38 réponses à ce sujet

[Ansive]

It's making the game unplayable for me... especially with a rogue.

I tell the dwarf to attack someone, switch to my rogue to flank and what do I see?.. the dwarf starts attacking someone else or runs off to some distant archer/mage.

Sometimes they just run around provoking attacks of opportunity...

How do I prevent the AI from switching targets?
If I tell someone to attack a specific target I expect him to stick to it until the end.

Puppet mode is also unplayable since they won't even listen to follow/attack/hold/guard commands.

[kevL]

having dabbled with the AI scripts, i don't believe it's possible ( without changing the scripts - they seem to decide who an AI-controlled N/PC attacks )

What I suggest doing, is when you really want/need that dwarf on an opponent to occupy its attention Turn the Dwarf's AI to off and then with the dwarf selected have it start attacking that opponent. Leave its AI off while you switch control to your rogue and flank!

Ansive wrote...

Puppet mode is also unplayable since they won't even listen to follow/attack/hold/guard commands.

right. But i think you need it for this.

What's most annoying is having to access the Character->Behavior tab to switch the dwarf (only) to Puppet.

[Ansive]

I've played most of the Bioware and Black Isle DnD games, but this one is the first one to frustrate me so much. (spent over 2 days setting it up)
I don't remember having issues with the Kotor party system/AI...

I would have been happy with the AI listening to the 4 basic commands and have it auto engage the closest enemy when given no other command. But I guess there no middle ground.

I might eventually give up on the NWN 1 style gameplay and use the dungeon siege/RTS control scheme with AI turned off...

By the way, does TonyK's AI mod fix this targeting issue?

[kevL]

Ansive wrote...

By the way, does TonyK's AI mod fix this targeting issue?

It might, i'd certainly give it a shot because it does seem to have somewhat advanced handling for targets. I use it and anyone who plays NwN2 for any length of time probably does also; as you might know, development was cut short for legal reasons so much of the good stuff that fleshes out the system is actually done with add-ons.

TonyK's also gives extended Behaviors for the PC and companions, but the code that explicitly handles targetting is a bit deeper, unfortunately.


ps. I can't directly answer your question because i totally puppet the toons.

Modifié par kevL, 06 mai 2013 - 11:42 .

[I_Raps]

Tony K's may very well aggravate your problem - depending on who you want the dwarf to attack. With the full TK , fighters (monks, too) will charge enemy spellcasters. That doesn't sound like it's the sort of thing you describe - engaging the opposing meatshields so you can get behind them and stab. I would still recommend the mod, though.

I would advise that you just play the game a while. You will get used to it. Much can be done with just positioning your characters. I.e. instead of clicking on a target, click on a spot next to your target and let nature take its course.

[Arkalezth]

I often run into this issue, and the only thing I can tell you is that Tony K's definitely doesn't fix it, so I'm afraid you'll have to live with it. Either adjust your strategies, if you can, or just accept that, sometimes, your companions (and even your PC) are going to do whatever the hell they want.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 07 mai 2013 - 01:46 .

[-Semper-]

personally that only happens to me when i'm playing with ai on. as soon as i gain a new companion i switch to their behaviour tab in the char screen and deactivate almost everything for everyone. this way with puppet mode off your party automatically follows the selected char around. if i want to walk solo (eg. scout with a rogue) i broadcast "stand your ground" and everyone halts. if i enter a fight i instantly switch to puppet mode and give the tactical orders.

clicking on the ground: the char moves there and does nothing until said otherwise.
clicking on a hostile: the char will engage melee till the target is dead switching to the next one if it's in melee range. if other enemies are too far away i've to order the char to move there.
selecting a spell or feat will only activate that spell and nothing more.

after the fight is over i'll leave puppet mode. sometimes switching puppet mode will freeze the party ai but broadcasting "follow me" will wake them up again. i really never got any problems with my party since installing the 2 addons and tony k's.

Modifié par -Semper-, 07 mai 2013 - 05:46 .

[Ansive]

Thanks guys, I'll try playing with AI off during fights using Strategy Mode. I think that would be similar to how Baldur's Gate and Dungeon Siege play like.

A pity, I would have liked to play it like NWN1 + Kotor

Is it possible to bind a key to puppet mode / AI off ?

Modifié par Ansive, 08 mai 2013 - 06:55 .

[Arkalezth]

I don't think so, at least in-game (maybe editing an ini file or something?), but I'm not completely sure. However, you can de/activate the AI by clicking on a button in the bottom left corner of the screen. It's not as convenient as a key, but it's something.

[manageri]

I'd suggest just getting used to having puppet mode on all the time. I seriously found the game like five times more fun that way after getting used to it. That way you feel like you're in charge of (almost) everything that happens which makes winning that much more satisfying, and eliminates the rage of having party members do something completely retarded and getting everyone, or at least themselves, killed. I'm so used to it now that I can't play these kinda games with any AI on. Just make sure you have 'select all' keybound somewhere good (I use X), as it makes stuff like having everyone attack one guy a lot faster.

[Ansive]

Too bad the pathfinding is pretty retarded with AI off, half the time I issue an attack one or two party members just sit there. I have to manually do everything, even move them into position.
So much for having everyone use a melee weapon.

Or the fact that when you select your entire party you can't switch to the focused character when you click on him.

But enough complaining...

[I_Raps]

Ansive wrote...

Or the fact that when you select your entire party you can't switch to the focused character when you click on him.

The Function keys are your friends.  F1 selects your PC (top character), F2 the next character going down the column, etc.  You can also click on the portrait.  If this de-selects the party, you can quickly re-select them with a key (I use "x" but I don't remember if that was the default or I changed it).


Don't take this to mean I advocate Puppet Mode, because I don't.  I don't like it at all.  Learning how the AI operates and setting up situations to take advantage is better in all ways;  game flow being the principle one.  Why does one buy a computer game if they want to play a boardgame?  There are times you must pause and issue a specific command, but they're the (rare) exception.

[edit]  OK.  In the interest of full disclosure, there is one exception that isn't rare at all and damn well requires 'select-all and move ' for the sake of your sanity - getting people through a doorway/other bottleneck.

Modifié par I_Raps, 18 mai 2013 - 11:10 .

[Tchos]

By default, "x" is the key you hold down to move the camera. I don't know the default for whole party selection, since I changed it to "=", to match the whole party selection key from the Infinity Engine games.

[manageri]

I_Raps wrote...

Don't take this to mean I advocate Puppet Mode, because I don't.  I don't like it at all.  Learning how the AI operates and setting up situations to take advantage is better in all ways;  game flow being the principle one.  Why does one buy a computer game if they want to play a boardgame?  There are times you must pause and issue a specific command, but they're the (rare) exception.

Flow is the ONLY reason not to use puppet mode, even if it is a big one for many people. I like slower action fine when it's engaging, though I understand a lotta people prefer the more action oriented RPG experience. The fact is though, the AI is just incredibly inferior to full manual control. I'd say letting the AI handle your companions gimps your party's efficiency by like 80%. That is why I can do stuff like beat MotB starting at level ~9 and ending at ~17, or finish the NWN2 version of icewind Dale at level 5 (which apparently goes to level 18 by default, according to the Vault description). Only once you start doing everything yourself you'll understand how severely the AI gimps your performance, and just how easy everyone has to make their campaigns because people are used to playing with idiotic, AI driven companions (not that that's the only reason but it's propably the biggest one).

[I_Raps]

manageri wrote...

. That is why I can do stuff like ... finish the NWN2 version of icewind Dale at level 5 (which apparently goes to level 18 by default, according to the Vault description).

I wasn't going to say anything, but I just can't stay off this.  The more I think about it, the more ridiculous it is.  So I'm going to have to call your bluff. 

First off, there are - numerous - separate events that grant more than 10,000 XP themselves, so I'm assuming you've turned off XP completely (which doesn't explain how you got to level 5, though.;  hmmm)

But anyway, please explain the miraculous strategy that lets a handful of lvl 4s (or less) survive walking into a temple full of greater undead who immediately start dropping fireballs, words of faith, and the like on them.  Or 17th level + wizard Malavon and his crew of umber hulks, iron golems, and horned devils.  Or the final confrontation which starts out with your opponent dropping a 16(?)d6 fireball on your butts - and goes downhill from there.

Remember - you're level 5 - so I better not hear the words "mind blank," "death ward," "energy immunity," or anything like that.

Modifié par I_Raps, 19 mai 2013 - 01:06 .

[manageri]

I_Raps wrote...

First off, there are - numerous - separate events that grant more than 10,000 XP themselves, so I'm assuming you've turned off XP completely (which doesn't explain how you got to level 5, though.;  hmmm)

Console. I set the XP module scale to minimum, and I take all the XP I've earned away every other time that I would gain a level. So, for example, when I reach level 3 I take away 2000xp, so it will be like I've just reached level 2 again. I then mark this in the journal so the next time I reach level 3 I will have "really" reached it and grab the level. This way I pretty much halve total XP gain, which is my starting point for most mods. If I get into a situation where it's become obvious, after a lot of dying, that I simply can't make it, I can always just console me a level up.

But anyway, please explain the miraculous strategy that lets a handful of lvl 4s (or less) survive walking into a temple full of greater undead who immediately start dropping fireballs, words of faith, and the like on them.

There were no words of faith being cast at me anywhere in the IWD campaign that I can recall. Even if there were, the fact enemies TRY to cast that spell doesn't mean it's going to finish casting. I've dealt with that spell in the OC with severely underleveled characters by zerging the cleric with knockdowns etc (it's amazing what a few potions can do to your kung-fu, especially haste). If you're talking about the temple with the mummies and the weird idol thing, those guys only cast flame strikes, which you can dodge by simply keeping the targets moving until the mummies stop casting them.

Or 17th level + wizard Malavon and his crew of umber hulks, iron golems, and horned devils.

The initial malavon clone (of a clone? or something) has no buffs up so he can easily be destroyed by nothing but ranged weapons. The (kinda) real Malavon is tougher so basically I 90% owned him with fire bombs. Same thing with the golems while my tank just kept them busy and in place, which is perfectly doable thanks to all the gear that low level chars can still use, meaning his AC was not far behind a proper level fighter's. The thingy that lets you cast Displacement endlessly is a massive help too.

Or the final confrontation which starts out with your opponent dropping a 16(?)d6 fireball on your butts - and goes downhill from there.

I can't remember what he threw at me exactly, but he certainly knocked several of my guys down a few times in the fight. Anyways, I handled it by having my best creatures from summoning scrolls tank the golems while my wizard threw a Bigby's Overpowered Hand of Something at him (again, scrolls ftw) which kept him in place for a long while. I then threw everything that did any damage at him, like magic missile wands, the divine damage portion of flame strikes, my rogue's sneak attacks (not that many of those landed on that AC but you can always roll 20) and the two acid bombs I had been saving just for him since I figured he will propably be immune to fire. One of the golems also died at the start, seemingly by walking over one of the dispel magic traps, but I'm not really sure.

Remember - you're level 5 - so I better not hear the words "mind blank," "death ward," "energy immunity," or anything like that.

Protection from evil serves as mind blank. There's also a helmet in the campaign with fear immunity, which is the only thing I can recall that I would want Mind Blank for in the campaign. Energy immunity would be handy but not remotely necessary, as nothing oneshotted me at any point, at least not with an Endure Elements up (which is insanely good for a 1st level spell; +20 hp against elemental damage using enemies). Also, I forgot to mention that I play on "very difficult", so incoming physical damage is doubled.

The game really isn't as hard as you think it is once you no longer have headless chickens for companions.

[I_Raps]

I'm sorry, I'm not buying it. Not for an instant. The minimum damage many of these guys' attacks hand out would wipe you out. Period. Let's take Yxonumei, for example. A level 16 Outsider that you meet merely halfway through the game. Who has Cloudkill. Your level 2?s survived this how?

I suspect a whole lot of cheese was served. For example, this vast hoard of scrolls you refer to - where? Console, right? I also expect a lot of "lure and assassinate," which is B&S, not D&D.  And reloads.  Many reloads.

"It was very confusing.  World kept stopping and starting over."  - Deekin

As for your experience method - sorry, the math doesn't work, unless there's more to it. E.g., at level 5 or less, any award of 5000 XP or more will give you a level. And there are a lot more than 10 of those, so you're going to level more than five times.

In any case, this methodology you're describing is not normal, typical, or even bother-with-able for 99% of players.

Bruce Lee could whip nunchuks around at mach 3.  After decades of practice.  With multiple takes.  Do not try this at home, though.

Modifié par I_Raps, 19 mai 2013 - 03:24 .

[manageri]

Cloudkill is easily handled by this incredible ninja-like tactic I came up with called running away (enemies rarely target aoe spells at a person, they use a location, so even the "target" can gtfo if you give the order fast).

Yxi does not have the damage necessary to oneshot even the (propably) level 4 tank that I had at the time, especially after a ray of enfeeblement from my necromancer. If Yxi can't oneshot her then she can survive tanking the ****.

No cheating of any kind, such as spawning in scrolls or any other items besides a bag of holding and the rod of preparation took place. If you think that bag was the key to my success then...

Trying to pull enemies one by one (which is what I assume you're talking about) isn't even possible in NWN2, and if it was I wouldn't want to do it. I even had a mod to fix that bull**** in Dragon Age where it was actually viable. The way I handle lots of enemies is bottlenecking them when possible, and if not, I impede their advance as much as I can with greases/entangles/whatever I have at the moment and try to pick some off with ranged attacks before they get close. Summoning some tanking assistance also helps (even crappy level 1-2 summons can at least delay a few enemies for a round or two, which is equivalent to casting a Hold spell on them or whatever).

As for the XP, I can't remember how exactly I change the xp in every mod since every mod offers a different challenge and thus requires a different amount of tweaking. I may have taken away more XP in IWD, which would not surprise me given the generous amount/quality of loot. Calling me a liar based on this is absurd, as quite obviously anyone can easily do anything to their XP with the console.

Here's screenies of my tank and wizard right before entering the temple in easthaven at the very end (not that they PROVE anything but if you're gonna be a conspiracy theorist about this then nothing short of watching over my shoulder while I play will):
http://i755.photobuc...13_081013-1.jpg
http://i755.photobuc...1913_081017.jpg

[I_Raps]

I don't need to call you a liar. You admitted to using the console to get past tough places (how many reloads before you give in?).  And you admit to using swarms of (max-level-3) summoning scrolls. And you admit to running circles to avoid incoming spells.

Sorry, but the fact that the AI doesn't use scrolls to send wave after wave of wolves and badgers to soak off the enemies' best spells and attacks while the characters run relays is not an indictment of the AI.  Nor, like I said, is it a technique I think a lot of people want to use.


Oh, by the way ---- you were level 4 tanking Yxonumei.  Half-way through the game.  And you ended up at 5.  How is that possible?

Modifié par I_Raps, 19 mai 2013 - 06:13 .

[I_Raps]

manageri wrote...

Yxi does not have the damage necessary to oneshot even the (propably) level 4 tank that I had at the time, especially after a ray of enfeeblement from my necromancer. If Yxi can't oneshot her then she can survive tanking the ****.

Yxi does 1d8 + 7, 1d8 +7, 1d8 +5, 1d8 + 5, and a 4d6 slam.  All at AB 19 or 17 (multiattack).  Probably a minimum of 40 damage per round.  That's two rounds to tank your tank - without crits.  That's not counting the archers and priests, who - if you didn't go into the room (to avoid the cloudkill)  - were free to riddle him uncontested.  There's only so many firebombs in the game, and you sure didn't have any Bigby scrolls yet.

Also, your puny wizard and his level 1 spell somehow beat her SR 24. 

How many tries?

Modifié par I_Raps, 19 mai 2013 - 07:11 .

[manageri]

I_Raps wrote...

manageri wrote...

Yxi does not have the damage necessary to oneshot even the (propably) level 4 tank that I had at the time, especially after a ray of enfeeblement from my necromancer. If Yxi can't oneshot her then she can survive tanking the ****.

Yxi does 1d8 + 7, 1d8 +7, 1d8 +5, 1d8 + 5, and a 4d6 slam.  All at AB 19 or 17 (multiattack).  Probably a minimum of 40 damage per round.  That's two rounds to tank your tank - without crits.  That's not counting the archers and priests, who - if you didn't go into the room (to avoid the cloudkill)  - were free to riddle him uncontested.  There's only so many firebombs in the game, and you sure didn't have any Bigby scrolls yet.

Also, your puny wizard and his level 1 spell somehow beat her SR 24.  (I guess you were at least level 4 after all).

How many tries?

How is her potential damage per round proof of anything when nothing remotely suggests she is definitely going to land every one of those hits?

Obviously I'm not gonna remember all the specifics but my tank was built entirely for that role, so even with Yxi's mighty AB it's not like she was guaranteed to hit, especially with all possible buffs up. I don't remember the AB-AC ratio so maybe I was incredibly lucky, I don't know. What I do know is this:

- Creatures' innate spell resistance is notoriously broken (if it comes from their hide thingy or something, I can't remember the technical specifics). You throw one spell at them and it stops working. It's hardly a mystery as to how I landed spells on her with that in mind.

- Here's a basic low level tactic that I regularly use, meaning I propably used it with her (if necessary): Shield other effectively doubles a character's hit points, AND the amount you can heal her (sorta). Normally if you cast heals on your tank with your cleric, you can only throw one heal a round that way. With Shield other though, you can cast (preferably from a scroll or wand to avoid interruption) a spell at your tank, and then have the cleric drink a healing potion too for basically double the healing per round. Suddenly my ~60 hp tank is a ~120 hp tank. groovy, ain't it. Now tell me again how I can't survive with that long enough for the trap-weakened boss to be finished off by my wizard spamming his magic missile wand and my rogue shooting three 2d6 sneak attack powered arrows at her per round, plus maybe a summoned dire wolf and other misc crap I may not remember.

- There's propably more tactics you've never considered or needed because everything is so easy when you play the game as intended. That does not mean everyone who says they can do something you don't think possible is either a liar or a cheater.

- As for Yxi's companions, again I don't remember specifics, but like 90% of the enemies in the game were unable to touch my (fully buffed) tank without rolling a 20. I don't remember them being a problem so it was propably true in that fight as well.

- How many tries? Can't remember but I don't recall being stuck on her or anything so propably nothing unreasonable. I think I'd remember if I had died like more than a dozen times.

[I_Raps]

manageri wrote...

- How many tries? Can't remember but I don't recall being stuck on her or anything so propably nothing unreasonable. I think I'd remember if I had died like more than a dozen times.

It wouldn't be notable if you had to reload, oh, ten times?

I rest my case.

[manageri]

I_Raps wrote...

I don't need to call you a liar. You admitted to using the console to get past tough places (how many reloads before you give in?).

Lol, I said I use the console to LOWER my XP, and IF I need to I will then give SOME of that XP back (which is very rare). In the end I'm still at way lower power than what the mod usually intends, so how the hell is this me "using the console to get by" as if I'm using dm_god or something?

Also, what does lying have to do with "cheating" with the console? You said you don't believe I finished IWD at level 5, which implies you think I'm lying.

And you admit to using swarms of (max-level-3) summoning scrolls.

I rarely summon a ton of those low level monsters in a fight because it's not very effective. Summoning one or two at the start where it's easier to make the enemy aggro them by placing the summons between you and them is great, but once those summons die there ain't a damn thing you can do to get an enemy away from your wizard and onto a summon, at least not by simply summoning that creature (you'd needa pop an invisibility potion or something which defeats your argument).

And you admit to running circles to avoid incoming spells.

Expecting the player to sit there and eat a fireball is ridicilous when nothing about moving the character away is beyond what the game intends you to be able to do. it's not like enemies stand still for you when you start casting either. If you, as the builder, are basing all the difficulty of an encounter on throwing AoE spells at the party in an area where they can easily be avoided, well then that's just bad design on your part (unless of course that's all you want them to have to do). If you want your monsters' spells to connect for sure then you better give those casters some single target spells, or limit the player's movement/places to move to, or something. That's just a fact of how the game works.

Sorry, but the fact that the AI doesn't use scrolls to send wave after wave of wolves and badgers to soak off the enemies' best spells and attacks while the characters run relays is not an indictment of the AI.  Nor, like I said, is it a technique I think a lot of people want to use.

You're basically just whining now that my tactics are too effective (in response to me arguing how manual control is much more effective, hilariously enough). Well boo-hoo. If the module gives me a Summon 2 wand (or anything else), then it's the module builder's responsibility to make sure that doesn't break the game. Not that it does, that's just your silly notion. Like I said, there is no way to even ensure you can make an enemy whoop all 25 (or whatever) amount of badgers you can summon outta that thing in a row anyway. The enemy will instantly seek a new target when the previous badger dies. Even if you could redirect aggro to them, you sure can't do that for every tough fight you'll encounter because you'll run out (at least unless the mod builder has made the horrible mistake of not limiting the number of individual spell scrolls stores sell to one, and IWD does have this limit).

Oh, by the way ---- you were level 4 tanking Yxonumei.  Half-way through the game.  And you ended up at 5.  How is that possible?

Again, seriously? By using the console, I know you can understand this. I could be level 20 after five minutes of play, and still finish at level 7. All I have to do is push a few buttons. It's magical like that. I don't understand why you keep asking me about this.

I_Raps wrote...

manageri wrote...

- How many
tries? Can't remember but I don't recall being stuck on her or anything
so propably nothing unreasonable. I think I'd remember if I had died
like more than a dozen times.

It wouldn't be notable if you had to reload, oh, ten times?

I rest my case.

You rest WHAT case? The case I play very differently from most people. And then what? That's not what I was ever arguing about, the only factual argument I'm interested in discussing is whether or not, like you claim, puppet mode isn't a gigantic improvement on the effectiveness of your party (which is hard to describe by just throwing adjectives around, which is why I gave an objective example like my IWD finishing level).

[I_Raps]

manageri wrote...

You rest WHAT case? The case I play very differently from most people. And then what? That's not what I was ever arguing about, the only factual argument I'm interested in discussing is whether or not, like you claim, puppet mode isn't a gigantic improvement on the effectiveness of your party (which is hard to describe by just throwing adjectives around, which is why I gave an objective example like my IWD finishing level).

This case:

manageri wrote...

Only once you start doing everything yourself you'll understand how severely the AI gimps your performance, and just how easy everyone has to make their campaigns because people are used to playing with idiotic, AI driven companions (not that that's the only reason but it's propably the biggest one).

The fact that your cheesefactory approach "only" dies off eleven out of twelve times doesn't mean the campaign is too easy;  and that the AI that actually tries to make moves ordinary humans would doesn't mean it's gimped.


Oh, and for the record - in case it's not obvious - I consider dying eleven out of twelve times and managing to sneak through once - multiple times throughout the campaign, apparently, since it's beneath your notice - to be not successful.

Modifié par I_Raps, 19 mai 2013 - 09:30 .

[manageri]

Fine, keep calling everything you haven't though of "cheese", even after I explain to you why just about nothing in my IWD campaign went the way you think it did. You thought I cheated and consoled myself extra scrolls, which I didn't. You thought I summoned 700 badgers into every fight, which I didn't (which wouldn't work the way you think it would anyway). You thought Yxunomei will surely own any level 4 character with nothing you can do about it, which she won't.

Your ignorance of tactics and game mechanics does not mean everyone who isn't as ignorant is either cheating or cheesing. The only thing I wanted to discuss here is how much superior puppet mode is to the AI, and I have provided plenty of support for that case, while you've done nothing but mistake your ignorance for my dishonesty, and then changed the subject to whether or not my play-style is pleasant enough, away from the actual subject of whether it's more efficient. Not that I blame you since anyone smarter than the NWN2 AI can see how obviously right I am, and it would be downright silly to expect people to admit they're ever wrong no matter how much evidence is thrown at them (especially on the internet).

Oh, and since you made such a big deal about dying for some reason, I actually beat the last boss on the first try. Go ahead and call that a lie too.