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[MrCrabby]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

MrCrabby wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
To be fair, DA2 scored high amongst the gaming press. It was the fan reaction that told a very different story. One could interpret this in a few ways. Either the gaming press aren't critical enough of the games they review or fans are being overly critical. I like to think it's a bit of both most of the time. However, in this case, I think the fans were pretty spot on about all the things wrong with this sequel.

A major studio could put out a child abuse simulator and still get high scores from the gaming "press". I want the game to be great because I love Origins and it's style of RPG. I'm just not optimistic based on the comments the developers have already made.

Such as?

Mike Laidlaw stated "The key is not to do a 180, because we've done this". (In reference to Dragon Age 2's changes)

The main criticisms were:

1. No racial choices - Dragon Age 3 is not allowing racial choices.

2. No origins - Dragon Age 3 is not bringing this back, except as a text selection. Mass Effect also had backgrounds like this and it effected exactly nothing. I think there were exactly four references to Shepards background the entire series and it effected nothing in terms of story or game play. Whoop de freakin' do.

3. Dialogue wheel - Players didn't like this and they are bringing it back anyway.

4. Lack of party customization. They have stated that armour would to the characters to preserve their unique body movements. We'll see what this translates to.

5. Hack and slash gameplay devoid of strategy. Nothing is being shown so I can't comment.

6. Re-used environments. Well at least one thing is getting addressed.

Also their general attitude "Dragon Age 2 polarized fans". They clearly need to look up the definition of polarization. For every fan who liked Dragon Age 2 ten hated it. The dislike was overwhelming. They even had to create a separate forum just for game owners to try and contain the hatred.

They also use phrases like "some fans dislike certain aspects" which is such a gross understatement, almost the entire game was reviled.  This is a company used to praise and success and seems to have a very very difficult time accepting their mistakes and instead they choose to minimize and downplay the level of criticism. And given the creative decisions it seems they are going to double down of their failure rather than embrace their fans wishes.

It's their company and their prerogative...and it is the fans to choose not to support it.

I could be wrong and they really knock this out of the park, but in sincerely doubt it.

Modifié par MrCrabby, 08 mai 2013 - 06:09 .

[Conduit0]

MrCrabby wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

MrCrabby wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
To be fair, DA2 scored high amongst the gaming press. It was the fan reaction that told a very different story. One could interpret this in a few ways. Either the gaming press aren't critical enough of the games they review or fans are being overly critical. I like to think it's a bit of both most of the time. However, in this case, I think the fans were pretty spot on about all the things wrong with this sequel.

A major studio could put out a child abuse simulator and still get high scores from the gaming "press". I want the game to be great because I love Origins and it's style of RPG. I'm just not optimistic based on the comments the developers have already made.

Such as?

Mike Laidlaw stated "The key is not to do a 180, because we've done this". (In reference to Dragon Age 2's changes)

The main criticisms were:

1. No racial choices - Dragon Age 3 is not allowing racial choices.

2. No origins - Dragon Age 3 is not bringing this back, except as a text selection. Mass Effect also had backgrounds like this and it effected exactly nothing. I think there were exactly four references to Shepards background the entire series and it effected nothing in terms of story or game play. Whoop de freakin' do.

3. Dialogue wheel - Players didn't like this and they are bringing it back anyway.

4. Lack of party customization. They have stated that armour would to the characters to preserve their unique body movements. We'll see what this translates to.

5. Hack and slash gameplay devoid of strategy. Nothing is being shown so I can't comment.

6. Re-used environments. Well at least one thing is getting addressed.

Also their general attitude "Dragon Age 2 polarized fans". They clearly need to look up the definition of polarization. For every fan who liked Dragon Age 2 ten hated it. The dislike was overwhelming. They even had to create a separate forum just for game owners to try and contain the hatred.

They also use phrases like "some fans dislike certain aspects" which is such a gross understatement, almost the entire game was reviled.  This is a company used to praise and success and seems to have a very very difficult time accepting their mistakes and instead they choose to minimize and downplay the level of criticism. And given the creative decisions it seems they are going to double down of their failure rather than embrace their fans wishes.

It's their company and their prerogative...and it is the fans to choose not to support it.

I could be wrong and they really knock this out of the park, but in sincerely doubt it.

10 out of 10 proctologists agree that DA2 haters pull their information from their rectums.

See, anyone can make up nonsense hyperbolic statements. Its not impressive and only serves to rob your opinion of any credibility.

[Izana]

MrCrabby wrote...

2. No origins - Dragon Age 3 is not bringing this back, except as a text selection. Mass Effect also had backgrounds like this and it effected exactly nothing. I think there were exactly four references to Shepards background the entire series and it effected nothing in terms of story or game play. Whoop de freakin' do.

3. Dialogue wheel - Players didn't like this and they are bringing it back anyway.

2. We know nothing on how the origins will be played out besides that it won't be playable. Too early to jump to the conclusion that it will be like Mass Effect in that regard. It's been also stated that the chosen backgrounds will effect the story. They have yet to prove it, but it's a hint that they seem to aim higher than what Mass Effect did.

3. Correction: Some players didn't like it, while others are okay with it.  

[addiction21]

Sanunes wrote...


Sounds about right, every game BioWare has released since the original Baulder's Gate has been unfaithful to the real fans

And there it is. You did not have to say anything more ( I did read it all but this is my view).

BioWare thru out their history has never been faithful to anything other then the story and characters.

To many get caught up on "That one BioWare game" that they expect BioWare as a hole to adhere to. BioWare even for the Mass Effect team or even the "spiritual successor to BG" was far closer to KoToR. A game that everyone should hate but they seam to have nothing but love for.

And when it does not meet these idealized versions of "that BioWare game" that one that brought them into the fold, it is wrong. It being rushed is the easiest complaint to throw out but at this point, we have passed the point that they are damned if they do or damned if they don't.

It is a witchhunt.

[Scroll]

addiction21 wrote...

Sanunes wrote...


Sounds about right, every game BioWare has released since the original Baulder's Gate has been unfaithful to the real fans

And there it is. You did not have to say anything more ( I did read it all but this is my view).

BioWare thru out their history has never been faithful to anything other then the story and characters.

To many get caught up on "That one BioWare game" that they expect BioWare as a hole to adhere to. BioWare even for the Mass Effect team or even the "spiritual successor to BG" was far closer to KoToR. A game that everyone should hate but they seam to have nothing but love for.

And when it does not meet these idealized versions of "that BioWare game" that one that brought them into the fold, it is wrong. It being rushed is the easiest complaint to throw out but at this point, we have passed the point that they are damned if they do or damned if they don't.

It is a witchhunt.

BioWare was never the company these people think it was: http://brokenergy.tu...ou-used-to-know

[Shevy]

Since there isn't and won't be a game that pleases everyone, every game gets hatred on release. And I think the developers can classify the outrage. Most of it is just opinion, but sometimes you have things which are obviously bad like programming issues ( tearing, freezes, etc.), testing issues ( heavy bugs ) or really unfortunate features ( is there anyone who liked the re-used environments? I can't think of a reason as why you would like it ).

Those are things I think developers are looking for and trying to get rid of them. Things like "I hate dialogue wheel" or "I don't like a voiced protag", "I don't like being human only" are just different tastes and I think don't influence devs that much and they follow their vision of where to bring the game/franchise and maybe just take a look where you could improve the feature they want to integrate.

And that's great.

I already know I propably won't like some of the confirmed features of DA III ( I never felt connected to a voiced protag til yet, but maybe they can do it ) and voicing your skepticism is good, I do it too. But I would really wish that the people around here would start to voice it appropriately. The same counts for the ones who then start to bash the "haters" and defend DA II. Like DA II as much as you want, but by calling everyone who doesn't a hater makes you not even a tiny bit better than those who actually hate it inappropriately.

Sometimes it's really not that great counting myself to this community, I mean we were even mentioned by David Gaider as being overly toxic over a period of time. Just be a little more civil, don't use dev quotes out of context or lay words in theirs mouths and I think it would be more comfortable around here and we may would have more devs to chat with.

Modifié par Shevy_001, 08 mai 2013 - 01:11 .

[KDD-0063]

I think one thing that I could have some faith in is that DA3 is probably not going to be as ugly as DA2 even if other parts of the game may still be rushed. After all, they want to show off a bit with Frostbite 2.

[LPPrince]

KDD-0063 wrote...

I think one thing that I could have some faith in is that DA3 is probably not going to be as ugly as DA2 even if other parts of the game may still be rushed. After all, they want to show off a bit with Frostbite 2.

Ahem. Frostbite 3.

[ianvillan]

LPPrince wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

So DA3 needs less DA2 and more DA:O in the mix if it's gonna be seen as a "return to form" by people. Bioware PR said that's what they were shooting for, so we'll see how it goes. I'll withhold judgment on that front until a bigger reveal for the game drops.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa hoooooold it.

They said(repeatedly) that they were going to try to mix the best of both worlds into DA3, and at no point clarified exactly what they meant by that(as in what the best of DAO and best of DA2 actually were).

I don't recall them ever saying they were going to put more DAO than DA2 into DA3.

Believe me, I WISH that were the case, but I highly doubt it will be.

I think you are right about DA3 having little of Origins systems added to DA2 to make a game that would be the best of both worlds. Bioware said that DA2 already had all the best bits of Origins in it, and with the details they are saying that will be in DA3 which are features of DA2 I see a game that is DA2 in a different name.

[azarhal]

Scr0ll wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Sanunes wrote...


Sounds about right, every game BioWare has released since the original Baulder's Gate has been unfaithful to the real fans

And there it is. You did not have to say anything more ( I did read it all but this is my view).

BioWare thru out their history has never been faithful to anything other then the story and characters.

To many get caught up on "That one BioWare game" that they expect BioWare as a hole to adhere to. BioWare even for the Mass Effect team or even the "spiritual successor to BG" was far closer to KoToR. A game that everyone should hate but they seam to have nothing but love for.

And when it does not meet these idealized versions of "that BioWare game" that one that brought them into the fold, it is wrong. It being rushed is the easiest complaint to throw out but at this point, we have passed the point that they are damned if they do or damned if they don't.

It is a witchhunt.

BioWare was never the company these people think it was: http://brokenergy.tu...ou-used-to-know

Oh dear that thing is funny...

[EpicBoot2daFace]

MrCrabby wrote...

Mike Laidlaw stated "The key is not to do a 180, because we've done this". (In reference to Dragon Age 2's changes)

The main criticisms were:

1. No racial choices - Dragon Age 3 is not allowing racial choices.

This is true.

2. No origins - Dragon Age 3 is not bringing this back, except as a text selection. Mass Effect also had backgrounds like this and it effected exactly nothing. I think there were exactly four references to Shepards background the entire series and it effected nothing in terms of story or game play. Whoop de freakin' do.

BioWare never said Shepard's background would have a dramatic effect on the story.

3. Dialogue wheel - Players didn't like this and they are bringing it back anyway.

Can you provide numbers to back this up? "People" can mean anything.

4. Lack of party customization. They have stated that armour would to the characters to preserve their unique body movements. We'll see what this translates to.

From what I've heard and read, customization is a big focus for the design team. The stuff that was shown a while back looked promising.

5. Hack and slash gameplay devoid of strategy. Nothing is being shown so I can't comment.

Then why list it?

6. Re-used environments. Well at least one thing is getting addressed.

Already addressed. Why list this?

Also their general attitude "Dragon Age 2 polarized fans". They clearly need to look up the definition of polarization. For every fan who liked Dragon Age 2 ten hated it. The dislike was overwhelming. They even had to create a separate forum just for game owners to try and contain the hatred.

They also use phrases like "some fans dislike certain aspects" which is such a gross understatement, almost the entire game was reviled.  This is a company used to praise and success and seems to have a very very difficult time accepting their mistakes and instead they choose to minimize and downplay the level of criticism. And given the creative decisions it seems they are going to double down of their failure rather than embrace their fans wishes.

It's their company and their prerogative...and it is the fans to choose not to support it.

I could be wrong and they really knock this out of the park, but in sincerely doubt it.

It's a perfectly true statement. I didn't like the majority of the game, but there are people out there who did enjoy DA2 but disliked parts of it. BioWare does seem to have a problem accepting criticism, this is true. They often take it to the extreme and cut features that instead needed to be improved.

The "Defense of Dragon Age 2" article by Mike Laidlaw (which I often criticize) did BioWare no favors and actually made the game (and the company) look worse. Some people (myself included) believe a quality game will always be able to stand on it's own.

When a developer of a game feels compelled (for whatever reason, likely a bad reception) to publicly defend a game and deflect legitimate criticism, I get a little upset. David Cage of Quantic Dreams did the same thing when people legitimately criticised Heavy Rain's story and voice acting. I encourage people to take pride in their work but also not to be blinded by it.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 08 mai 2013 - 02:59 .

[Lluthren]

Lobos1988 wrote...

I have not been at BSN long, but I'm really amazed how many ****storms I had to read to filter out actual interesting information... I can understand the devs drawing out of BSN, hell I think that most of the guys throwing mud around would go fetal in some dark corner and cry for days when they had to hear stuff about they're work that was as bad as the things some people in here are throwing at them...

I know right.

You guys, don't worry. It probably won't be rushed like DA2, they can't afford that. It would lead to bad quality and bad sales leading to less money for other games. Also Bioware cares about their games, why would they even read the forums and make more games if they didn't?

Show some support you guys. By now i think they know what you didn't like...

[Fast Jimmy]

^

If they know what we didn't like, but have given no indication from the information we currently had that they have changed it... why exactly should support be shown?

That's the double edged sword they are wielding now. They are not showing anything to prevent getting fan expectations up... but we have absolutely nothing to base the game off of until it will be practically already on the shelves (if they stick with their projected release dates). At which point, fans can only say "well, you didn't listen to complaints at all," even if Bioware did THINK they were addressing complaints.

Keeping the entire project dark until it is "ready to show" is also another way of saying "building the game in a silo and hoping for the best."

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 08 mai 2013 - 03:27 .

[Cameron Lee]

DA3 won’t be rushed out, we won’t ship it until we’re proud of what we’ll be giving you.

[Knight of Dane]

Cameron Lee wrote...

DA3 won’t be rushed out, we won’t ship it until we’re proud of what we’ll be giving you.

That's all I need. I hope to work for a comapny that upholds this idea myself some day.

[LPPrince]

Cameron Lee wrote...

DA3 won’t be rushed out, we won’t ship it until we’re proud of what we’ll be giving you.

Forgive/understand those of us that are waiting to see things instead of taking faith in pre-release statements. Though you're a trustworthy guy so I don't think too many people will doubt you.

[LPPrince]

Really quick, just gonna-

EntropicAngel wrote...

And it's very interesting that the overwhelming majority of the criticism of DA ][ is made based on DA:O, not on the market. Not on the game itself.

Kind of speaks to the game's quality.

tilt my head to that in confusion

Anyway, DA2 being admitted as not as well received by Chris got my hopes up a little that things can turn around going forward.

But I need to see things change before I can believe they are. So I'll keep playing the waiting game.

[Dutchess]

EntropicAngel wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Also I would rather have the BIoWare teams working on any game with their experience and sincere love of what they are doing. Be it writing, coding, QA, cinematic design to the producers.  DA2 "might be BIowares worst game ever" but I would take that rushed mess over many others best games.

I agree wholeheartedly with this, and I've said before that I consider DA ][ one of, if not THE best, game that came out in 2011.

And it's very interesting that the overwhelming majority of the criticism of DA ][ is made based on DA:O, not on the market. Not on the game itself.

Kind of speaks to the game's quality.

Bah, I disagree. If 90% of the rest of the games on the market is bad, that's still no excuse for DA2 to be the "rushed mess" that it was. You can say the same about every other type of media. That you think 90% of the music sucks, 90% of what's shown on television, 90% of the books. I don't care whether that's the case. I don't play 90% of the games that are available. I don't listen to 90% of the music. That doesn't mean that I somehow should appreciate the bad apple that I get in my 10%. It simply means I decide that now 91% of the games that are made are not good. 

And if you think that there's barely any criticism for DA2 as a stand-alone, you really haven't been paying attention to the many, many posts on the subject. Even with voiced protag, limited dialogue options, human only and no origins the most serious flaws remain. And those flaws have nothing to do with DAO's shadow.

[ianvillan]

Cameron Lee wrote...

DA3 won’t be rushed out, we won’t ship it until we’re proud of what we’ll be giving you.

I appreciate you coming on here to talk to us and believe you do want to create the best game you can.
But Bioware says that they are proud of DA2 even though it had a short development time and had some problems.

whether DA2 was rushed or not a lot of fans believe it was and hearing Bioware say that they are proud of the game doesn't fill us with optimism for DA3.

[LPPrince]

ianvillan wrote...

Cameron Lee wrote...

DA3 won’t be rushed out, we won’t ship it until we’re proud of what we’ll be giving you.

I appreciate you coming on here to talk to us and believe you do want to create the best game you can.
But Bioware says that they are proud of DA2 even though it had a short development time and had some problems.

whether DA2 was rushed or not a lot of fans believe it was and hearing Bioware say that they are proud of the game doesn't fill us with optimism for DA3.

Well, you gotta give him and the rest of the team a break.

Lets say, PURELY HYPOTHETICALLY, that Mr. Cameron Lee, away from work, away from the forums, in his own personal opinion, felt Dragon Age 2 was a colossal mistake and failed in every way to follow Dragon Age Origins and be a good Dragon Age game.

He can't, shouldn't, and wouldn't come out and say, "Alright, the game sucks, no one buy it, everyone stop playing it like right now, move along".

Plus, he put hard ass work into Dragon Age 2. Even if it didn't get the reception he or his team were looking for, its no surprise that he'd be proud of what they all put their work and time into. They should be proud.

Hell, people can dislike DA2 all they want(I know I do) but it brought some great things into DA that can be used going forward, and they may of learned more from DA2 not doing so well than they would've if they made a DAO2 that succeeded.

So, lets let them do their thing and see what comes up.

[LPPrince]

EntropicAngel wrote...

And I'd love to hear these arguments, since most of the ones that I've heard have to do with DA:O.

Well, I'm gonna try to answer that in a way that doesn't derail the thread, so here goes-

I think you're seeing some arguments about things being "lesser" in DA2 than DAO and yeah, thats natural. But- I think you're also seeing criticisms of DA2 that are purely DA2 based, and then sometimes when people decide to cite a better example, they cite DAO.

An example of the former- Development time. DA2 took what, a year and a half to put out there? Compared to DAO's 6 years? Thats a comparison a lot of people will make. In a way, it even fits the latter as 18 months is going to be seen as short regardless of the development time of the first game.

But, on to the latter- Really terrible looking background characters. Almost 2D in appearance. People will call that out as, well their choice of descriptive word to put it down. No mention of DAO to be had.

But aye, my point is that comparisons to DAO will be made. Its only natural as DA2 is its sequel, even if it doesn't seem like it to a lot of people. Saying that most of the criticism is because its being compared to DAO is no way to hold DA2 up. DA2 had its positives for sure(some of which over DAO), and for those it should be lauded, but do understand if people spend the time comparing it to its predecessor rather than on its own. Because even when those same people look at it on its own, they'll still find many criticisms to make.

Modifié par LPPrince, 08 mai 2013 - 04:11 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

LPPrince wrote...

Cameron Lee wrote...

DA3 won’t be rushed out, we won’t ship it until we’re proud of what we’ll be giving you.

Forgive/understand those of us that are waiting to see things instead of taking faith in pre-release statements. Though you're a trustworthy guy so I don't think too many people will doubt you.

If it weren't for DA2 and ME3's quality issues (which I assume exist because the games were rushed) I wouldn't have any problem believing this guy. But I think I'll just take a wait and see approach to DA3.

[ianvillan]

LPPrince wrote...

Well, you gotta give him and the rest of the team a break.

Lets say, PURELY HYPOTHETICALLY, that Mr. Cameron Lee, away from work, away from the forums, in his own personal opinion, felt Dragon Age 2 was a colossal mistake and failed in every way to follow Dragon Age Origins and be a good Dragon Age game.

He can't, shouldn't, and wouldn't come out and say, "Alright, the game sucks, no one buy it, everyone stop playing it like right now, move along".

Plus, he put hard ass work into Dragon Age 2. Even if it didn't get the reception he or his team were looking for, its no surprise that he'd be proud of what they all put their work and time into. They should be proud.

Hell, people can dislike DA2 all they want(I know I do) but it brought some great things into DA that can be used going forward, and they may of learned more from DA2 not doing so well than they would've if they made a DAO2 that succeeded.

So, lets let them do their thing and see what comes up.

You are right and I do want to give the Devs a break and the benefit of believing that DA3 will be great, I think my reaction stems from just after DA2 was released and fans were complaining, how Bioware got super defensive and said that they were proud with what they released and it was the fans who couldn't stand change that had the problem.

It just seems like we are hearing the same phrases about DA3 as they said about DA2 and with the tiny info we are getting for DA3 being DA2 systems and features, and the lack of Origins features seems to be a repeat of DA2 with added shine. 

Modifié par ianvillan, 08 mai 2013 - 04:14 .