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since EA is getiing hit hard financially will they rush DA3 out


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#201
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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LPPrince wrote...

Well, I'm gonna try to answer that in a way that doesn't derail the thread, so here goes-

I think you're seeing some arguments about things being "lesser" in DA2 than DAO and yeah, thats natural. But- I think you're also seeing criticisms of DA2 that are purely DA2 based, and then sometimes when people decide to cite a better example, they cite DAO.

An example of the former- Development time. DA2 took what, a year and a half to put out there? Compared to DAO's 6 years? Thats a comparison a lot of people will make. In a way, it even fits the latter as 18 months is going to be seen as short regardless of the development time of the first game.

But, on to the latter- Really terrible looking background characters. Almost 2D in appearance. People will call that out as, well their choice of descriptive word to put it down. No mention of DAO to be had.

But aye, my point is that comparisons to DAO will be made. Its only natural as DA2 is its sequel, even if it doesn't seem like it to a lot of people. Saying that most of the criticism is because its being compared to DAO is no way to hold DA2 up. DA2 had its positives for sure(some of which over DAO), and for those it should be lauded, but do understand if people spend the time comparing it to its predecessor rather than on its own. Because even when those same people look at it on its own, they'll still find many criticisms to make.


These are fair.

But what I meant is, complaints comparing to DA:O and DA:O alone tell me that someone is judging something by DA:O, and not on its own merits. Anything can be painted as good or bad "relatively." It kind of invalidates the argument.

#202
LPPrince

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Believe me ianvillan, I want so much Origins in my DA3 that its DAO2 in disguise.

Which is actually quite a funny name, as DAO+DA2=DAO2

#203
LPPrince

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EntropicAngel wrote...

These are fair.

But what I meant is, complaints comparing to DA:O and DA:O alone tell me that someone is judging something by DA:O, and not on its own merits. Anything can be painted as good or bad "relatively." It kind of invalidates the argument.


Ahh, so I take it you mean the arguments like, "Zevran looks like garbage in DA2 because he doesn't look anything like he did in DAO"?

Hahah, I bring that up because I have that exact opinion.

#204
ianvillan

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LPPrince wrote...

Believe me ianvillan, I want so much Origins in my DA3 that its DAO2 in disguise.

Which is actually quite a funny name, as DAO+DA2=DAO2


I too would love DAO2, I would even like an equal mix of DAO and DA2 but I am expecting DA2.2.

#205
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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LPPrince wrote...

Ahh, so I take it you mean the arguments like, "Zevran looks like garbage in DA2 because he doesn't look anything like he did in DAO"?

Hahah, I bring that up because I have that exact opinion.


Or that Elves look bad in DA ][ compared to DA:O. Or that the combat is not tactical (almost all versions of this argument point to DA:O).

#206
LPPrince

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EntropicAngel wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Ahh, so I take it you mean the arguments like, "Zevran looks like garbage in DA2 because he doesn't look anything like he did in DAO"?

Hahah, I bring that up because I have that exact opinion.


Or that Elves look bad in DA ][ compared to DA:O. Or that the combat is not tactical (almost all versions of this argument point to DA:O).


Ahh, hahah yeah. Well, they do. And it isn't(in some certain respects).

BUT GAH, BACK TO RUSHING/NOT RUSHING.

#207
LPPrince

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ianvillan wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Believe me ianvillan, I want so much Origins in my DA3 that its DAO2 in disguise.

Which is actually quite a funny name, as DAO+DA2=DAO2


I too would love DAO2, I would even like an equal mix of DAO and DA2 but I am expecting DA2.2.


Your expectation is met by more than you can imagine, I'm sure.

#208
MerinTB

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EntropicAngel wrote...
Or that the combat is not tactical (almost all versions of this argument point to DA:O).


Combat in DA2 could be tactical in some sense, but is not what I mean when I want tactical combat.  For me, when I think tactical, I first think turn-based.  Then I'll relent and accept pause and play where you can pause, switch between party members, and give each character AT LEAST a couple orders to engage in after unpausing.

I don't consider "which buttons should I push in which order, and which enemy should I aim myself at first" to be nearly enough for the combat to meet even the most minimal of my standards of what tactical is.

#209
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MerinTB wrote...

Combat in DA2 could be tactical in some sense, but is not what I mean when I want tactical combat.  For me, when I think tactical, I first think turn-based.  Then I'll relent and accept pause and play where you can pause, switch between party members, and give each character AT LEAST a couple orders to engage in after unpausing.

I don't consider "which buttons should I push in which order, and which enemy should I aim myself at first" to be nearly enough for the combat to meet even the most minimal of my standards of what tactical is.


That's fair. But the argument of some (I actually spoke to someone about this a day or two ago), is that DA ][ is not tactical in comparison to DA:O.

I personally don't really see how DA:O is really very much more tactical than DA ][.

If I want tactical combat, I'll play Hammer & Sickle or some RTSes. Not DA.

Modifié par EntropicAngel, 08 mai 2013 - 04:38 .


#210
Cameron Lee

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EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Cameron Lee wrote...

DA3 won’t be rushed out, we won’t ship it until we’re proud of what we’ll be giving you.


Forgive/understand those of us that are waiting to see things instead of taking faith in pre-release statements. Though you're a trustworthy guy so I don't think too many people will doubt you.

If it weren't for DA2 and ME3's quality issues (which I assume exist because the games were rushed) I wouldn't have any problem believing this guy. But I think I'll just take a wait and see approach to DA3.


I completely understand your approach and I hope you’ll feel differently after DA3.

We don’t have the same kinds of business pressures that DA2 had, but we do have a self-imposed pressure to give you guys & gals something you’ll love, and that’s a pressure the people on the team can get behind.

There’s a saying in the industry that “you’re only as good as your last game”, I prefer to believe that “you’re only as good as your next game” and I think this is something our players deserve. 

#211
LPPrince

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Cameron Lee wrote...

There’s a saying in the industry that “you’re only as good as your last game”, I prefer to believe that “you’re only as good as your next game” and I think this is something our players deserve. 


Sounds like someone's looking forward.

#212
Fast Jimmy

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LPPrince wrote...

Cameron Lee wrote...

There’s a saying in the industry that “you’re only as good as your last game”, I prefer to believe that “you’re only as good as your next game” and I think this is something our players deserve. 


Sounds like someone's looking forward.


I like it. 

They should put this guy Cameron in charge or something! :D

#213
Palidane

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LPPrince wrote...

Cameron Lee wrote...

There’s a saying in the industry that “you’re only as good as your last game”, I prefer to believe that “you’re only as good as your next game” and I think this is something our players deserve. 

Sounds like someone's looking forward.

Hear hear! To a better Bioware and a better tomorrow!

Modifié par Palidane, 08 mai 2013 - 05:14 .


#214
ianvillan

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Cameron Lee wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Cameron Lee wrote...

DA3 won’t be rushed out, we won’t ship it until we’re proud of what we’ll be giving you.


Forgive/understand those of us that are waiting to see things instead of taking faith in pre-release statements. Though you're a trustworthy guy so I don't think too many people will doubt you.

If it weren't for DA2 and ME3's quality issues (which I assume exist because the games were rushed) I wouldn't have any problem believing this guy. But I think I'll just take a wait and see approach to DA3.


I completely understand your approach and I hope you’ll feel differently after DA3.

We don’t have the same kinds of business pressures that DA2 had, but we do have a self-imposed pressure to give you guys & gals something you’ll love, and that’s a pressure the people on the team can get behind.

There’s a saying in the industry that “you’re only as good as your last game”, I prefer to believe that “you’re only as good as your next game” and I think this is something our players deserve. 




I can't speak for other people but I hope that you know that even though I complain about some of your past games that I like Bioware as a company and believe you are capable of creating the best games around and that when I personally believe that Bioware has fallen in quality you are able to get back on top.

I hope the business pressures have gone and that Bioware is free to make the same quality games that they used to make and do have time to make a great game.

#215
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Lord Aesir wrote...

greengoron89 wrote..

In Exile wrote...
DA:O had a lot of hype and marketing. If you had been around when the game was coming out, the forum almost imploded in rage when the first "this is the new ****" trailer was released and calls for the head of every Bioware developer flooded the forum. It was almost as bad as the time when they changed the DA logo, added the bloodsplatter dragon, and one poster kept hating on the actual origins as the death of roleplay by calling MShep "Eddie". 

Not to mention that based on the original pitch, DA:O was preceeded by a hit game that sold millions - the basically legendary BG2. In fact, the most common debate we use to have on the old bioware boards prior to DA:O's release was how DA:O was going to tank and it represented Bioware selling out to the MMO crowd by abandoning everything good about BG2. 

Lots of features were hated on, like origins stories and the entire combat. 

...

...if that's really the kind of stuff people were saying about DA:O before it came out, then I'm glad I wasn't around back then... because that's probably the most profoundly retarded s*** I've ever heard. :|

Really puts things in perspective, doesn't it?


It does. :mellow:

I withdraw my previous arguments. Just let DA3 be a good and worthy sequel and a return to form for Bioware. That's all anyone can ask for.

#216
CrazyRah

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greengoron89 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

greengoron89 wrote..

In Exile wrote...
DA:O had a lot of hype and marketing. If you had been around when the game was coming out, the forum almost imploded in rage when the first "this is the new ****" trailer was released and calls for the head of every Bioware developer flooded the forum. It was almost as bad as the time when they changed the DA logo, added the bloodsplatter dragon, and one poster kept hating on the actual origins as the death of roleplay by calling MShep "Eddie". 

Not to mention that based on the original pitch, DA:O was preceeded by a hit game that sold millions - the basically legendary BG2. In fact, the most common debate we use to have on the old bioware boards prior to DA:O's release was how DA:O was going to tank and it represented Bioware selling out to the MMO crowd by abandoning everything good about BG2. 

Lots of features were hated on, like origins stories and the entire combat. 

...

...if that's really the kind of stuff people were saying about DA:O before it came out, then I'm glad I wasn't around back then... because that's probably the most profoundly retarded s*** I've ever heard. :|

Really puts things in perspective, doesn't it?


It does. :mellow:

I withdraw my previous arguments. Just let DA3 be a good and worthy sequel and a return to form for Bioware. That's all anyone can ask for.


Daaa-aaaaamn! :mellow:

That really do put things into quite the perspective

#217
Dutchess

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EntropicAngel wrote...

And I'd love to hear these arguments, since most of the ones that I've heard have to do with DA:O.


I can't believe this is necessary for you, because it's al been said before, but here goes.

Two of the most obvious and that are often mentioned are the recycled environments and the wave combat. These also seem to be the two that Bioware feels are safe to acknowledge and are being mentioned nearly every time when a dev comes out to make it clear that they are aware of the game's problems and that they listen to criticism. 

However, for me these things are not what made the game such a disappointment. It really was the story. And that was not because I had to be the hero who saves the day and the world like in DAO. It was not because my rigid fan brain could not handle a story of a smaller scope or because I'm to stupid to get a more "personal" story. It's because a lot was not believable. There's no main antagonist, which could have been interesting, but in DA2 the result was simply that you had to deal with a lot of minor antagonists who all appeared to be crazy. It's like the game was some kind of asylum challenge. Bartrand, Tarohne, Quentin, Orsino, Meredith, Anders, random crazy elf in Blackpowder Courtesy, Grace, Evelina, Huon. Even the Arishok has a bout of crazy homesickness in which he decides to kill everybody to move the plot forward (I doubt cutting off people's heads is a demand of the Qun, since it won't get him his book and dead people are not converted and also useless for the Qunari) All these people play a role in a primary quest and all turn out to be less than sane. A crazy antagonist can be interesting, but when the entire cast goes nuts it becomes too much. Some have had more time and it can be debated that they have a valid "reason" to turn out the way they are (like Anders, or Arishok). But most are just crazy so they don't have to elaborate on reasons and stuff and you simply get to kill them quickly (after commenting on how they're barking mad). It gets old really quickly, is not convincing and comes acros as a quick and easy way of writing in another opponent without much further thought. 

Then there's the way the three-year gaps are handled. The time-jumps appear to be only there to say that time has passed, but there's practically nothing that visibly changes and everything waits for Hawke to leave his/her house to progress again. The gaps could have  been one year and it wouldn't have made it a difference. I think it might have been even better to have shorter gap, because it would have made story progression feel less disjointed. It also would have made more sense with regards to the companions and their personal quests/romances (especially Fenris). 

That barely anything visibly changes is also part that makes Kirkwall so unconvincing as the big city it's supposed to be. The only change I've noticed is that in Act 3 the Qunari compound is closed off and there's a big statue of a dude in heavy armor carrying a flaming sword and his foot on the head of the Arishok, independent of whether your Hawke was male or female, warrior, mage or rogue, gave the tome to the Arishok and let him leave or dueled him. Kirkwall is supposed to be overrun with refugees when you first arrive, yet the Gallows where all the refugees are forced to stay is almost empty. Every part of the city in every act is far too empty to give the feeling of major port city with lots of refugees. 

Lack of choices and even greater lack of consequences is another glaring issue. You're railroaded into everything. I have played lineair games and can enjoy them, but in an RPG I think it's a different matter, especially if it tries to give the illusion that it is offering choices. It ends up contributing to the unconvincing feeling of the story. If you've chosen to support the mages in everything and spoke out against Meredith in public, you're still confronted with Thrask & co. who are convinced you're on Meredith's side (yes, you had to hunt bloodmages for her, but if they know so well what she's capable of, it should at the very least occur to them that Hawke has been blackmailed) and abducted the person closest to you. You've killed templars to let Grace escape, yet in act 3 she suddenly hates you and decides to kill the hostage and Hawke for no real reason. Except or more crazy. You're on the side of the mages and defend them till the end, yet Osino thinks it's a great time to turn into a harvester and start killing his allies. 
The DLC, which was claimed to improve upon issues of the main game, did little to correct this. "Give me the list, Tallis." Tallis: "No! Here's a gem!" Hawke: :o

Graphics and game aesthetics are quite often brushed aside as not important, but I think it can really contribute to the immersion of the game, and DA2 had several instances of ugliness that really pulled me out of the game. The main characters have obviously had the most work and looked decent enough (except for the female hands). But more minor characters had makeup that didn't suit a medieval look at all and looked more like the women used wall paint to paint their lips (Tarohne, Orana, madame Luisine (yes, she's a hooker. Still no excuse for that)). 
Some environments also had had more work than others, but the same low-res wall texture (I think it was supposed to be...wood) is used in Gamlen's house, Merrill's house, entire Darktown and the sewers (which looked more like an attic or something). 

I think these are the most important reasons, although for me the story is the most essential and was therefore enough to ruin the experience for me.


Cameron Lee wrote...

We don’t have the same kinds of business pressures that DA2 had, but we do have a self-imposed pressure to give you guys & gals something you’ll love, and that’s a pressure the people on the team can get behind.

There’s a saying in the industry that “you’re only as good as your last game”, I prefer to believe that “you’re only as good as your next game” and I think this is something our players deserve.  


I appreciate this and truly hope Bioware will live up to its word and turn things around with the next game. It would definitely do a lot for my trust and confidence in the company.:)

Modifié par renjility, 08 mai 2013 - 05:57 .


#218
EpicBoot2daFace

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Cameron Lee wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Cameron Lee wrote...

DA3 won’t be rushed out, we won’t ship it until we’re proud of what we’ll be giving you.


Forgive/understand those of us that are waiting to see things instead of taking faith in pre-release statements. Though you're a trustworthy guy so I don't think too many people will doubt you.

If it weren't for DA2 and ME3's quality issues (which I assume exist because the games were rushed) I wouldn't have any problem believing this guy. But I think I'll just take a wait and see approach to DA3.


I completely understand your approach and I hope you’ll feel differently after DA3.

Thanks for understanding. I'm looking forward to seeing the game at E3. :D

#219
garrusfan1

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once again what I meant by rushed was what they have left to do not the whole thing

#220
golak

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sickpixie wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

No. DA3 will not be rushed.



:devil:


Arrgh! My pessimism, it flees!

Take these words with a grain of salt.


HAH! PR FTW!

#221
Fast Jimmy

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garrusfan1 wrote...

once again what I meant by rushed was what they have left to do not the whole thing


For the record, you could always edit the original post and title to clarify?

#222
garrusfan1

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

garrusfan1 wrote...

once again what I meant by rushed was what they have left to do not the whole thing


For the record, you could always edit the original post and title to clarify?

I thought it was clear from the start but I will modify

#223
Sylvius the Mad

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EntropicAngel wrote...

I'm not arguing that 90% of the games on the market are "bad." I'm arguing that the games lie wherever they lie, good or bad, but DA ][ is "gooder" or better than the majority of them.

Is that relevant, though?  If a game fails to meet some gamer's standard of adequacy, does it matter if most other games also don't?

#224
MerinTB

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Cameron Lee wrote...
I completely understand your approach and I hope you’ll feel differently after DA3. 

We don’t have the same kinds of business pressures that DA2 had, but we do have a self-imposed pressure to give you guys & gals something you’ll love, and that’s a pressure the people on the team can get behind.

There’s a saying in the industry that “you’re only as good as your last game”, I prefer to believe that “you’re only as good as your next game” and I think this is something our players deserve. 


Well said.

Merin's anticipation of DA3 moves up a notch.

#225
MerinTB

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

I'm not arguing that 90% of the games on the market are "bad." I'm arguing that the games lie wherever they lie, good or bad, but DA ][ is "gooder" or better than the majority of them.

Is that relevant, though?  If a game fails to meet some gamer's standard of adequacy, does it matter if most other games also don't?


A low bar does make clearing it something of a non-event, no?:mellow: