38 réponses à ce sujet

[I_Raps]

manageri wrote...

The only thing I wanted to discuss here is how much superior puppet mode is to the AI, and I have provided plenty of support for that case, while you've done nothing but mistake your ignorance for my dishonesty, and then changed the subject to whether or not my play-style is pleasant enough, away from the actual subject of whether it's more efficient.

Really?  You've said almost nothing that actually contrasts with the AI. The AI characters love to use Grease and Entangle, they'll happily engage with ranged weapons if they have them (in fact, they seem to prefer them), and of course they welcome any buffs you care to give them. They will certainly use any Bigby's scroll in preference to a level 3 spell. Just as they'll use any overpowered gear you want to give them. An AI rogue with a bow will take full advantage of her 2d6 sneak attack with just a little repositioning maybe all that's needed. And they won't walk into a known poison cloud that will kill them. Your "finishing" with level 5 characters seems to be more a testament to your stubbornness and willingness to reload over and over and over than any tactical superiority.


Now, there are a few differences we can deduce. The AI characters will not walk into a room full of enemy casters and run straight ahead to avoid the incoming fireballs (flamestrikes, whatever). The tank in the doorway will probably need to be directly controlled at least until engaged by folks he can't get past. They won't avoid the area a deadly spell is going off in just as if they know ahead of time it's going to happen.  They won't save the exactly perfect weapon they need for a boss just as if they know what his weaknesses are.   And as I said, they will not spend time dodging attacks rather than trying to do something positive. But these small differences - largely layable to foreknowledge - hardly measure up to gimpiness, certainly not 80%.

[manageri]

[quote]I_Raps wrote...

Really?  You've said almost nothing that actually contrasts with the AI. The AI characters love to use Grease and Entangle[/quote]

Yeah, they'll cast it at the feet of the enemy's current position, which isn't where they'll be when the spell lands if they're moving at you. Or, if it's an AoE spell they actually lock onto an enemy (though I can't remember for sure if allies ever do that), it'll land on that enemy right as it has reached your party so that spell will blow you up too. The very fact they decide to cast the spell is the whole problem anyway, as choosing what spell to cast when and where is of vital importance, and it's something the AI screws up almost without exception. I really don't want an entangle hitting the enemy right in front of my tank, giving the tank a friggin AC penalty while he's getting shot at etc.

[quote]they'll happily engage with ranged weapons if they have them (in fact, they seem to prefer them)[/quote]

Yeah, until something gets close, whether it's engaging them or not, at which point that wizard who's perfectly safe 10 feet away from the enemy that's bashing your tank will suddenly decide he's gonna go shank the orc. Brilliant.

[quote]and of course they welcome any buffs you care to give them.[/quote]

which is something you do manually so how the hell are you pointing that out supposedly in favor of the AI? Are you saying I should be happy my companions don't knockdown me when I try to mage armor them or something?

If by "giving" them buffs you refer to making them memorize spells or handing them potions, they will use both at the wrong moments 99% guaranteed. "Omg a dire rat - I better chug that potion of haste asap!"

[quote]They will certainly use any Bigby's scroll in preference to a level 3 spell.[/quote]

They use random nonsense and you know it. Did you see the inventory of my wizard in that screenshot? You think that outta the dozens of scrolls he had he would come remotely close to using as good a spell at as good a time at as good a target as you can manually? Everyone who's had a caster on AI for more than 5 minutes knows that's absolute horse****. Even the people who generally have AI on always say casters NEED some manual control, in fact many don't let the AI cast spells at all.

[quote]Just as they'll use any overpowered gear you want to give them.[/quote]

Again, am I supposed to be happy they don't throw their full plate off a cliff?

[quote]An AI rogue with a bow will take full advantage of her 2d6 sneak attack with just a little repositioning maybe all that's needed.[/quote]

What do you think REPOSITIONING is if not MANUAL CONTROL? Just like casters, a rogue is gimped completely without your guiding hand putting them in sneak attack positions and keeping them there.

Also, what'll actually happen when you put an AI rogue in sneak attack range is that often they'll decided, like I talked about already, that the enemy is too close and they'll switch to melee, even though neither that enemy or anyone else is attacking the rogue. What's that you're about to say, "you can switch weapon switching off with Tony K's"? YES, exactly, you can fix all the AI's messes by refusing it the permission to do anything and using MANUAL CONTROL.

[quote]And they won't walk into a known poison cloud that will kill them.[/quote]

They won't dodge it when it's incoming, which is about 900 times more effective than risking a save (if there even is one).

[quote]Your "finishing" with level 5 characters seems to be more a testament to your stubbornness and willingness to reload over and over and over than any tactical superiority.[/quote]

You're free to do the same with the AI on, then come and talk about how superior it is tactically. What you'll find is that your number of reloads will correlate pretty damn directly to how much control you exert over the group, which is the only point I've been making. My stubborness and number of reloads (which you have grossly exaggerated without actually knowing anything about them) are irrelevant.

[quote]Now, there are a few differences we can deduce.[/quote]

Yes, and these "few" differences are like the difference between a rubber bullet and a real one - it's easy to make them seem similar but the difference in their effects is colossal.

[quote]The AI characters will not walk into a room full of enemy casters and run straight ahead to avoid the incoming fireballs (flamestrikes, whatever).[/quote]

Yes, and having your party eat a Confusion or whatever can be a total game changer - at least when you're not running with a level ~15 party in a module doable by level 5s...

[quote]The tank in the doorway will probably need to be directly controlled at least until engaged by folks he can't get past.[/quote]

Which means the difference between 6-7 enemies attacking him versus 1-3. it also means the difference between those enemies having access to your non-tank party members. These facts combined make a gigantic difference in incoming damage (which cascades into other effects that should be obvious).

[quote]They won't avoid the area a deadly spell is going off in just as if they know ahead of time it's going to happen.[/quote]

Yeah, it's almost as if they could see some dude staring at them with friggin fire coming outta his hands, almost as if they're trying to cast a spell at them. Especially the casters in your own group who even identify the spell being cast. Super weird.

[quote]They won't save the exactly perfect weapon they need for a boss just as if they know what his weaknesses are.[/quote]

Yeah, they'll use your Summon 9 scrolls on some ****ing kobold. Bravo, AI.

[quote]And as I said, they will not spend time dodging attacks rather than trying to do something positive.[/quote]

Not counting avoiding damage as positive in a game where enough damage means you lose is about as ridicilous as religious chicks thinking they're still virgins because they only used the back door.

[quote]But these small differences - largely layable to foreknowledge - hardly measure up to gimpiness, certainly not 80%.[/quote]

Well then if you'd like to prove that, I look forward to your "hands off" run of IWD where you only control your main character and let the AI handle the others. I'll even let you be level 6 for the final boss, deal?

Or how about you just admit the AI is completely retarded and playing everything yourself is vastly superior in terms of combat efficiency, regardless of how much fun you or anyone else finds it.

[I_Raps]

LOL! I can only judge how you play by what you've said. You are the one who talked about all your buffs and equipment as if they were the mark of brilliance. And you're the one who said you wouldn't have noted or remembered if you only died a dozen times against Yxonumei. Oh, and you're the one who claims an Iron Golem killed himself by stepping on a Dispel Magic trap; my eyes can't stop rolling on that one.

As for my level 5 walkthrough - why on earth would I want to do that? I don't want to die a dozen times. I don't like dying a dozen times in a year - I certainly wouldn't put up with dying a dozen times per boss. And since you're such a master, I'll just concede I can't do better.  I'm perfectly willing to concede level 5s and less have to be damned lucky to survive most of those encounters;  in fact, that's kind of my point.  Anyone else who likes playing that way, well you've layed out the blueprint for them right here. I'll be interested to see if there are any takers. LOL and LOL again.

And as for your point by point "AI would misstep this" and "AI would stumble that" - that has not been my experience.  And I've played this game a lot.  Maybe my computer is just smarter than yours.  Or maybe I give the NPC's spells, weapons, etc. and put them in situations where they can succeed, instead of trying to force an unsuitable strategy on them.  For example - if I'm in kobold country, I keep the Bigby's Crushing Hand scrolls in the pack.

Modifié par I_Raps, 19 mai 2013 - 11:09 .

[manageri]

I_Raps wrote...

LOL! I can only judge how you play by what you've said. You are the one who talked about all your buffs and equipment as if they were the mark of brilliance.

Actually, I talked about them because you called me a ****ing liar, so I had to explain how exactly they help out.

And you're the one who said you wouldn't have noted or remembered if you only died a dozen times against Yxonumei.

Maybe, but again you're changing the subject, which is that you'd die infinite times if you tried that boss with a level 4 party and the AI handling most of your companions.

Oh, and you're the one who claims an Iron Golem killed himself by stepping on a Dispel Magic trap; my eyes can't stop rolling on that one.

All I know is he died near the trap and the trap disappeared. It's not at all impossible for such a thing to be scripted. I didn't say I KNOW that's what happened, just that it might have been how that encounter works, so once again you're doing nothing but showing off your ignorance, arrogance and closed-mindedness.

As for my level 5 walkthrough - why on earth would I want to do that?

For the reason i stated? If you want to prove the AI isn't completely idiotic, it's very simple - you accomplish something someone did with puppet mode, by letting the AI run free. Not complicated.

Of course you won't even get close to making it through with a bunch of max level 5s because the AI screws up everything it touches, and everyone knows it. Just look at what friggin thread we're discussing this in, the goddamn thing can't even keep your assigned attack target straight, so when you say "Hey Billy-bob, I'd sure appreciate it if you shot that nasty drow wizard guy at the back until he's dead", Billy-bob the Texas-AI ranger is going to listen to you for one round, after which he'll start shooting the nearest thing, no matter how retarded that plan is.

I don't want to die a dozen times. I don't like dying a dozen times in a year - I certainly wouldn't put up with dying a dozen times per boss. And since you're such a master, I'll just concede I can't do better.

Not the point. You can deflect attention away from the real subject by pretending this is about me talking about how awesome I am, and not about puppet mode vs AI, but it's kind of a weasely move.

I'm perfectly willing to concede level 5s and less have to be damned lucky to survive most of those encounters;  in fact, that's kind of my point.  Anyone else who likes playing that way, well you've layed out the blueprint for them right here. I'll be interested to see if there are any takers. LOL and LOL again.

They don't. My survival in almost every single encounter was 90% strategy+execution. When I died it was either because I did something dumb, or because I didn't use any potions or buffs for an encounter that required it, etc. But I'm sure you know better. I mean it sounds like you're really pushing the envelope with what's possible to do in this game tactically, with your less than 12 deaths a year playstyle, so just go ahead and call me a liar some more.

And as for your point by point "AI would misstep this" and "AI would stumble that" - that has not been my experience.

Lol, again, the irony of such a statement in this thread is just marvelous. And of course you haven't experienced the AI's countless idiotic moves as horrible mistakes - you play modules at the levels where the builders have taken the idiotic AI's clownish maneuvers into account, so they are not deciding the outcome of many fights for you.

And I've played this game a lot.  Maybe my computer is just smarter than yours.

Well if your computer somehow has an AI of it's own that re-wrote the AI for the game, then maybe. If not, wtf are you babbling about?

Or maybe I give the NPC's spells, weapons, etc. and put them in situations where they can succeed, instead of trying to force an unsuitable strategy on them.  For example - if I'm in kobold country, I keep the Bigby's Crushing Hand scrolls in the pack.

Yeah, you have to stop the AI from wasting them, which is exactly the kind of thing I've been talking about - You must MANUALLY CONTROL what toys you let the AI have access to. This really is a preposterous argument.

[-Semper-]

Ansive wrote...

Too bad the pathfinding is pretty retarded with AI off, half the time I issue an attack one or two party members just sit there. I have to manually do everything, even move them into position.

this only happens when the path to the enemy is blocked. if you select your party member and click on a target, the member should try to get into the equipped weapons range to initiate combat. this works in in and out of puppet mode.

afaik there could be a bug if you have multiple members of your party selected. to be on the safe route give your orders separately.

[Ansive]

Yeah, I'm getting used to clicking behind the target just to be able to make an encirclement.

Here's a random list of rants:
I had to put basic command on the bars of every party member. Follow, attack, hold, guard.

The way the party moves when multiple characters are selected is also pretty weird... I would expect the focused character to go to the spot I clicked, but no, they stop a few feet before the selected spot.

I had to change "left click and hold" from move to select... cause otherwise you cannot easily select part of the party. (so now I have to click a lot to move, or suffer the dreaded 'random degree' turn when using WASD)

If you have multiple characters selected you cannot select the focused player by clicking on him or pressing the F key. You need to either use a marquee selection or press the select all key once or twice.

I had to disable "take control of companion using left mouse click" since it's also bugged.
If you have more than one character selected and you issue them a move command, selecting another character using the left mouse will make the previously selected characters rally to him, as if you told them to move to that position... basically breaking even puppet mode.

Then the constantly reactivating modes... every time you select a character they will disable and enable the current mode, fine in most cases, but not for stealth which has a timer.


I have never played a game with so many 'features' and compromises in the control scheme... better one overly polished control scheme than 3 broken ones that take days to configure and get used to.

Anyway, I'm starting to get use to puppet mode, and I'm raging less often, so that's good.

To be honest, I'm curious how the people who played the game on launch day felt, I can only image... would have made some interesting youtube videos.

One thing is certain, my next character will be a brute that doesn't rely on the party members all that much.

Modifié par Ansive, 19 mai 2013 - 07:22 .

[manageri]

Ansive wrote...

Then the constantly reactivating modes... every time you select a character they will disable and enable the current mode, fine in most cases, but not for stealth which has a timer.

You can make characters stay stealthed by issueing the follow command. That works in puppet mode at least.

[-Semper-]

guess you're making your life way too complicated all by yourself. you don't need to select the whole party. select one member and let the rest follow in the chosen distance. if you need to scout ahead activate puppet mode, select your stealthy char and let the rest stand their ground.

after initiating combat just enter puppet mode, and give orders one by one. selecting and controlling multiple characters is weird, that's right. this is exactly why i never relied on it. character mode, especially moving around with wsad, is also subpar. i always got the feeling that the engine's constantly fighting with this mode. seems like direct control ain't implemented well, and was just stacked on top to compete with other "cinematic" experiences.

playing in strategy or exploration mode smoothed out a lot of the edges. plus nwn2's looking worlds better while zoomed out

Modifié par -Semper-, 19 mai 2013 - 09:03 .

[Tchos]

I'm not the person you're arguing with, of course, but I need to point out a couple of things regarding the AI.

manageri wrote...
Yeah, until something gets close, whether it's engaging them or not, at which point that wizard who's perfectly safe 10 feet away from the enemy that's bashing your tank will suddenly decide he's gonna go shank the orc. Brilliant.

Also, what'll actually happen when you put an AI rogue in sneak attack range is that often they'll decided, like I talked about already, that the enemy is too close and they'll switch to melee, even though neither that enemy or anyone else is attacking the rogue. What's that you're about to say, "you can switch weapon switching off with Tony K's"? YES, exactly, you can fix all the AI's messes by refusing it the permission to do anything and using MANUAL CONTROL.

TonyK's AI is not necessary to configure the AI not to do this, and I don't consider it to be an indictment of the AI that it can be (or must be) configured in this way.  These are settings that are available in the normal, fully-patched game.



This, combined with the also-visible "disable melee attacks" should be used for a ranged character.

manageri wrote...
If by "giving" them buffs you refer to making them memorize spells or handing them potions, they will use both at the wrong moments 99% guaranteed. "Omg a dire rat - I better chug that potion of haste asap!"

Yeah, they'll use your Summon 9 scrolls on some ****ing kobold. Bravo, AI.

This is another thing you can tell them not to do.  By default, they're in "overkill casting mode".  Put them in "scaled casting mode".

[manageri]

Tchos wrote...

TonyK's AI is not necessary to configure the AI not to do this, and I don't consider it to be an indictment of the AI that it can be (or must be) configured in this way.  These are settings that are available in the normal, fully-patched game.



This, combined with the also-visible "disable melee attacks" should be used for a ranged character.

Ok, let's review all the possibilities:

- Backing away when threatened and never switching to melee (which you might think of using for a wizard or somesuch squishy guy): The character will run around like an idiot into corners, AoO ranges, AoE spells, and away from the other party members who could actually help him with the nasty monster that's trying to rip his poor squishy face off. Fail.

- No backing away, switch to melee when deemed appropriate: I talked about this a bit already. Your characters will do idiotic crap like switching to melee when you purposefully placed them close enough for sneak attack/point blank shot bonuses/whatever. You don't even have to move the characters in such a position yourself, as the enemy might move close to the char on their own, and the char will then switch to melee even if that creature isn't targeting them. Some times you don't even have a choise about close range archery because the fight will take place in a tight mining shaft or whatever. Obvious fail.

- No swithcing to melee, no backing away:
This is closest puppet mode. You have to run or switch to melee yourself when you deem it appropriate. Of course unlike puppet mode, having the AI on means the character will attack whatever the hell it wants, often just the closest thing in my experience, so you can forget about any organized tactical elimination of a single, high-threat target. Of course this applies to the other settings as well, in addition to the above crap that's specific to them. Why aren't we just using puppet mode for this char again?

There simply is no setting that's remotely close to being smart all the time. Of course none of this AI dumb-asserry matters when playing most mods (certainly not in the official ones) because they're designed with it in mind. My only point is that if you actually do stuff yourself, you can overcome challenges the AI has no hope with whatsoever, and that you might have previously thought impossible.

manageri wrote...
If by "giving" them buffs you refer to making them memorize spells or handing them potions, they will use both at the wrong moments 99% guaranteed. "Omg a dire rat - I better chug that potion of haste asap!"

Yeah, they'll use your Summon 9 scrolls on some ****ing kobold. Bravo, AI.

This is another thing you can tell them not to do.  By default, they're in "overkill casting mode".  Put them in "scaled casting mode".

Yes, I'm sure that's a lot better (never actually done it since I always had spell casting disabled even when I played with AI on), but the thing is almost every spell is valuable in an actually difficult mod/fight and trusting the AI to handle any spellcasting is way beyond sub-par, at least when you're not in epic levels with spells coming outta your arse. I really don't think I even need to go into detail with that, I'm sure everyone has their personal horror stories about that.

Modifié par manageri, 19 mai 2013 - 10:41 .

[Arkalezth]

What Tchos said. You can also deactivate "item usage" so that companions don't use scrolls, wands, and so forth, adjust the following distance so that enemies are less likely to engage your weaker party members, etc.

The AI is far from perfect, but it's not THAT stupid with the right settings. Of course, you're always going to get better results if you control everything yourself, but if you don't like to micromanage, and you don't do weird stuff like cutting down your levels on purpose, the AI usually does the job just fine. And nothing's stopping you from manually performing a few actions when you feel like it. No need to put everyone in puppet mode in order to manually cast a spell here and there (you can do it if you want, but I've never felt the need for it). Just like you can learn to play in puppet mode, you can learn to play with the AI on.

Regarding IWD: I've been playing it a bit on multiplayer recently. We've been playing with a party of 3 most of the time, all the characters being player-controlled, but there were moments where my level 7-8 fighter was practically soloing those yuan-tis, without much effort and with all his buffs dispelled. Even if you hold back a few levels, it may not really be that hard with a full party. How big was your party, anyway?

I'm not interested in an argument, but there's another thing that I find kinda funny: On the one hand, you're holding back your levels and all that. Fine, but on the other hand, you're using things like that belt that lets you cast Displacement infinite times. On your whole party. That's not "helpful"; that's just plain broken. Frankly, I think you'd find a greater challenge if you gave yourself a couple more levels while refraining from using that kind of overpowered gear.

So OK, maybe you can complete the module at level 5 (don't take me wrong; I probably couldn't), but there's level 5 and "level 5". By the way, I played another time with a 4-member party and I finished at 13, not at 18.

[manageri]

My party had 4 guys - fighter, necromancer, cleric, rogue. I totally could do stuff like not use certain gear, but I really also don't want to over-think every single thing when I'm trying to enjoy playing the game. I prefer just setting up some ground rules before-hand, and then using everything at my disposal. Limiting XP is the simplest way I know to do that which works in every module.

As for the displacement belt btw, I only used it on the person wearing it, since that's closer to how I think it worked in the real IWD (and it was more than powerful enough like that). I do have some general self-imposed restrictions, like max 3 traps set per fight, I don't rest until I've cleared out an area, specialized wizards must use the extra spell slot for a spell of their school like in PnP, etc. And no lame exploits if I find some (can't think of any for the IWD campaign but I mean the kinda stuff like pulling one enemy at a time like you can do in Dragon Age).

[Tchos]

manageri wrote...
Ok, let's review all the possibilities:
...
There simply is no setting that's remotely close to being smart all the time.

I didn't say it was as smart as a human.  You used an example of a ranged character such as a wizard switching to melee to attack an enemy, and I posted to show how you can stop that from happening.  That's all.

[Ansive]

So, I'd like to apologize when I spoke about kotor having good controllable AI.
I've recently started another playthrough.

/rant
The AI is even worse than in this game...
Want to retreat? Good luck.
Stuck and cannot move? Reload the game.
Want your party to stop running like idiots into the fray? Good luck.
Want your party member to focus the same target? Good luck.
Want your party to stop using the wrong special attack? Good luck.
Want to use stealth in combat? Yeah right.

The only reason it doesn't bother too many people is because the game is very easy. Control your main and let the others do whatever, it's not like it actually matters.

Modifié par Ansive, 30 juin 2013 - 10:02 .