.

The Leviathans did not invent the Crucible or the Catalyst would have told you.

[AlanC9]

Argolas wrote...
Catalyst, Reapers and everything they stand for us wiped out of the galaxy. What remeins, their technology, is damaged. By fixing it, organics master said technology and make it their own. Destroy is the ultimate way to prove that the Catalyst doesn't solve the problem, it is the problem. 

Who are you trying to prove that to?

[xlegionx]

Yes, Seival, I don't understand the Catalyst's logic, because it doesn't make sense. If you made note of my post earlier on this page maybe you'd see why that's the case

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

And Rannoch proves very clearly that organics are not doomed to synthetics. It showcases this very clearly.

Destroy opens up entirely new, unknown possibilities.

The Leviathans did not invent the Crucible or the Catalyst would have told you.

Rannoch proves very clearly that any peace between too different entities can be only temporary.

Destroy left the galaxy in a mess that only Leviathans can fix. That was the Catalyst's concept of Destroy - to pass turn to its creators.

If you invent something, you know what it does and how it works. When you pass the knowledge of the invention to the others and keep the knowledge detailed enough to be upgraded by people who never seen such thing before, you explain them what that thing does, and how it works. This explains why lesser races couldn't invent the Crucible. And the Catalyst doesn't have to tell you all the truth about the Crucible, just like Leviathans. That truth could be reserved for the future stories.

[xlegionx]

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

And Rannoch proves very clearly that organics are not doomed to synthetics. It showcases this very clearly.

Destroy opens up entirely new, unknown possibilities.

The Leviathans did not invent the Crucible or the Catalyst would have told you.

Rannoch proves very clearly that any peace between too different entities can be only temporary.

Destroy left the galaxy in a mess that only Leviathans can fix. That was the Catalyst's concept of Destroy - to pass turn to its creators.

If you invent something, you know what it does and how it works. When you pass the knowledge of the invention to the others and keep the knowledge detailed enough to be upgraded by people who never seen such thing before, you explain them what that thing does, and how it works. This explains why lesser races couldn't invent the Crucible. And the Catalyst doesn't have to tell you all the truth about the Crucible, just like Leviathans. That truth could be reserved for the future stories.

Rannoch doesn't prove that the peace between the Geth and Quarians is temporary. it can also show that synthetics aren't a threat to organics and can be destroyed

The Catalyst nor the Leviathans created the Crucible. Just because someone doesn't know how what they're making works, doesn't mean they can't invent the idea. When the first atomic bombs were being created and tested, the scientists weren't sure if the bombs wouldn't create a black hole. Creation of new technology is always full of uncertainty, and that's what invention is all about: discovering the unknown.

The organics that came up with the idea of the Crucible likely had a better grasp of how it worked, but they likely haven't been around for millions of years. It seems through some of the logs on Liara's computer that the people working on the Crucible had some inklings of how parts of the device worked.

As for the Catalyst's concept of Destroy? he thinks it's a bad idea because the supposed synthetic-organic conflict will continue, even if the Geth and Reapers would be gone, and the experiences of wars with both of them would likely lead to a greater fear of even experimenting with AI tech. And post-Destroy is not as bleak as you would insist, but we already went over this in that other thread, so I see no need to reignite the arguement

[KingZayd]

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

And Rannoch proves very clearly that organics are not doomed to synthetics. It showcases this very clearly.

Destroy opens up entirely new, unknown possibilities.

The Leviathans did not invent the Crucible or the Catalyst would have told you.

Rannoch proves very clearly that any peace between too different entities can be only temporary.

So Destroy is the only solution then?
AI Shepard is a very different entity to organic life. Therefore the peace between AIShepard and Organics can only be temporary. Therefore Control dooms the galaxy.

Reapers are very different entities to Organics. Therefore the peace between Reapers and Organics can only be temporary. Therefore Synthesis dooms the galaxy.

[Argolas]

KingZayd wrote...

So Destroy is the only solution then?
AI Shepard is a very different entity to organic life. Therefore the peace between AIShepard and Organics can only be temporary. Therefore Control dooms the galaxy.

Peace in Control is delusional anyway. Think about what the Reapers have done. You'll have a hard time finding anyone in the galaxy who hasn't lost anyone or at least anything precious to the Reapers. There are plenty of Javiks out there, people who have nothing to live for anymore except endless hate towards those who destroyed or corrupted anything good and beautiful in the galaxy. They won't forgive simply because the Reapers supposedly have a new leader and are now our peaceful protectors. There's also the horror of indoctrination, the fear that you may lose your mind without even knowing when the Reapers are tolerated, that's additional motivation. Those people won't simply return to their destroyed homes and live the rest of their ruined lives. There will be strikes against the Reapers, resistance movements, maybe even whole governments will support them because they are not willing to let an A.I. overlord police the galaxy with the Reapers.

[AlexMBrennan]

Peace in Control is delusional anyway

Well, the epilogue proves that it's all sunshine and rainbows (same for synthesis) - granted, that makes no sense but hey, can't argue with Bioware's artistic utopia ex culo.

[KingZayd]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Peace in Control is delusional anyway

Well, the epilogue proves that it's all sunshine and rainbows (same for synthesis) - granted, that makes no sense but hey, can't argue with Bioware's artistic utopia ex culo.

Not really. The epilogue doesn't cover all time. War could easily break out after what we see in the epilogue.

[OdanUrr]

KingZayd wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Peace in Control is delusional anyway

Well, the epilogue proves that it's all sunshine and rainbows (same for synthesis) - granted, that makes no sense but hey, can't argue with Bioware's artistic utopia ex culo.

Not really. The epilogue doesn't cover all time. War could easily break out after what we see in the epilogue.

"Always in motion, the future is."

[Argolas]

KingZayd wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Peace in Control is delusional anyway

Well, the epilogue proves that it's all sunshine and rainbows (same for synthesis) - granted, that makes no sense but hey, can't argue with Bioware's artistic utopia ex culo.

Not really. The epilogue doesn't cover all time. War could easily break out after what we see in the epilogue.

It doesn't even need open war. As I said, there are plenty of desperate people out there, nothing to lose and endless anger against the Reapers. Remember, their forces are finite, as long as the harvest doesn't start again, every destroyed Reaper is permanently one Reaper less. There is also no way to defend themselves against such strikes for the Reapers. A well-funded organization such as Cerberus (not Cerberus itself, but an organization backed by rich and powerful people who want to see the Reapers gone) can easily construct small hit-and-run fleets. The Reapers would slowly bleed out or restart the harvest, none of both very appealing.

I would accept Control as the best ending íf there was the option that the Shepalyst simply destroys the Reapers manually, so basically Destroy without casualties. But the epilogue clearly shows that the Reapers are going to stick around dangerously close to us, and that's unacceptable.

Modifié par Argolas, 09 mai 2013 - 01:59 .

[KingZayd]

Argolas wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Peace in Control is delusional anyway

Well, the epilogue proves that it's all sunshine and rainbows (same for synthesis) - granted, that makes no sense but hey, can't argue with Bioware's artistic utopia ex culo.

Not really. The epilogue doesn't cover all time. War could easily break out after what we see in the epilogue.

It doesn't even need open war. As I said, there are plenty of desperate people out there, nothing to lose and endless anger against the Reapers. Remember, their forces are finite, as long as the harvest doesn't start again, every destroyed Reaper is permanently one Reaper less. There is also no way to defend themselves against such strikes for the Reapers. A well-funded organization such as Cerberus (not Cerberus itself, but an organization backed by rich and powerful people who want to see the Reapers gone) can easily construct small hit-and-run fleets. The Reapers would slowly bleed out or restart the harvest, none of both very appealing.

I would accept Control as the best ending íf there was the option that the Shepalyst simply destroys the Reapers manually, so basically Destroy without casualties. But the epilogue clearly shows that the Reapers are going to stick around dangerously close to us, and that's unacceptable.

But if that was an option, destroy would be a little redundant. A mere "do you want some collateral damage with that?" option.