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[The Twilight God]

The ending works fine in concept, but the presentation was horrible. I believe most peoples issue is the lack of character resolution; particularly with destroy which last sees the hero in a pile of rubble separated from his friends and the fact that the ending as presented is cartoonish. Door number 1, door number 2 or door number 3!!! A little too surreal in a bad cheesy way.

But in concept it is fine. People refuse to comprehend the ending (the decision chamber) for what it is: The failed attempt at or successful indoctrination of the protagonist.

Control: Shepard as an individual becoming a reaper just like every other organic mind ever uploaded into their collective (i.e. agreeing with the Reapers)
Synthesis: Whole societies collectively becoming (temporarily?) diffused reapers. (i.e. agreeing with the Reapers)
Destroy: Wipe out the Reapers. (i.e. not agreeing with the Reapers)

To acknowledge the Reaper's two bonus options (Control and Synthesis) Shepard has to believe and agree with what the Kid is saying to then conclude that its options are necessary. Essentially, Shepard has to agree that their actions are justified because he is reacting to the purported "chaos".

Regardless, the Reapers are still unexplained at the end of ME3.

The Leviathan's explain their origin, but their motives remain a mystery. Even to the Leviathans. They are not performing the tasks the Intelligence was created to perform. And no amount of hollow claims of a "solution" by the Kid can erase the objective fact that nothing the Reapers do is preserving life on any level. Whatever their true motivation was it died with them.

The entire spiel of the Kid is contradicted by both the Reapers themselves and other sources.
 
Take Control. The fact that life does exist shows that no synthetics wiped out all life. So it never occurred. It would be a baseless assumption on the part of the Reapers to suggest that synthetics would systematically scour the galaxy, rock by rock, exterminating all traces of organic compounds. It's laughable and not based in reality. Not to mention the fact that there are a myriad of ways they could go about preventing organic-synthetic wars. But they either won't or can't. If you think the Reaper's "solution" is warranted then you must believe Control will ultimately fail if they "can't" or they are lying if they "won't". Good luck with Control.

Then there is Synthesis. There is an example given by Javik of organics and synthetics not coming into conflict (Zha'til), but in fact living together - SYNTHESIZED - in peace. AND THE REAPERS SCREWED THEM OVER ANYWAY. Like the Heretics, the all out genocidal aggression is in every instance initiated by the Reapers themselves. The Geth let the Quarians live and did not pursue their extermination. Along comes the Reapers to instigate just that. The very thing they duped players into thinking they want to prevent (while doing exactly the opposite).  Funny how the Reapers destroyed even the synthesized society without a second thought. Good luck with Synthesis.

The notion that the Crucible is somehow "new data" that "changes things" is completely contradictory to the situation. The fact that Reapers PREBUILT the devices for Synthesis and Control meant the Reapers had a working knowledge of the Crucible and pre-prepared accordingly. It had to know exactly what the Crucible was and was capable of doing to make devices to utilize it. And despite this they fought to keep it from docking and claim to have tried to destroy the concept???

The Citadel is a mass relay; the master mass relay at that. The mass relays were created on the orders of the Intelligence according to the Leviathans. The Reapers, who came after the Intelligence, have stated they built the Citadel. And they admitted this at a time in which they thought themselves unassailable. Ergo, no reason to lie about it. 

I could go on and on about the holes in the Kid's story. There is insurmountable evidence that the Kid is lying. The Kid spins a web of truths, half-truths, lies and lies of omission to spin a tale that many swallowed whole. The idea that the Kid is telling the whole truth "just because" is absurd. There is no reason given to trust it. In fact, Shepard has every reason NOT to trust it.

[PsyrenY]

daaaav wrote...

Who designed the crucible? (you would not know them and there isn't time to explain).

It's also irrelevant. You didn't know exactly who designed the Normandy either, but you use it just fine.

daaaav wrote...

Why are organics and synthetics doomed to eternal conflict?

This one is obvious. Many BSN posters have worked it out already. I can discuss it if you're truly curious.

daaaav wrote...

How does the crucible change the catalyst?

By successfully installing it. Anything more detailed than that is irrelevant.

daaaav wrote...

Is there infact a discrete partition on what is organic and synthetic life and how does the crucible dinstinguish which from which? (implications of project overlord etc)

Evidently there is, because EDI is able to tell that Shepard's brain functions are organic.
I'm glad you mentioned Overlord - Legion uses this as an example to prove that Shepard's mind is organic as well.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 06 mai 2013 - 08:57 .

[daaaav]

David7204 wrote...

Mangalores wrote...

David7204 wrote...

No. He doesn't. A Reaper AI existing on the Citadel is very well within the established methods of the Reapers built up through the series. It's made very clear the Citadel has secrets hidden, and it's made clear the Reapers like to use, 'booby traps,' so to speak.

That doesn't discredit something as DEM. I don't know where you got that idea. Shepard literally does not believe the Catalyst is the Catalyst right there when talking to it. She thinks like everybody else that it's the Citadel and it's just a machine part you need for the Crucible to work.

What makes it a DEM is how it completely sucks any tension out of the end game and then offers to resolve everything for you. The protagonist ceases to be the one solving the problem. Something he didn't and couldn't anticipate does all the problemsolving for him, including problems we never heard of before.

And the Crucible firing and being nothing but a Reaper-buster with no catches or consequences wouldn't have been exactly that? Let's pretend for a moment the Crucible had been introduced better. Back in ME 2, if that floats your boat. Would it be a DEM in that case?

The catalyst is a deus ex machina but the crucible is it's tool. 

The crucible was designed by unknown entities.

It "changes" the catalyst even though no organic has ever known of the catalysts existence.

It seeminlgy has been conveniently designed to perform three very different tasks, again for unknown reasons.

It doesn't make sense.

[PsyrenY]

daaaav wrote...

It "changes" the catalyst even though no organic has ever known of the catalysts existence.

Incorrect - the Leviathans know the Catalyst exists, and they are organic.

Their shifty attitude when asked about the Crucible suggests they know something of its origins, and may even be its source. (They plainly dodge that part of the question.) 

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 06 mai 2013 - 09:17 .

[Morlath]

The Twilight God wrote...
Regardless, the Reapers are still unexplained at the end of ME3.

The Leviathan's explain their origin, but their motives remain a mystery. Even to the Leviathans. They are not performing the tasks the Intelligence was created to perform. And no amount of hollow claims of a "solution" by the Kid can erase the objective fact that nothing the Reapers do is preserving life on any level. Whatever their true motivation was it died with them.

I completely disagree.

The Reapers, the way they act and everything they can can only fit into the very explanation of being tools for the Intelligence. They are "saving" (as in like saving a file) organic life within their own creation so that each organic species is not lost to the "eventual death from synthetics".

It's an explanation and solution that makes no sense from an organic view but it works if you believe in what the Catalyst is supposed to be.

[Mangalores]

David7204 wrote...

...

And the Crucible firing and being nothing but a Reaper-buster with no catches or consequences wouldn't have been exactly that? Let's pretend for a moment the Crucible had been introduced better. Back in ME 2, if that floats your boat. Would it be a DEM in that case?

The Crucible had been established from the start as the device around which the plot evolves. The Catalyst was first introduced as a part to complete this device aka progress the plot. That the Catalyst then transforms from a missing cog into a godlike entity to solve your problems,  tell you about problems you didn't know you have and giving you options without you having any control over them or much foreknowledge about these solutions is what makes it DEM.

A DEM is a variant of a plot device and the Crucible is a plot device. But the difference is when the Crucible was introduced with what function vs. as what the Catalyst was introduced. The Crucible drove plot (very conveniently but it set up the entire premise of ME3 within the first act), the Catalyst as revealed in its AI form only resolved everything (and was revealed only in the last minutes of the last act without you even knowing you were looking for it). What makes it worse it is introducing a new plot at the end of the plot. Otherwise it being a DEM wouldn't have been as bad as the label might suggest.

The cavalry suddenly appearing and saving the hero in the finale is a DEM.
The cavalry appearing and saving the hero in the finale after it had been mentioned to be around is just a very convenient plot device since it was vaguely established.
The cavalry appearing and saving the hero in the finale after the hero sent someone to fetch them is part of the plot.

There isn't really a big leap between DEM and plot device. The
difference is really that one thing drives plot, the other solves it
without being established in plot. And obviously there is good overlap so we can argue in the details when what is a plot device and when something is a DEM. I consider the Starchild a rather blatant DEM but managing to reason it down to a very convenient plot device doesn't actually make it suddenly much better than a DEM.

It's the dynamic of the whole that makes it a problem.

[David7204]

No. There was never at any point an expectation from the player that the Crucible wouldn't solve the Reaper threat somehow. Therefore, you can't say the Catalyst solves an unsolvable problem, because the player doesn't see it as an unsolvable problem.

Modifié par David7204, 06 mai 2013 - 10:03 .

[Mangalores]

David7204 wrote...

No. There was never at any point an expectation from the player that the Crucible wouldn't solve the Reaper threat somehow. Therefore, you can't say the Catalyst solves an unsolvable problem, because the player doesn't see it as an unsolvable problem.

The Crucible doesn't work, remember? The plot makes it an unsolvable problem. Cue in the angels' trumpets and light from heaven. It's really not that difficult.

[daaaav]

Optimystic_X wrote...

daaaav wrote...

Who designed the crucible? (you would not know them and there isn't time to explain).

It's also irrelevant. You didn't know exactly who designed the Normandy either, but you use it just fine.

daaaav wrote...

Why are organics and synthetics doomed to eternal conflict?

This one is obvious. Many BSN posters have worked it out already. I can discuss it if you're truly curious.

daaaav wrote...

How does the crucible change the catalyst?

By successfully installing it. Anything more detailed than that is irrelevant.

daaaav wrote...

Is there infact a discrete partition on what is organic and synthetic life and how does the crucible dinstinguish which from which? (implications of project overlord etc)

Evidently there is, because EDI is able to tell that Shepard's brain functions are organic.
I'm glad you mentioned Overlord - Legion uses this as an example to prove that Shepard's mind is organic as well.

- It it not inconcievable that the Normandy has been designed as it is a space craft, and the ME universe has numerous examples of other space craft - each which have also been designed. The crucible is unprecedented and the best that the catalyst can come up with when quizzed is that we wouldn't know them anyway.

- The source of the conflict isn't obvious to me and is not explored in any detail in the narrative (aside from a single comment from Javik and a malfunctioning AI in a slot machine) but I am open to argument.

- If we can develop a technology that can change the catalyst then other outcomes are possible (subvert, destroy, etc etc). Since we don't know what the damn crucible does, this just adds to the confusion.

- Can you concieve of an entity that has a synthetic brain which functions as an organic one? Is this lifeform synthetic or organic? Or how about a life form that is pure energy?  I can't, but that is not to say that something like that cannot exist. The fact that the crucible can distinguish between organics, AI's and more mundane synthetic constructs (pace makers, implants, VI's etc etc) but only under certain conditions is nonsensical.

[Morlath]

Mangalores wrote...

The Crucible doesn't work, remember? The plot makes it an unsolvable problem. Cue in the angels' trumpets and light from heaven. It's really not that difficult.

In the beginning of ME3 we're told that the Crucible needs an important piece in order to defeat the Reapers. That's at the very start. So how can the piece in question suddenly be a DEM?

[David7204]

Apparently it is that difficult. The fact that the Crucible doesn't immediately fire as soon as it docks does not constitute a DEM. If you paused the game as soon as Shepard collapsed after Hackett says "The Crucible isn't firing," and asked players if the Crucible is going to turn out to be worthless, very few players would say "Yes." A few seconds of delay does not convince players that all of the build up throughout ME 3 was for nothing.

Modifié par David7204, 06 mai 2013 - 10:15 .

[AlexMBrennan]

The fact that the Crucible doesn't immediately fire as soon as it docks does not constitute a DEM. If you paused the game as soon as Shepard collapsed after Hackett says "The Crucible isn't firing," and asked players if the Crucible is going to turn out to be worthless, very few players would say "Yes."

Shepard is bleeding to death and collapses before being able to activate the damn thing - at that point, the realistic expectation would be that we have lost... but instead godchild's magical elevator cures Shepard's mild case of death and gets the crucible ready for firing.

In the beginning of ME3 we're told that the Crucible needs an important piece in order to defeat the Reapers. That's at the very start. So how can the piece in question suddenly be a DEM?

Because it is found right before the otherwise unwinnable boss fight through no effort of our own - the hero finding a magical sword of dragon slaying in a crate right outside the dragon' lair is not a good story.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 06 mai 2013 - 10:42 .

[Steelcan]

Honestly I just ignore the little ****. I've decided he's incapable of understanding organics so I will kindly show him the door.

[David7204]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The fact that the Crucible doesn't immediately fire as soon as it docks does not constitute a DEM. If you paused the game as soon as Shepard collapsed after Hackett says "The Crucible isn't firing," and asked players if the Crucible is going to turn out to be worthless, very few players would say "Yes."

Shepard is bleeding to death and collapses before being able to activate the damn thing - at that point, the realistic expectation would be that we have lost... but instead godchild's magical elevator cures Shepard's mild case of death and gets the crucible ready for firing.

Completely irrelevant. We as the players have access to knowledge that characters don't. For example, we knew that the Reapers would somehow be dealt with in ME 3, despite having no idea how at the beginning of the game. The 'realistic' expectation in universe is that the galaxy will be wiped out. But not only does that not happen, it would be awful writing if it did.

Likewise, I very seriously doubt very many players geniunely thought they had lost. They fully expected something to happen.

Modifié par David7204, 06 mai 2013 - 10:45 .

[Morlath]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The fact that the Crucible doesn't immediately fire as soon as it docks does not constitute a DEM. If you paused the game as soon as Shepard collapsed after Hackett says "The Crucible isn't firing," and asked players if the Crucible is going to turn out to be worthless, very few players would say "Yes."

Shepard is bleeding to death and collapses before being able to activate the damn thing - at that point, the realistic expectation would be that we have lost... but instead godchild's magical elevator cures Shepard's mild case of death and gets the crucible ready for firing.

Which can be argued is a literary plot device aimed at increasing tension of the game and to highlight to the player that Shepard is more unlikely to survive what comes next than they normally would.

[KaiserShep]

Steelcan wrote...

Honestly I just ignore the little ****. I've decided he's incapable of understanding organics so I will kindly show him the door.

Pretty much this. I have no reason to take its predictions as gospel, so if I'm given the delete button, I'd click it multiple times to make sure it's dead.

[AlexMBrennan]

Not sure if you are trolling or just that dense - by your definition, deus-ex-machinas could not logically exist because the audience would expect literal gods to resolve all the plot issues in classical plays. I'd refer you to the WP definition:

A deus ex machina (pron.: /ˈdeɪ.əs ɛks ˈmɑːkiːnə/ or /ˈdiːəs ɛks ˈmækɨnə/;[1] Latin: "god from the machine" pronounced [ˈdeus eks ˈmaː.kʰi.na]; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved, with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object

Where does the defition talk about knowledge the audience has which the characters lack?

[Ridwan]

Wow.... defending the reapers motive... wow...

Not you thread starter, your points were cool.

[Ridwan]

Morlath wrote...

Mangalores wrote...

The Crucible doesn't work, remember? The plot makes it an unsolvable problem. Cue in the angels' trumpets and light from heaven. It's really not that difficult.

In the beginning of ME3 we're told that the Crucible needs an important piece in order to defeat the Reapers. That's at the very start. So how can the piece in question suddenly be a DEM?

Because everyone and their grandmother expected it to be some kind of thing/artifact. Hell I personally thought that the Citadel was the catalyst. Then spaceboy emperor supreme, whose hobby is mass genocide on a galactic scale, pops out with his magical elevator and presents you with three choices (one worse than the other) that will make the reapers go away.

So let's see... introduced to us at the end? Check. Super duper powerful? Check. Doesn't fit in the lore? Check. Sounds like a Dues Ex Machina to me.

Modifié par M25105, 06 mai 2013 - 10:56 .

[David7204]

My last post wasn't meant to define DEMs. Merely point out that claiming a plot element necessarily must be a DEM because it resolves a problem that 'realistically' looks like it's going to end badly is nonsense.

The point is that meta-knowledge is a huge factor in this sort of thing. We can't just look at what happens to characters in-universe.

[David7204]

The Reaper problem was never 'seemingly unsolvable,' and that's the end of it. At least during the endings. There's never a moment where a reasonable player would seriously think the Crucible is completely worthless. The Crucible was heavily foreshadowed as having an unknown component and unknown function that solves the Reaper problem somehow. The existence of an AI on the Citadel has been heavily foreshadowed as well within the Reapers methods.

The Catalyst is not a DEM. And the constant annoying nicknames are becoming awfully irritating.

Modifié par David7204, 06 mai 2013 - 11:01 .

[Morlath]

M25105 wrote...

Because everyone and their grandmother expecing to be some kind of thing/artifact. Hell I personally thought that the Citadel was the catalyst. Then spaceboy emperor supreme, whose hobby is mass genocide on a galactic scale, pops out with his magical elevator and presents you with three choices (one worse than the other) that will make the reapers go away.

So let's see... introduced to us at the end, check, super duper powerful, check, doesn't fit in the lore, check. Sounds like a Dues Ex Machina to me.

Introduced at the end - False. It was introduced at the beginning and was given a small red herring before the big reveal.

Super powerful - The power of an object does not automatically make it a DEM

Doesn't fit into the lore - A race of synthetic-organic aliens that appear every 50,000 years had to start from somewhere and had to be built by someone. The Catalyst provides a logical reasoning (failed logic but it's logical from its perspective) for the Reapers.

It was a badly executed reveal and needed more build up time to not get the crap that's been thrown at it but it isn't a DEM and it fits with what we learn about the Reapers (and what can be assumed).

[Ridwan]

"Thing needed something to trigger, a catalyst" "Ok... so like some kinda fuel or a final piece of gadget?" "No it needs a glowing genocidal ghost boy" "... what?" "Just kidding.. but seriously it needs something and we don't know what it is".

Like I said, no one expected that the catalyst was going to be the ****** kid, cause.. well we kinda expected better from Bioware than throw in some Contact reference boy (that film sucked by the way).

If you can solve a problem that appears unsolveable, I'd say you're pretty super duper powerful.

And about the lore, so where did the spacekid come from then and why did he chill in the citadel? The reapers coming from outside our known galaxy to feed on us every 50,000 years before entering hibernation (like a bear) makes more sense than some magical kid cooking them up with his wand.

[David7204]

Uh-huh.

So why does it bother you so much that it takes the form of a kid?