463 réponses à ce sujet

[LinksOcarina]

Khayness wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

2005? Hmm. I remember(at least with me) the whole character being released Day One starting with Shale. I didn't have a problem with it because it was the first time I'd experienced a thing like that.

Jade Empire playable characters.

As I've mentioned earlier, they've been doing it since BG2, starting with the Bonus Merchants.

I wasn't even counting the bonus merchants either. 

So we can push that back to 2000 then. 

AresKeith wrote...

@LinksOcarina what's with the hostile attitude?

I PMed you that one Ares.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 09 mai 2013 - 04:39 .

[MerinTB]

Brockololly wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Javik and Sebastian were far too "essential" for them to be cut out and sold, Javik provided an in-depth look into the Protheans which many players had interest in and Sebastian added a lot to the final segment of Dragon Age 2.

It wasn't like Shale or Zaeed, those two didn't add too much and you could very well play the game without noticing the hole they leave. Meanwhile, Sebastian and Javik's hole is a vacuum. It's disappointing looking at the destruction of the Chantry and not see Sebastian's "NOOOO~" or his reactions towards Anders or not knowing anything about the Protheans without Javik.

Bingo.

Zaeed had an awesome mission and was a great character but he felt like an extra character, not central to the game on your initial playthrough. You could easily pick up Zaeed's DLC after you had finished the game and still feel like you had gotten your money's worth out of him.

Part of the issue I have with Day 1 DLC characters like Sebastian or Javik is that they're Day 1 DLC in games already lacking in companions, for one. And two, they're integrated into the game too well. You can see where they would fit if you're not playing the game with them. Its like a jigsaw puzzle where you buy the whole puzzle except a handful of pieces are put behind an extra paywall. You can sense what you're missing but it just feels exploitative.

The other big issue I have with Day 1 DLC that are tightly integrated characters is that I don't think they work well at all if you're buying them post Day 1. They're content I'd want to play with on my first playthrough, if I'm going to play with them at all. I don't know whether or not I'm going to play a game twice. So I want my first time through to be good. I'd rather have Day 1 DLC like Warden's Keep where I can play it fully after I've completed the game as opposed to a companion who I have to take around with me to get the most out of them via banter and so forth.

And thank you, Brockololly. 

and... Dave of Canada too, i guess... 

[Homebound]

Lets take a step back and take DLC out of the equation. Here. Stare at this adorable cat.

Now type something unrelated to DLC. Its hard NOT to talk about DLC and EA's finances in the same sentence.

[Khayness]

Adorable cat for SS LI or preorder cancelled.

[LPPrince]

Well, this thread IS about rushing.

[LPPrince]

http://www.psu.com/a...r-game-released

Why can't more things be like this

[Homebound]

LPPrince wrote...

http://www.psu.com/a...r-game-released

Why can't more things be like this

bcuz dlc is relatively a new concept in gaming and most dont know how to use it.

[David7204]

Because that means the developers have to sit with their hands under their butts doing nothing for two months while the game is being approved, manufactured, and shipped.

[hoorayforicecream]

LinksOcarina wrote...

spirosz wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...


Yet people complained about Zaeed because of he felt like an extra character and had little to do with the game! The fact that Sebastian and Javik were integrated should be a good thing, instead its not because its DLC? 

Think about it for a second.  "Extra" - what does that sound to you?  It's like ordering a meal with a side dish, you don't need it, but you can still purchase it, if it adds a little flavour to your meal.

Javik was the missing part of the meal, not the side dish. 

Cut the bull**** for a minute. 

Extra is what Javik is too, but its a better extra in terms of, well, everything. Implemtation, development of character, cut-scenes and interaction. 

You say hes part of the meal, I say hes just a bigger extra to borrow your strawman argument. And again, people should be happy about that fact, but aren't for reasons I don't comprehend. 

It's six of one, half-dozen of the other. Bioware wants to make DLC worthwhile and compelling, because it provides players incentive to purchase it and as a point of pride - they want to make the best game experience they can. The more worthwhile and compelling it is, however, the more some players will bridle when they feel that their experience is incomplete, due to perceived "missing" content that they feel entitled to. 

It honestly doesn't matter to this group that the budget for the DLC was separate, or that the developers on it were already transitioned off the main project. It doesn't matter when the developers started the development on it. It can, does, and will still feel like an incomplete game experience to this group, because the developers did a good job of creating DLC content that players want to play. The better the DLC content is, the angrier these players will feel, because they want it and don't want to pay extra for it. There is literally no proposition that will satisfy them.

The only alternative to angering this group of players is for developers to purposely make DLC that isn't as good as it could be.

[Ninja Stan]

LPPrince wrote...

http://www.psu.com/a...r-game-released

Why can't more things be like this

I think many more than can be like that. Whether they should be or not, and whether companies base their schedules on that, is a different matter. Waiting until the games ships to start DLC production isn't a bad thing, but it's not nexessarily a good thing, either. If a company is planning Day 1 DLC, waiting until Day 2 to start it is ridiculous.

It depends on the size of the project, of course, and what resources are available to work on it. BioWare DLC can be pretty substantial because they plan for it beforehand and have a lot of time to work on it, even if it's intended for release on Day 1. The arguments against Javik and From Ashes in this thread are pretty good reasons BioWare wants a lot of time to make such products. They want to make sure the characters feel like they've been part of the game from the beginning, like they can be seamlessly integrated without feeling merely tacked on. That takes time and effort, whereas a new map pack takes less effort (or rather, a lot of effort by different departments).

That's the way BioWare has done it. Is it the best way? Is it the right way? Who can tell? What's important is that BioWare thinks it's the way to go, BioWare thinks it's important to have hih-quality DLC, and they've worked towards that goal. Other companies, being run and staffed by different people, will of course have their own ideas of how to do DLC.

[Mr.House]

LPPrince wrote...

http://www.psu.com/a...r-game-released

Why can't more things be like this

That's how dlc should be done.

[Dave of Canada]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Yet people complained about Zaeed because of he felt like an extra character and had little to do with the game! The fact that Sebastian and Javik were integrated should be a good thing, instead its not because its DLC?

There's a difference, though. While Zaeed/Kasumi and Shale often felt "extra", they still had interactions and responses when necessary and were dragged along as companions like everyone else--they just remained uninvolved from the grand scheme of things. Shale's involvement in the Anvil quest is good but doesn't add extra weight to it, it's just a response which fits the character and her interactions end there.

Do you miss Shale? Yeah, I'd say so. Do you notice when she's not there? Not really.

Meanwhile, Javik and Sebastian are entirely different beasts.

Javik provides context about the history of the universe, introduces different perspectives on the species which we encounter, the war which is going on, etcetera. He's more than just there, he's almost as important as the "lead' companions.

Hell, I'd claim Sebastian--aside from the fact that you can't recruit him in the first act--would be a "lead" companion in Dragon Age 2. He's the only time you get any insight into Elthina's character, you're presented with a lot of important topics such as Starkhaven or the Divine wishing to start an Exalted March on Kirkwall. Hell, his presence alone drastically changes the post-bombing scene and may carry a player's decision.

When DLC companions are far better integrated than main companions into the main plot and themes, there's a problem.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 09 mai 2013 - 05:56 .

[addiction21]

MerinTB wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Javik and Sebastian were far too "essential" for them to be cut out and sold, Javik provided an in-depth look into the Protheans which many players had interest in and Sebastian added a lot to the final segment of Dragon Age 2.

It wasn't like Shale or Zaeed, those two didn't add too much and you could very well play the game without noticing the hole they leave. Meanwhile, Sebastian and Javik's hole is a vacuum. It's disappointing looking at the destruction of the Chantry and not see Sebastian's "NOOOO~" or his reactions towards Anders or not knowing anything about the Protheans without Javik.

Bingo.

Zaeed had an awesome mission and was a great character but he felt like an extra character, not central to the game on your initial playthrough. You could easily pick up Zaeed's DLC after you had finished the game and still feel like you had gotten your money's worth out of him.

Part of the issue I have with Day 1 DLC characters like Sebastian or Javik is that they're Day 1 DLC in games already lacking in companions, for one. And two, they're integrated into the game too well. You can see where they would fit if you're not playing the game with them. Its like a jigsaw puzzle where you buy the whole puzzle except a handful of pieces are put behind an extra paywall. You can sense what you're missing but it just feels exploitative.

The other big issue I have with Day 1 DLC that are tightly integrated characters is that I don't think they work well at all if you're buying them post Day 1. They're content I'd want to play with on my first playthrough, if I'm going to play with them at all. I don't know whether or not I'm going to play a game twice. So I want my first time through to be good. I'd rather have Day 1 DLC like Warden's Keep where I can play it fully after I've completed the game as opposed to a companion who I have to take around with me to get the most out of them via banter and so forth.

And thank you, Brockololly. 

and... Dave of Canada too, i guess... 

So make them bad to make some people happy that they didn't buy it?

I thought we held BioWare to a higher standard? And if its wanted for the first play-thru or only see it once wouldn't you want it to be the best it could be instead of just a mission and a handful of meaningless throw away lines?

[Sanunes]

EntropicAngel wrote...

 What other perspectives does Javik provide, Dave? Outside of simply the Qunari Prothean viewpoint of "Conquer! Power!" I don't recall (and I'm playing right now--just finished Sanctuary actually) him having anything significant to say about the war, for instance.

I am curious about this myself for the way I saw him he explains how the beacons worked and the fairytale of how Prothean civilization existed was completely wrong and they were more Imperialistic.  None of it really adds to the game, Javik might give insight on Protheans before they Collector's, but in terms of Mass Effect 3 I don't think he added anything to the game itself.

[Khayness]

EntropicAngel wrote...

 What other perspectives does Javik provide, Dave? Outside of simply the Qunari Prothean viewpoint of "Conquer! Power!" I don't recall (and I'm playing right now--just finished Sanctuary actually) him having anything significant to say about the war, for instance.

He pretty much deconstructs the Asari and the Prothean races, to the player and other ingame characters likewise.

On the war he draws pararells which can be counted as foreshadowing for the beloved twist ending character.

He is important, but you are just being racist towards Javik 'cuz he is a DLC character!

Modifié par Khayness, 09 mai 2013 - 06:08 .

[Sanunes]

Mr.House wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

http://www.psu.com/a...r-game-released

Why can't more things be like this

That's how dlc should be done.

I disagree.  If there was Day 1 DLC for BioShock Infinite I probably would have bought it, but I am bored of the game and won't buy any now.

Besides the benefit of Day 1 DLC is that they keep the team together instead of reassigning them to other projects.

[Allan Schumacher]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Javik and Sebastian were far too "essential" for them to be cut out and sold, Javik provided an in-depth look into the Protheans which many players had interest in and Sebastian added a lot to the final segment of Dragon Age 2.

Be honest with yourself.  If there was no Prothean in ME3, would you have actually been surprised?  In my opinion Javik's inclusion, in principle, is more lame because it is more logic defying and fan servicey than anything.  You're right that players had interest of him, however, because they had interest in the lore.  The inclusion of a frozen, sole survivor of a long extinct race isn't the basis of the plot.

Prior to any notification that Javik existed, anyone that told me they were expecting a Prothean in ME3 because it was essential to the storyline, would result in me feeling they were either lying.  Everything that Javik contributes while on Thessia, for example, is deduced by another party member.  Javik provides some level of authentic Prothean experience, but if you cannot imagine ME3 being possible in any shape without Javik's presence, I think you're being too narrow minded with your imagination.  All he provides is a perspective of what the Reaper/Prothean war was like.

At some point discerning what is "interesting" with what is "essential" becomes impossible.  Is it deemed essential because it's omission makes it impossible to make sense, or is it essential because you really liked what it added?

It wasn't like Shale or Zaeed, those two didn't add too much and you could very well play the game without noticing the hole they leave. Meanwhile, Sebastian and Javik's hole is a vacuum. It's disappointing looking at the destruction of the Chantry and not see Sebastian's "NOOOO~" or his reactions towards Anders or not knowing anything about the Protheans without Javik.

As someone that has actually never played with Sebastian (since I never worked on the DLC), I disagree; even after just watching the video now.  It's an interesting aspect into his character, but I'd like to think that all content would be consistent and be interesting.  It's a reaction that is integrated into the story, which makes sense for his character.  You can only imagine the vacuum being there because you were provided with extra content that allows you to assume said vacuum would exist.  Do you still feel the same if you play the game for a year before playing a DLC that adds Sebastian and that scene?  I guess it's hard to say one way or another since that wasn't the reality, but I have my doubts.

I could make the same argument that you have regarding Shale, who (perhaps ironically), unequivocally was a character that was cut from the main release.  Whether or not you feel the same about Sebastian and Javik, Shale was definitely intended to be a part of the main release for DAO.


On some level though, as gamers, I have a feeling we will never see eye to eye with this.  Again, it's a situation where I don't feel I can convince you, no matter how much my perspectives may differ, just as I am skeptical that you would ever convince me.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 09 mai 2013 - 06:40 .