463 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

Sejborg wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

Just as a suggestion? When responding directly to someone's post, basing your response on their direct words, but you actually mean a general group like a company, its much more civil to not use the "you" pronoun. It makes the entire argument sound like you are focusing all your comments and viewpoints at the person you are directly engaging.

Just my two cents.

Should I have called him Bioware instead og you? Perhaps been more vague or have written more softly? This is not the first time I have expressed these concerns - however it is the first time I am not being ignored. So there is also that. 

You could have easily said Bioware in many cases, yes. "Bioware has lost my trust. Bioware has made me feel cheated." Etc.

And I'd say it is one of the instances of the squeaky wheel gets the grease, but it also sours people's opinion of you. I'm not sure how likely Allan is to respond to your posts going forward or, possibly, even give the. Anything more than a cursory glance (although I don't want to speak for Allan). Which means that you trade the benefit of the doubt of people taking you seriously in the future to have one instance of devs responding to you. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 09 mai 2013 - 12:57 .

[Volus Warlord]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

And I'd say it is one of the instances of the squeaky wheel gets the grease, but it also sours people's opinion of you. I'm not sure how likely Allan is to respond to your posts going forward or, possibly, even give the. Anything more than a cursory glance (although I don't want to speak for Allan). Which means that you trade the benefit of the doubt of people taking you seriously in the future to have one instance of devs responding to you. 

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.. or it gets the can.

Bioware rarely bans the people who ****** and moan nonstop, unless they get too complacent and/or confrontational about it.

O.T.
Did Allan take a break? He'd been hinting at it for some time, and my lack of recent extended duration bans suggests he isn't as active.

EDIT: Saw last page, nvm.

Although this thread seems to have evolved/devovled to "I don't trust Bioware."

Honestly I wouldn't bother arguing with them. The ultimate arbitrator of whether or not "fans" trust them is the quality of the game. Some will praise them regardless, some will bash them regardless, but most are in between. At least I think so. If the release game is solid, people will eventually forget about all the PR/marketing shenanigans in the past few years, and the forum may get a bit less toxic .  Ah hell who am I kidding.

In all seriousness-Bioware, if the DA3 is solid, you will get redemption, and if it is not, you will not. It doesn't have to be perfect, it has to be solid. Solid story, solid mechanics, relatively bug free, no blatant $$ shaftage, minimal marketing ass hattery. If so, all of the detractors will have is minor whines and gripes, as opposed to fundamental flaws to shoot holes in your credibility with. 

Modifié par Volus Warlord, 09 mai 2013 - 01:17 .

[Sejborg]

Ninja Stan
You are completely missing the point. It's about perception. You call it a reward for trusting and preordering. I call it punishment for not trusting and not preordering. It's the same thing from two point of views.
When preordering it IS about trust. So how will you reward everyone but me this time around? What companions and missions should I miss out on? And how can that be the best possible game when stuff is already missing Day1? Is this the way to make me a trusty and happy customer again?

And don't give me that with it not being a huge chunk. Just look at Javik.

[Khayness]

Sejborg wrote...

And don't give me that with it not being a huge chunk. Just look at Javik.

Javik was a bonus for us poor day1 ME3 CE owners.

The Black Emporium for DA2 would be a better example, since it has the change appearance option which is a huge deal if your perceived character didn't look good in actual cutscenes afterwards.

[LinksOcarina]

Sejborg wrote...

Ninja Stan
You are completely missing the point. It's about perception. You call it a reward for trusting and preordering. I call it punishment for not trusting and not preordering. It's the same thing from two point of views.

When preordering it IS about trust. So how will you reward everyone but me this time around? What companions and missions should I miss out on? And how can that be the best possible game when stuff is already missing Day1? Is this the way to make me a trusty and happy customer again?

And don't give me that with it not being a huge chunk. Just look at Javik.

The danger of perception is that it masks legitemacy. If we percieve something as being dishonest, it will always be dishonest, despite it not being true. And that is a dangerous thing because it colors our perception of reality, both in the past and for the future. 

Considering most gaming models have planned DLC now as part of their strategy for showing support for a product, I don't understand why you are complaining about it. It is the same damn thing as any tabletop game, the difference is stuff like Pathfinder has poor graphics. 

[Sejborg]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

Just as a suggestion? When responding directly to someone's post, basing your response on their direct words, but you actually mean a general group like a company, its much more civil to not use the "you" pronoun. It makes the entire argument sound like you are focusing all your comments and viewpoints at the person you are directly engaging.

Just my two cents.

Should I have called him Bioware instead og you? Perhaps been more vague or have written more softly? This is not the first time I have expressed these concerns - however it is the first time I am not being ignored. So there is also that. 

You could have easily said Bioware in many cases, yes. "Bioware has lost my trust. Bioware has made me feel cheated." Etc.

And I'd say it is one of the instances of the squeaky wheel gets the grease, but it also sours people's opinion of you. I'm not sure how likely Allan is to respond to your posts going forward or, possibly, even give the. Anything more than a cursory glance (although I don't want to speak for Allan). Which means that you trade the benefit of the doubt of people taking you seriously in the future to have one instance of devs responding to you. 

I already have pointed out that I was talking in general about Bioware and not a specific dev. I'm used to having different words for you as in plural, and you as in someone specific. So that might be part of the problem. However I have already explained what and who I meant so what more should I do?

[Sejborg]

Khayness wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

And don't give me that with it not being a huge chunk. Just look at Javik.

Javik was a bonus for us poor day1 ME3 CE owners.

The Black Emporium for DA2 would be a better example, since it has the change appearance option which is a huge deal if your perceived character didn't look good in actual cutscenes afterwards.

Yeah. Well there is plenty of examples that's for sure.

[Sejborg]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Ninja Stan
You are completely missing the point. It's about perception. You call it a reward for trusting and preordering. I call it punishment for not trusting and not preordering. It's the same thing from two point of views.

When preordering it IS about trust. So how will you reward everyone but me this time around? What companions and missions should I miss out on? And how can that be the best possible game when stuff is already missing Day1? Is this the way to make me a trusty and happy customer again?

And don't give me that with it not being a huge chunk. Just look at Javik.

The danger of perception is that it masks legitemacy. If we percieve something as being dishonest, it will always be dishonest, despite it not being true. And that is a dangerous thing because it colors our perception of reality, both in the past and for the future. 

Untill we reach perfect understanding then perception IS the closest thing to reality as we can get. And ignoring a certain groups perception do not gain you better understanding.

Modifié par Sejborg, 09 mai 2013 - 01:26 .

[Khayness]

Sejborg wrote...

Yeah. Well there is plenty of examples that's for sure.

They've been doing this since Baldur's Gate 2, so it's nothing new. Although the Bonus Merchant sold many of the best items in the game which made it easy or mandatory depending on the party setup you were playing with.

But it doesn't change the fact that it is an annoying practice.

Hooray for my stance on this being on the last comment on the previous page, I hate it when this happens.

Modifié par Khayness, 09 mai 2013 - 01:28 .

[LinksOcarina]

Sejborg wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Ninja Stan
You are completely missing the point. It's about perception. You call it a reward for trusting and preordering. I call it punishment for not trusting and not preordering. It's the same thing from two point of views.

When preordering it IS about trust. So how will you reward everyone but me this time around? What companions and missions should I miss out on? And how can that be the best possible game when stuff is already missing Day1? Is this the way to make me a trusty and happy customer again?

And don't give me that with it not being a huge chunk. Just look at Javik.

The danger of perception is that it masks legitemacy. If we percieve something as being dishonest, it will always be dishonest, despite it not being true. And that is a dangerous thing because it colors our perception of reality, both in the past and for the future. 

Untill we reach perfect understanding then perception IS the closest thing to reality as we can get. And ignoring a certain groups perception do not gain you better understanding.

You can ignore a groups perception when they are simply wrong though. Thats the difference.

You never will reach that understanding because of the perception anyway. Mark my words. 

[Ninja Stan]

Sejborg wrote...

Ninja Stan
You are completely missing the point. It's about perception. You call it a reward for trusting and preordering. I call it punishment for not trusting and not preordering. It's the same thing from two point of views.

[...]And don't give me that with it not being a huge chunk. Just look at Javik.

You call it a huge chunk. I call it not a huge chunk. It's the same thing from two point of views.

When preordering it IS about trust. So how will you reward everyone but me this time around? What companions and missions should I miss out on? 

Sure, pre-ordering is all about trust in the company. You don't trust BioWare, but you still want all the content from that untrustworthy company. You don't need to miss out on anything, as I said repeatedly in my giant response. Just choose to buy the edition with all the stuff you want on it, or put down your $5 on a pre-order and cancel if it looks like the game won't meet your expectations. Expecting a company to hold their special offers just for you isn't a punishment; you want special treatment from the untrustworthy company.

And how can that be the best possible game when stuff is already missing Day1? Is this the way to make me a trusty and happy customer again? 

Stuff isn't missing. You're getting precisely the content you bought. If you want additional content, or different content in some cases, purchase a different version, the one with all the stuff you want on it. You want Javik? Pre-order, buy a collector's edition, or pick up From Ashes DLC. Bingo, no longer missing!

I mean, you can hope all you like that publishers won't have any DLC, bonus content in collector's editions, or bonus pre-order content. But game companies want to recoup the millions of dollars in time and effort they've invested in the game for 2-3 years, and they'd like to make a profit while they're art it. Since game prices haven't really gone up in the last decade while development costs have skyrocketed, they either need to sell way more copies or do things like microtransactions and DLC and Online Passes to keep people interested in the game for longer, and to get more of gamers' dollars. By and large, those ideas appear to be working, and some DLC and microtransactions are incredibly popular! This way, they don't have to jack up the base retail price, which tends to turn gamers off!

Besides all of that, Javik was designed to be additional, not-in-base-game content in the first place! From Ashes was intended to be bonus content and sold as DLC. And it was very popular with ME3 fans even as DLC.

[David7204]

I don't mind day one DLC one bit as long as it's high quality. Like anything else in the game.

I wasn't particularly impressed with From Ashes, but that's more because I thought it was a mediocre mission and a very unlikeable character.

But it's never been an issue of money, and I would buy it again. And I would claim that anyone who thinks it is an issue of money and has been on these forums for months or even years is either lying, deluded, or stupid. If it was truely about money, you'd invest the same amount of time if you got a traffic ticket and end up wasting your life away. But players need to make it an issue of money because they otherwise have no justification for making demands.

Modifié par David7204, 09 mai 2013 - 01:35 .

[OdanUrr]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Besides all of that, Javik was designed to be additional, not-in-base-game content in the first place! From Ashes was intended to be bonus content and sold as DLC.

Here's where I disagree somewhat. I mean, we do know that at some point during development it was part of the core game, don't we?

[Sejborg]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Ninja Stan
You are completely missing the point. It's about perception. You call it a reward for trusting and preordering. I call it punishment for not trusting and not preordering. It's the same thing from two point of views.

When preordering it IS about trust. So how will you reward everyone but me this time around? What companions and missions should I miss out on? And how can that be the best possible game when stuff is already missing Day1? Is this the way to make me a trusty and happy customer again?

And don't give me that with it not being a huge chunk. Just look at Javik.

The danger of perception is that it masks legitemacy. If we percieve something as being dishonest, it will always be dishonest, despite it not being true. And that is a dangerous thing because it colors our perception of reality, both in the past and for the future. 

Untill we reach perfect understanding then perception IS the closest thing to reality as we can get. And ignoring a certain groups perception do not gain you better understanding.

You can ignore a groups perception when they are simply wrong though. Thats the difference.

You never will reach that understanding because of the perception anyway. Mark my words. 

I am not wrong. And neither is Ninja Stan. I am just able to understand both points of view. It is just how the same thing is perceived from two different places. Don't you know the story about the blindfolded men and the elephant?

[Ninja Stan]

Khayness wrote...

However it isn't our choice to limit all existing content into different versions of the same game.

I get the mindset behind this bussines practice, just as I get the thoughts behind DLCs as a way of maintaining consumer interest over time.

But I don't have to like it. You can't blame people for feeling missed out. Atleast EA didn't go (yet) so far in this regard as Ubisoft with the AC series.

I don't blame people for feeling like they've missed out. I do blame people, however, for feeling like they've missed out and demanding that a company change the way it does business so they no longer feel that way.

I have offered several different ways a gamer could get the content they feel they've missed out on. If they still insist that the company changes rather than changing their own behaviour, then we might be having two different arguments here, and if it's the "other" argument,  I'm not really prepared to weather yet another discussion on "entitlement" and what it means to whom.

[LinksOcarina]

OdanUrr wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

Besides all of that, Javik was designed to be additional, not-in-base-game content in the first place! From Ashes was intended to be bonus content and sold as DLC.

Here's where I disagree somewhat. I mean, we do know that at some point during development it was part of the core game, don't we?

We know that it was an idea floating during pre-production and the script-writing phase. That is about it.

Considering that most of what was seen in that script was changed, removed or altered, its not sufficent in terms of actual evidence that Javik was going to be in the main game fully. They took story elements to include him yes, but considering most of the core bits of the character, namely dialogue interactions and triggers are all on From Ashes as a DLC, its recycled yet planned material that is being played and bought. 

[dreamgazer]

OdanUrr wrote...

Here's where I disagree somewhat. I mean, we do know that at some point during development it was part of the core game, don't we?

Thessia proves that Javik was a bit more "essential" than an optional DLC character should've been, even without considering his overall impact on the story's context. I really hope a situation like that doesn't arise again. 

[David7204]

That's nonsense. Javik doesn't reveal anything significant on Thessia that the other squadmates don't. What do you learn? That the Protheans had a hand in asari development. You learn that with every other squadmate; the only difference in taking Javik is that it's straight from the horse's mouth.

Modifié par David7204, 09 mai 2013 - 01:43 .

[LinksOcarina]

Sejborg wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

Ninja Stan
You are completely missing the point. It's about perception. You call it a reward for trusting and preordering. I call it punishment for not trusting and not preordering. It's the same thing from two point of views.

When preordering it IS about trust. So how will you reward everyone but me this time around? What companions and missions should I miss out on? And how can that be the best possible game when stuff is already missing Day1? Is this the way to make me a trusty and happy customer again?

And don't give me that with it not being a huge chunk. Just look at Javik.

The danger of perception is that it masks legitemacy. If we percieve something as being dishonest, it will always be dishonest, despite it not being true. And that is a dangerous thing because it colors our perception of reality, both in the past and for the future. 

Untill we reach perfect understanding then perception IS the closest thing to reality as we can get. And ignoring a certain groups perception do not gain you better understanding.

You can ignore a groups perception when they are simply wrong though. Thats the difference.

You never will reach that understanding because of the perception anyway. Mark my words. 

I am not wrong. And neither is Ninja Stan. I am just able to understand both points of view. It is just how the same thing is perceived from two different places. Don't you know the story about the blindfolded men and the elephant?

Yes. It shows the dangers of perception rather well. But it is also why you are wrong. Also why Stan is wrong too.

It is also why you need to search for the truth to determine the best, educated guess. What you are asking will not do that, it will just reinforce the perception. That is my problem with this. 

[OdanUrr]

LinksOcarina wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

Besides all of that, Javik was designed to be additional, not-in-base-game content in the first place! From Ashes was intended to be bonus content and sold as DLC.

Here's where I disagree somewhat. I mean, we do know that at some point during development it was part of the core game, don't we?

We know that it was an idea floating during pre-production and the script-writing phase. That is about it.

Considering that most of what was seen in that script was changed, removed or altered, its not sufficent in terms of actual evidence that Javik was going to be in the main game fully. They took story elements to include him yes, but considering most of the core bits of the character, namely dialogue interactions and triggers are all on From Ashes as a DLC, its recycled yet planned material that is being played and bought. 

I'm not arguing here whether BioWare should or shouldn't have sold Javik as DLC. What I'm saying is that there are indications, particularly in the game itself, that Javik was intended to play a more critical role in the story.

[David7204]

That doesn't mean anything. Ideas are scrapped and recycled all the time.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

That's nonsense. Javik doesn't reveal anything significant on Thessia that the other squadmates don't. What do you learn? That the Protheans had a hand in asari development. You learn that with every other squadmate; the only difference in taking Javik is that it's straight from the horse's mouth.

Not the right place for detailed discussion about ME3's content, but I suggest you replay the mission with and without the character and tell me again that it's "nonsense".

[Fast Jimmy]

I am not wrong. And neither is Ninja Stan. I am just able to understand both points of view. It is just how the same thing is perceived from two different places. Don't you know the story about the blindfolded men and the elephant?

Wait... what's this about a blind man and an elephant?

[David7204]

dreamgazer wrote...

Not the right place for detailed discussion about ME3's content, but I suggest you replay the mission with and without the character and tell me again that it's "nonsense".

I've replayed the mission with and without Javik. Your assertion is nonsense.

[OdanUrr]

David7204 wrote...

That doesn't mean anything. Ideas are scrapped and recycled all the time.

It's still important insofar as to the assertion that "Javik was designed to be additional, not-in-base-game content in the first place."