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[masster blaster]

You know what amazes me is how people can believe the Reaper are good and innocent. I mean come on. Yes they are being controled by the catalyst, but to what point. When Nazara told Shepard that each Reaper is independent , did it mean from choice alone on how they think, or by mear moral actions alone. If an Indoctrinated person becomes Indoctrinated, they must be willing to work with the Reapers, or at least submit that they are right. My point is that the Reapers alone choosed this path of destruction. They could have fought, they could have killed one another, instead they surrendered. They quit because of the power the Intellegence gave them. Power, immortality, bend others to your will, and share this power to those that deserve it.


If you look at the Prothean cycle the Reapers used the synthetics to kill the organics, not saving or protecting organics from synthetics, but harvesting, and butchering organics with the synthetics of that cycle. The Reapers didn't bother to make a Reaper out of the Protheans, no they instead enslaved the Protheans, as a final humiliation so that all know that the mighty organic races can fall. And if you actually think about it if the Reapers are harvesting all organic life, they are not just harvesting the old, and the adults, they are harvesting the children. Children. Why would you call something like a Reaper innocent, if it didnt fight back the intellegences control? We have seen Saren, TIM, and Kenson fight off the Reaper Indoctrination long enough to do what must be done. Yet a Reaper that has billions of minds that can surlly over power one synthetic mind can not break hold of the Indoctrination?


I know it seems like I am ranting, but its the truth. Though out this whole war with the Reapers, there is not one good thing that they have done to aid the galaxy. They have turned both the living and the dead into foot soldiers instead of preserving them. They have killed familys, brothers, sisters, sons, and daughters, moms and dads. They have destroyed planets that once held life, and yet they don't care. They allied with the Geth, only to destroy the Quarians, and once that was done, just like Javiks synthetics, the Reapers would use the Geth to help wipe out all organic life that must be harvested.


Moreover all those lives that Shepard has saved over the past ME games are helping the galaxy fight back against the Reapers. Toombs, Regger, Brenden, Emily Wong, and more all died trying to save lives. Each one trying to win not only the war, but freedom from the Reapers. Diana Allers's colony was destroyed by the Reapers. Not one survived the attack. The Reapers spared no one, and yet people defende the Reapers all because they are just being controled. Yes it's not like Harbinger was order to spend his time during arrival to Indoctrinate Shepard under the catalyst orders right? It's not like what ever Nazara said, was coming from the Intellegence right? Its not even like the Reapers dont talk about Shepard, nor talk to one another? Oh wait they did, and do. If they can form freedom of speech, make their own chocies, and feel emotion still like anger, and fear, then that means they are not fully controlled by the Intellegence and could fight back at any time.

And yes this means I support Destroy because for one I am doing what nbody has ever done before stand up to the intellegnece and turn down his offer of power, and unity. I will not refuse to pick and ending, nor let the galaxy to die. However I am willing to sacrifice all to end the Reapers. That includes EDI, and the Geth. We all had to make hard chocies through out ME 1- ME3, and this makes no diffrence what so over.

[PsyrenY]

masster blaster wrote...

If you look at the Prothean cycle the Reapers used the synthetics to kill the organics, not saving or protecting organics from synthetics, but harvesting, and butchering organics with the synthetics of that cycle. The Reapers didn't bother to make a Reaper out of the Protheans, no they instead enslaved the Protheans, as a final humiliation so that all know that the mighty organic races can fall.

I was under the impression that they made the Collectors because the Protheans were unsuitable to make a Reaper, not out of some desire to humiliate them.

masster blaster wrote...

Oh wait they did, and do. If they can form freedom of speech, make their own chocies, and feel emotion still like anger, and fear, then that means they are not fully controlled by the Intellegence and could fight back at any time.

I got no anger or fear from any Reaper. Contempt, sure, like they were talking to an ant instead of a person, but that's not really an emotion. I got no sense that they could break free from the Catalyst on their own.

[masster blaster]

Harbinger through out ME2 taunts Shepard , that are based on Harbingers own free will, than the catalyst own control over Harbinger.and at the end of ME2, and Arrival Harbinger is pissed off at Shepard, because Shepard has stopped the Reapers three times now.


Mordin pointed out that the Collectors more of a final insult to the Protheans to stop the reapers.. I don't know why they didn't become a Reaper, since that's what the catalyst should have been doing to all organic life, but that seems to be not the case, since the Protheans didn't become a Reaper of any kind.

Modifié par masster blaster, 07 mai 2013 - 04:11 .

[masster blaster]

Harbinger at the end of Arrival: .....Your leaders will beg to serve us....

Ya did the catalyst order Harbinger to say that, or was this Harbinger expressing anger,and bolsting. towards Shepard, and Harbinger is basically telling Shepard that when the Reapers come the leaders of the galaxy will flock over to them because they are here to harvest/ kill oraganic life. In other words Harbinger will make the world leaders of each race slaves to serve the Reapers either as Indoctrinated slaves, husk, or forced labor.

Modifié par masster blaster, 07 mai 2013 - 04:19 .

[PsyrenY]

masster blaster wrote...

Harbinger through out ME2 taunts Shepard , that are based on Harbingers own free will, than the catalyst own control over Harbinger.and at the end of ME2, and Arrival Harbinger is pissed off at Shepard, because Shepard has stopped the Reapers three times now.

What line did Harbinger say that made you think it was "pissed?" 
He considered Shepard inferior, insignificant even, but to him that was actually a factual statement - an observation, devoid of emotion.

masster blaster wrote...

Mordin pointed out that the Collectors more of a final insult to the Protheans to stop the reapers.. I don't know why they didn't become a Reaper, since that's what the catalyst should have been doing to all organic life, but that seems to be not the case, since the Protheans didn't become a Reaper of any kind.

Mordin is organic, and so put an organic's interpretation on their actions. It's illogical to think a machine would be trying to "insult" anyone. To the Reapers, making the Collectors was like finding an auxilliary use for their tools, with no more emotional investment behind it than a teenager would give to turning his broken iphone into an mp3 player.

masster blaster wrote...

.....Your leaders will beg to serve us....

I don't see any anger in that line. It's a true statement of what an indoctrinated person would do.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 07 mai 2013 - 04:19 .

[masster blaster]

Yet there was nothing left of any signs of Prothean DNA at all in the collectors. Genetically modified to the core, and you do remember javik was hunted down by his own crew by the Reapers controlling his indoctrinated crew. Mordin may be an organic, but what does that mean. Computers make mistakes, as do human beings, yet a synthetic can't?

Yet I forget that Reapers are hybrids. Both organic, and machine alike. Yet even they a flawed.

Harbinger words towards Shepard are hallow. Shepard has struck a a blow against the Reapers plans/ the intellegences plans. Its like how legion acts when you try to kill his people. He's angry. Sure he doesn't have emotions so to speak, yet what he felt was anger, and betrayal.

Modifié par masster blaster, 07 mai 2013 - 04:31 .

[KaiserShep]

I'd say the reapers were gushing with hubris. I mean why else would Harby constantly tell me that his attacks will tear me apart?

[PsyrenY]

masster blaster wrote...

Yet there was nothing left of any signs of Prothean DNA at all in the collectors. Genetically modified to the core, and you do remember javik was hunted down by his own crew by the Reapers controlling his indoctrinated crew. Mordin may be an organic, but what does that mean. Computers make mistakes, as do human beings, yet a synthetic can't?

All it means is that you are attaching emotions to the Reapers' actions that aren't really there. Fear, insults and anger are organic concepts.

You are making some factual statements - yes, the Reapers repurposed the Protheans down to their DNA, yes Harbinger says some very unflattering things to Shepard. But your reasons why the Reapers do these things are incorrect, and therefore your conclusion that the Reapers can somehow break free from the Catalyst is also incorrect. They have been enslaved for hundreds of millions of years - they are as locked in as it is possible to be. Only the Crucible can break that hold. It has nothing to do with feeling emotions or wanting to be enslaved.

KaiserShep wrote...
I'd say the reapers were gushing with hubris. I mean why else would Harby constantly tell me that his attacks will tear me apart?

Because they would? :?Most people do get torn apart if shot by a Reaper.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 07 mai 2013 - 04:36 .

[Wolfva2]

I got the feeling the Reapers don't feel anything. Like any other computer program. Heck, they're basically sentient Rhoombas. They were programmed to harvest advanced races, that's what they were doing. Just tools.

[KaiserShep]

C'mon he only needs to say it once. Lol

[teh DRUMPf!!]

You can't really gauge the personality of someone under some sort of mind-control.


It would be like calling Dr. Kenson or Benezia traitorous bietches. Unfair, what you saw was not really "them."

[Deathsaurer]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

You can't really gauge the personality of someone under some sort of mind-control.

You can't really call this mind control though. They're robots, albiet usually with a CPU made of organic goo, simply being what they were programmed to be. They have no morals because they were never progammed to have them. The taunts seem quite obviously psycholocial warfare in retrospect.

[Ieldra]

Find my reasoning for why the Reapers are as much victims of the cycle as the species they were made of in this thread.

Any Reaper is not more or less "good or innocent" than the species it was made of. Harbinger was made from the leviathans.... However, what they are not is responsible for the cycle. See the linked thread for more details.

[Han Shot First]

They're indoctrinated.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Deathsaurer wrote...

You can't really call this mind control though. They're robots, albiet usually with a CPU made of organic goo, simply being what they were programmed to be. They have no morals because they were never progammed to have them. The taunts seem quite obviously psycholocial warfare in retrospect.

It's not programming. It's control. There's a difference.

All geth have the same programming, but the ones at Project Overlord act differently from normal (uncontrolled) geth.

[Red Dust]

They're misunderstood because they are beyond our comprehension. Hurhurhur.

[Goneaviking]

Hey back off man, they had a rough childhood.

[remydat]

The Reapers are designed not only to kill but to instill fear and terror in organics so that organics come to believe resitance is futile. It's like how in WWII, the various forces would broadcast propaganda to try and demoralize the enemy. The Reapers trash talk is just that. The aim is to demoralize the enemy.

It is entirely possible that without mind control, Harby is still an arrogant douchebag but they are controlled. I am not even sure they even realize the fact they are being controlled or have knowledge of the Catalyst.

[AlexMBrennan]

I mean come on. Yes they are being controled by the catalyst, but to what point

That is the crucial question which remains unanswered - we simply don't know how Reapers work - they could be remote controlled dumb tools (with Catalyst doing a bit of acting to make them appear to be individually sentient like Sovereign's speech), they could be individually sentient beings who willingly go along with it (because they are AIs programmed that way) or maybe they are individually sentient ethical beings who wouldn't hurt a fly if they weren't mindcontrolled by catalyst.

Granted, the latter seems a bit unlikely - if you need a tool for a dirty job then you don't program that tool to object to the task on moral grounds... but maybe that's the only way to make AIs in mass effect? We just don't know because we don't have all the relevant information. Even Seival casting them as innocent victims oppressed by Catalyst and murdered by Shepard is technically consistent with what (little) we know.

[Wynterdust]

Aside from killing everyone they aren't too bad.
Harbinger seems like a nice guy. I mean, he stops trying to kill you so you can say goodbye to your friends before going back to trying to kill you.

[The Night Mammoth]

Stockholm syndrome, submissive personality, blind optimism, cuttlefish fetish, I dunno.

[masster blaster]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

I mean come on. Yes they are being controled by the catalyst, but to what point

That is the crucial question which remains unanswered - we simply don't know how Reapers work - they could be remote controlled dumb tools (with Catalyst doing a bit of acting to make them appear to be individually sentient like Sovereign's speech), they could be individually sentient beings who willingly go along with it (because they are AIs programmed that way) or maybe they are individually sentient ethical beings who wouldn't hurt a fly if they weren't mindcontrolled by catalyst.

Granted, the latter seems a bit unlikely - if you need a tool for a dirty job then you don't program that tool to object to the task on moral grounds... but maybe that's the only way to make AIs in mass effect? We just don't know because we don't have all the relevant information. Even Seival casting them as innocent victims oppressed by Catalyst and murdered by Shepard is technically consistent with what (little) we know.

1. They are hybrides. Organic minds made from millions of that one race, and a synthetic body. How can the intellegence control an organic mind without fusing it's self into Harbinger?

2. If they are just programmed to harvest, then what point of that programming do they stop. I mean they use synthetics to kill organics, and that goes against the catalyst wishes to protect from. Not only that the catalyst himself is a synthetic, so shouldn't he be protecting the organics from himselff?

3. Just because they are programmed to do something, doesn't mean they can over come that programming, or find ways to go around that programming. Evoultion is a big thing in the ME world, and I am sure Harbinger out of all the Reapers, can challenge the intellegence, unless the intellegnece fused it's self with Harbinger, but that seems highly unlikely.

4. The Reapers can comunicate with each other, they talk about Shepard, they kill organics and either make them husk, or Genetic material, and yes they show signs of emotions. Although yes they are half synthetic, that doesn't mean their organic minds don't sometimes show they have emotions at all. If we were just fighting Reaper AI's this whole time, then Nazara, and Harbinger would'nt be as they are. Also a thing that I like to point out, if you Refuse the catalyst, then why does it get angry? Synthetics don't show signs of emotions, but why did it get angry? Yes Shepard refused to use the crucible, but it got angry did it not.

[Auld Wulf]

They're being mind controlled by the Catalyst as it itself tells you, what they believe is what it wants them to believe. It has absolute control over them. To say anything else when the Catalyst tells you this is a 'canon isn't canon' argument, and those are only proffered up to the community by the less bright of us. Canon most certainly is canon. And since we see that they are benign and benevolent creatures in Synthesis, we can also say that they are according to canon, otherwise their actions once freed from slavery would be very different.

Canon is canon. Canon tells us that the Reapers are merely slaves to the will of the Catalyst, and when freed from the will of the Catalyst they choose to aid the galactic community and help out however they can. You really can't say any other. And it's not that the Reapers are misunderstood, but rather they are misrepresented by those whom lack understanding. You lack understanding of the lore, OP, and thus you misrepresent them.

[Auld Wulf]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

It's not programming. It's control. There's a difference.

All geth have the same programming, but the ones at Project Overlord act differently from normal (uncontrolled) geth.

Exactly. It's a shame so few understand that.

- The Leviathans believed that absolute control was the way to galactic stability.
- The Catalyst was programmed to believe that absolute control was the way to galactic stability.
- The Reapers were programmed to follow the doctrine of the Catalyst -- to do what it does.

It's a waterfall effect leading down from the Leviathans and affecting everything they touch. In the Universe of the Leviathans, you are either controller, or controlled. The Reapers are part of that hierarchy of control set forth by the Leviathans. It's control created by the Catalyst, who just wants to please his Leviathan creators. It saddens me that people have to be so thuggish and anti-intellectual about this, since the Reapers aren't allowed to be anything other than Space Invaders.

But the story where the Reapers are faceless, plotless Space Invaders is tremendously boring. Thus, those people who actually want something that one-dimensional are boring. No imagination. None.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 07 mai 2013 - 12:30 .

[masster blaster]

No I don't lack understanding of the lore, as do many people. I only want to know why people think the Reapers I missunderstood.

Also in what way of freedom do you mean. Forced to live their lives as the monster that as killed billions. If they are free wouldn't waves of emotions from those millions of mines in each Reaper, be over comed by grief, and regreat alone? Yes in anyones case, and also is freedom what you have by living, or is it by death alone? I say either one.