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since EA is getiing hit hard financially will they rush DA3 out


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#451
Volus Warlord

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Captain Crash wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

[snip]

So, all your rationale goes out the window. :innocent:

What incentives do they have to not rush the game out again?


Not at all, the rationale is still there. Your just being cynical and your post is twisting it to be purposely pessimistic. 

Anyway the only true source we have right now is in this thread.  Bioware stating it wont be rushed.  I rather take that as accurate.



When optimism is groundless and unjustifiable, your "pessimism" is reality. :D And while that is indeed the only source we have, and will have for some time, there is considerable evidence to doubt its accuracy. Considerable evidence to doubt its accuracy and trivial evidence to prove it. Call it pessimistic or cynical if you will. 

#452
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Plaintiff wrote...

I'm not seeing the problem. Playing Arrival doesn't give you any choice in how events turn out, so why would not playing it result in a different outcome?


The problem is that the events of a DLC about your character are considered canon.

#453
LPPrince

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm not seeing the problem. Playing Arrival doesn't give you any choice in how events turn out, so why would not playing it result in a different outcome?


The problem is that the events of a DLC about your character are considered canon.


:/

I didn't play any DA2 DLC, but I'm not gonna throw a fit if in DA3 I find out that my Hawke let Corypheus get away and let Tallis walk away with the document of qunari agents in Thedas.

Sure. Let it be.

#454
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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Plaintiff wrote...

Putting aside the fact that one individual case is proof of nothing, Shepherd is not merely being "accused". It is a known fact that he destroyed the relay. Shepeherd himself admits it openly. The trial is about deciding if his actions were justified, and how he should be punished.

Secondly, Shepherd is not a Spectre during the events of ME2, he was declared dead and is now working for a criminal organization. If I recall correctly, his Spectre status is not formally re-instated until the events of ME3.

And thirdly, Shepherd is not being tried by the Council, he's facing court-martial on Earth, by a purely-human Alliance military panel. So how a council Spectre would be treated is irrelevent.


I don't know what you're talking about. I didn't destroy any relay. What relay are you talking about? You mean that Alpha Relay that got destroyed? I was fighting the Collectors when that happened--in fact I was on the other side of the Omega relay.

Do you see my point?

2. Yes I was. It was mostly lip-service, but I WAS a Spectre. Saved the Council, scratch my back I'll scratch yours, you know.

3. I wasn't aware Spectres were even able to be tried by individual races. The only situation where it makes sense that he is tried for it is if he admits to it--which only happens if you play the DLC.

#455
LPPrince

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You didn't. Shepard did. The DLC let you play through events your Shepard would've gone through anyway, so you can see and know exactly what you'd hear about in the next game. There.

So, DA3? Rushed?

#456
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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BasilKarlo wrote...

And yet the Extended Cut did away with that concept entirely after BioWare said that that wasn't what we were supposed to take away from the ending at all. They still say that the EC didn't alter the ending, it just added clarity. So either their "integrity" doesn't extend beyond art and they just decided to lie to us, or they have no artistic integrity and were willing to completely change the tone of the ending because of us.


I disagree. ME3 before the EC was a broken galaxy on the verge of renewal. ME3 after the EC was...the same. The only things they actually changed were the relays--just disabled instead of destroyed (which I hate because it's agreeing with the false assumption that destroyed=collision with a planet-sized asteroid)--and your squaddies picked up during the beam run--something else I hate because it agrees with the false assumption that your squadmates would have run up the beam even if they didn't think you were alive.

The EC fundamentally changed nothing about the ending except the tone, you're right about that.

Something I dislike, also. I wonder if there's a way to disable the EC so I can experience the intended ending, without actually uninstalling it (because they said it would cost money after a certain date).


...they do need to win back a lot of people. DA devs have said so themselves. They decided to drastically change the Dragon Age formula after one surprisingly successful installment and that resulted in a loss in sales of 50%.


I disagree, but I've already been over why.

Modifié par EntropicAngel, 09 mai 2013 - 06:12 .


#457
Sanunes

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Something I dislike, also. I wonder if there's a way to disable the EC so I can experience the intended ending, without actually uninstalling it (because they said it would cost money after a certain date).


I think you can uninstall it if you wish for you only had to claim it before a certain date to get it for free.  Otherwise people that have unexpected hardware failures will run into problems on the PC since you don't get a seperate installer and its integrated into the game.

#458
hoorayforicecream

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

This is also part of the problem. Despite how many times developers seem to be bought out by EA, have their IPs get thrashed by fans just a few years later and then get dumped by EA, you'd think developers would say "Hey, this might not be the best course of action for us."


This indicates that you don't understand the fundamental problem. Development studios generally don't sell out to a publisher if they are doing just fine on their own. It's generally a mutually beneficial decision. Publishers provide capital. Publishers have foreign and domestic distribution channels. Publishers have marketing teams. Publishers have QA teams. Publishers have localization teams. Publishers have contracts with console developers for access to hardware and development tools. Publishers have certification teams. Publishers have legal teams. These are all things that a development studio must foot the bill for on their own if they wish to remain autonomous, and these are non-trivial costs. The smaller the studio, the more relatively expensive these costs become. The bigger you are, the more efficient these become because you can have one localization team cycle between multiple projects, one QA team cycle between multiple projects, one accounting department, etc.

To be honest, a lot of the studios that get picked up by publishers aren't in good shape. Bioware is a prime example of this - they were hemmorhaging money, despite making critically acclaimed and well-beloved games, and their operations weren't sustainable. EA merged with them and Pandemic, provided capital, lowered the overhead costs, and enabled them to continue operating, and today Bioware is a pretty reasonable financial success in the entertainment software world. Pandemic was unable to become solvent, and was shut down. Publishers don't like having to lay people off and close studios. It's almost always a huge loss for them, and that means lost money. That's never a good thing; at the high level publishers and developers want the same thing - for studios to be productive, on time, and to make quality titles that sell well. When things go off budget, off schedule, off projections, then things have trouble. One of the biggest problems in the industry is the hyperbole in general - studios will often overpromise in order to obtain funding, which leads to overblown expectations, which leads to horrendous crunch to deliver what was promised, which leads to a shoddier product at the end.

It's easy to stand on the outside and say "Well, maybe the studios should just bite the bullet and live with it", but when you're a studio head and there are 100+ people who are depending on you to pay their mortgages and feed their families, I don't think "We should turn down EA/Ubisoft/Activision/etc. and instead just declare bankruptcy and lay everybody off in a month or two instead" is really a viable option. These are the actual sort of problems studio heads face. All that money has to come from somewhere, and if it isn't from a publisher, there's nowhere else aside from building your own distribution chain and self-publishing.

Studios that do well get to name their price and remain as autonomous as they want. Bungie, Blizzard, etc. are part of larger publishers, but they are more-or-less free to do exactly what it is they want, because they bring it financially.

But developers keep doing it. Maybe EA's policies cause the backslide, or maybe it is the influx of new resources that cause the developers to begin chasing CoD sales pipe dream ideas... I really can't say for sure. But the history really does tell a tale.


It doesn't tell the sort of tale you seem to want it to. Lots of studios fold over time. Some of them were because of publisher interference. Some of them were killed by their own mismanagement. You're insinuating something that you don't have any evidence for aside from "Well, I think this is how it is." I've worked for a lot of studios, both indie and publisher-owned. I've seen it happen from the inside, and it isn't how you're implying it is. The most important thing that can happen is the estimated sales forecasts. Publishers pour tons of time, energy, and money into these forecasts because it is literally the most important thing about development there is. Despite what conspiracy theorists say, publishers really don't all expect CoD sales for all games ever. That's not only ridiculous, but it just doesn't make sense for niche genres like fighting games, sports games, tactical RPGs, puzzle games, etc. to aim for that many sales. There is no way you're going to convince anyone that Tiger Woods Golf is seriously expecting to sell 25 million copies, but their team size is much more reasonable - they generally only employ ~30-40 developers or so, and they generally sell and earn enough to warrant a new game each year. They generate less revenue than FIFA's DLC by itself, but it's still enough to keep profitable, so they continue to develop it.

And the fans are the ones who ultimately suffer. Either with poorer IPs, cancelled studios, new policies like DRM or new revenue streams like D1DLC... it all seems to fall back on the gamers of the world rather than the publishers.


I'd say it's the developers who suffer more than the fans. You don't get an entertainment product you used to like. They lose their jobs and livelihoods.

I'm tempted to say "and that's why I Kickstart a lot more now" but I don't think that is honestly going to be the long-term solution. Every game can't be crowd-sourced and funded on a showstring. AAA developers and big-name publishers need to have a better way of doing business. Because before long, everything is going to be entirely digitally streamed and then it won't matter if you have distribution chains with thousands of retailers... anyone can put a pay site and a download link on a website. So what will the publishers of the world be offering at that point?


They'll be offering the same thing that they have been offering. Funding, localization, QA, marketing, distribution channels, certification, contracts, legal, etc. at a significantly reduced cost to the studio.

#459
Steppenwolf

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EntropicAngel wrote...

I disagree. ME3 before the EC was a broken galaxy on the verge of renewal. ME3 after the EC was...the same. The only things they actually changed were the relays--just disabled instead of destroyed (which I hate because it's agreeing with the false assumption that destroyed=collision with a planet-sized asteroid)--and your squaddies picked up during the beam run--something else I hate because it agrees with the false assumption that your squadmates would have run up the beam even if they didn't think you were alive.

The EC fundamentally changed nothing about the ending except the tone, you're right about that.

Something I dislike, also. I wonder if there's a way to disable the EC so I can experience the intended ending, without actually uninstalling it (because they said it would cost money after a certain date).


The EC cut endings show the galaxy thriving. It's not really at all debatable that they changed the endings from grimdark to, at the very least, less than grimdark. The original endings had the relays being destroyed and the Normandy crew stranded on an alien world without a functioning ship. That means all of the aliens who were at Earth for the final battle were standed in our system, many of them without clear ways to produce enough food to survive for very long. It also means that interstellar travel is now a thing of the past, essentially setting back the galaxy hundreds or even thousands of years.
The EC changed ALL of that. The Normandy crew just had a little siesta on that alien planet. The relays were just in need of repairs. And everything goes back to how it was before the Reapers showed up. Hell, things were better even. That's radically different.

EntropicAngel wrote...

...they do need to win back a lot of people. DA devs have said so themselves. They decided to drastically change the Dragon Age formula after one surprisingly successful installment and that resulted in a loss in sales of 50%.


I disagree, but I've already been over why.


But it doesn't really matter if you disagree. The Dragon Age team think they need to win back the fans they lost. Unless you're telling them they're wrong and that somehow DA][ sold twice as many units as they think it did your opinion is irrelevant on that particular issue.

#460
IanPolaris

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Hoorayforicecream,

All of that is true, but I think it overlooks an important difference. Bioware didn't go to EA (nor did Pandemic) had in hand looking for a handout (although as you noted many other Dev companies did). Rather Bioware and Pandemic tried to merge and reduce many of the costs you were talking about, and then the CEO of the Holding Company sold both of them down the river to EA by selling the majority of the holding company to EA without Bioware or Pandemic's knowledge or consent.

It was a classic hostile takeover.

-Polaris

#461
hoorayforicecream

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IanPolaris wrote...

It was a classic hostile takeover.


Only if you can provide proof that Bioware/Pandemic did not wish to be sold to EA. I don't remember any rejection of any offers, or proxy battles at Elevation Partners. If Bioware truly did not wish to be sold to EA, why on earth would the co-CEOs of Bioware (Ray and Greg) stay on and become executives at EA for years after?

#462
mousestalker

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IanPolaris wrote...

Hoorayforicecream,

All of that is true, but I think it overlooks an important difference. Bioware didn't go to EA (nor did Pandemic) had in hand looking for a handout (although as you noted many other Dev companies did). Rather Bioware and Pandemic tried to merge and reduce many of the costs you were talking about, and then the CEO of the Holding Company sold both of them down the river to EA by selling the majority of the holding company to EA without Bioware or Pandemic's knowledge or consent.

It was a classic hostile takeover.

-Polaris


I do not believe I have encountered that version of events. Do you have a citation for it?

#463
Steppenwolf

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

It was a classic hostile takeover.


Only if you can provide proof that Bioware/Pandemic did not wish to be sold to EA. I don't remember any rejection of any offers, or proxy battles at Elevation Partners. If Bioware truly did not wish to be sold to EA, why on earth would the co-CEOs of Bioware (Ray and Greg) stay on and become executives at EA for years after?


Their own self-interests? Not wishing to be unemployed? Deciding having money is better than having no money?

#464
Chris Priestly

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As someone who worked here during BioWare's merger with Pandemic and then the subsequent purchase by EA, I can say that is an incorrect version of the actual occurances.

Well, this has drifted FAR off the topic of Dragon Age 3, so it gets closed now. Both myself and Cameron have said that "No, Dragon Age 3 will not be rushed". Obviously, the proof will be whether it is rushed or not.

When it isn't, a few people will likely go "Huh, I guess they said they weren't going to rush it and they didn't. Good." And likely a few more people will go "<snark>Well done BioWare. What do you want, a medal? You should have not rushed yadda yadda froth foam rant</snark>". Should it come out and it is rushed (which it won't be) I know many people will have bookmarked this thread and will take no end of glee in forever using the words we have said here against us.

So, with that, the thread ends until proof is available and you can all make up your minds whether it was rushed or not.



:devil: