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[MassivelyEffective0730]

Argolas wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The geth and quarians have been at war with each other the entire time. This is made abundantly clear by the Geth VI.

Which Legion completely contradicts. You're using the existence of the VI to clarify an argument that is really not much more than a cynical perspective. There is no war or conflict between the Geth and the Quarians. The Geth aren't interested in war. They're interested in creating a future for themselves. They are more than willing to accept the Quarians back to Rannoch. They're even willing to use hardware to assist with working and rebuilding. All they want is to not be killed or destroyed outright and treated with respect. Honestly it seems like you're going out of your way to antagonize the Geth.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Legion steps up the moment the Heretics start threatening the Geth as well while they were accepted before. Other than that, Legion is no longer part of the consensus in ME3, the upgrades made it an individual. The consensus is hostile against anything that threatens their plans and that is anything that enters Geth space. Legion is an exception, first because of pragmatic reasons, then because of his unique state as an independant individual.

Source?

[o Ventus]

Argolas wrote...

I don't think it's a coincidence that Legion steps up the moment the Heretics start threatening the Geth as well while they were accepted before. Other than that, Legion is no longer part of the consensus in ME3, the upgrades made it an individual. The consensus is hostile against anything that threatens their plans and that is anything that enters Geth space. Legion is an exception, first because of pragmatic reasons, then because of his unique state as an independant individual.

And the heretics were attempting to mass convert the mainstream geth to the heretic point of thinking with a virus.

In ether case, the well being of the geth as a whole was at stake. Legion in ME2 makes it perfectly clear (aboard the flotilla, no less) that the geth are open to peace talks.

Modifié par o Ventus, 11 mai 2013 - 03:13 .

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The geth and quarians have been at war with each other the entire time. This is made abundantly clear by the Geth VI.

Which Legion completely contradicts. You're using the existence of the VI to clarify an argument that is really not much more than a cynical perspective. There is no war or conflict between the Geth and the Quarians. The Geth aren't interested in war. They're interested in creating a future for themselves. They are more than willing to accept the Quarians back to Rannoch. They're even willing to use hardware to assist with working and rebuilding. All they want is to not be killed or destroyed outright and treated with respect. Honestly it seems like you're going out of your way to antagonize the Geth.

.  And you are going out of your way to antagonize the quarians.  only Legion is willing to entertain peace because of what he has experienced.  The mainstream geth do not seem to share his views.  They are compleyely fine with extermminating people who pose no threat to them. You seem to be confusibg Legion as representative oc the entire geth consensus.  He has become quite different from the regular geth as shown if Legion dies on tge SM.

[o Ventus]

Steelcan wrote...

And you are going out of your way to antagonize the quarians.  only Legion is willing to entertain peace because of what he has experienced.  The mainstream geth do not seem to share his views.  They are compleyely fine with extermminating people who pose no threat to them. You seem to be confusibg Legion as representative oc the entire geth consensus.  He has become quite different from the regular geth as shown if Legion dies on tge SM.

Legion uploads himself to the consensus at least once in ME2. It isn't like he hoards every he learns for himself.

[Steelcan]

o Ventus wrote...

Argolas wrote...

I don't think it's a coincidence that Legion steps up the moment the Heretics start threatening the Geth as well while they were accepted before. Other than that, Legion is no longer part of the consensus in ME3, the upgrades made it an individual. The consensus is hostile against anything that threatens their plans and that is anything that enters Geth space. Legion is an exception, first because of pragmatic reasons, then because of his unique state as an independant individual.

And the heretics were attempting to mass convert the mainstream geth to the heretic point of thinking with a virus.

In ether case, the well being of the geth as a whole was at stake. Legion in ME2 makes it perfectly clear (aboard the flotilla, no less) that the geth are open to peace talks.

.  Legion is, the rest of the geth are not as shown by the Geth VI.

[Steelcan]

o Ventus wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

And you are going out of your way to antagonize the quarians.  only Legion is willing to entertain peace because of what he has experienced.  The mainstream geth do not seem to share his views.  They are compleyely fine with extermminating people who pose no threat to them. You seem to be confusibg Legion as representative oc the entire geth consensus.  He has become quite different from the regular geth as shown if Legion dies on tge SM.

Legion uploads himself to the consensus at least once in ME2. It isn't like he hoards every he learns for himself.

he is an independant platform

[o Ventus]

Steelcan wrote...

 Legion is, the rest of the geth are not as shown by the Geth VI.

Which doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Unless Legion is functionally retarded, there is literally zero reason for him to say that he alone is open to peace talks.
There's no way the geth VI could be hostile because the quarians killed millions of geth in their Dyson sphere.

Nope, they were always hostile, despite what Legion says (even though the geth that make up Legion COME FROM the consensus, and Legion uploads TO the consensus in ME2).

Modifié par o Ventus, 11 mai 2013 - 03:20 .

[o Ventus]

Steelcan wrote...

he is an independant platform

And? That only means that he is capable of working by himself due to the increased number of programs in his platform.

Modifié par o Ventus, 11 mai 2013 - 03:21 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...
 And you are going out of your way to antagonize the quarians.  only Legion is willing to entertain peace because of what he has experienced.  The mainstream geth do not seem to share his views.  They are compleyely fine with extermminating people who pose no threat to them. You seem to be confusibg Legion as representative oc the entire geth consensus.  He has become quite different from the regular geth as shown if Legion dies on tge SM.

No, I'm telling you that some very stupid choices have come out of the current admiralty of the Quarians. They really made some terrible decisions that nearly damned themselves, the Geth, and possibly the entire war effort.

And can you prove that the Geth are willing to exterminate a race? 300 years of history state otherwise. I'm not going to pretend that Legion is representative of the Geth. But I'm also going to state that the entirety of the Geth are aware of his perspective and experiences with organics. You're forgetting that little tidbit about the Geth. With Legion, the Geth are now aware of the capacity for organics to make a voice for peace and cooperation.

[Steelcan]

o Ventus wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

 Legion is, the rest of the geth are not as shown by the Geth VI.

Which doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Unless Legion is functionally retarded, there is literally zero reason for him to say that he alone is open to peace talks.
There's no way the geth VI could be hostile because the quarians killed millions of geth in their Dyson sphere.

Nope, they were always hostile, despite what Legion says (even though the geth that make up Legion COME FROM the consensus, and Legion uploads TO the consensus in ME2).

.  Just because he is uploaded to the consensus does not mean the other geth instantly agree with him about the quarians.  The geth have always been hostile to anyone who comes near them, not even a radio hail asking them to leave before they are killed.

[Steelcan]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
 And you are going out of your way to antagonize the quarians.  only Legion is willing to entertain peace because of what he has experienced.  The mainstream geth do not seem to share his views.  They are compleyely fine with extermminating people who pose no threat to them. You seem to be confusibg Legion as representative oc the entire geth consensus.  He has become quite different from the regular geth as shown if Legion dies on tge SM.

No, I'm telling you that some very stupid choices have come out of the current admiralty of the Quarians. They really made some terrible decisions that nearly damned themselves, the Geth, and possibly the entire war effort.

And can you prove that the Geth are willing to exterminate a race? 300 years of history state otherwise. I'm not going to pretend that Legion is representative of the Geth. But I'm also going to state that the entirety of the Geth are aware of his perspective and experiences with organics. You're forgetting that little tidbit about the Geth. With Legion, the Geth are now aware of the capacity for organics to make a voice for peace and cooperation.

. Their willingness to kill billions of people does not lend itsrlf to their poryrayal.  If they seriously wanted peace why did they not persue it?

[Argolas]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Argolas wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The geth and quarians have been at war with each other the entire time. This is made abundantly clear by the Geth VI.

Which Legion completely contradicts. You're using the existence of the VI to clarify an argument that is really not much more than a cynical perspective. There is no war or conflict between the Geth and the Quarians. The Geth aren't interested in war. They're interested in creating a future for themselves. They are more than willing to accept the Quarians back to Rannoch. They're even willing to use hardware to assist with working and rebuilding. All they want is to not be killed or destroyed outright and treated with respect. Honestly it seems like you're going out of your way to antagonize the Geth.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Legion steps up the moment the Heretics start threatening the Geth as well while they were accepted before. Other than that, Legion is no longer part of the consensus in ME3, the upgrades made it an individual. The consensus is hostile against anything that threatens their plans and that is anything that enters Geth space. Legion is an exception, first because of pragmatic reasons, then because of his unique state as an independant individual.

Source?

Source for what exactly?

Legion outright says that the heretics where tolerated- until they threatened the Geth. 

Lore says that the Geth attack any foreign ship that enters Geth space.

Legion was sent out to get Shepard's help against an enemy the Geth couldn't fight alone. If the Geth had judged that they could deal with it themselves they wouldn't have made Legion- see first point.

In ME3, all Geth are hostile except Legion. That proves that it is not part of the consensus. It later confirms that by referring to itself as "I" instead of "we".

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
 And you are going out of your way to antagonize the quarians.  only Legion is willing to entertain peace because of what he has experienced.  The mainstream geth do not seem to share his views.  They are compleyely fine with extermminating people who pose no threat to them. You seem to be confusibg Legion as representative oc the entire geth consensus.  He has become quite different from the regular geth as shown if Legion dies on tge SM.

No, I'm telling you that some very stupid choices have come out of the current admiralty of the Quarians. They really made some terrible decisions that nearly damned themselves, the Geth, and possibly the entire war effort.

And can you prove that the Geth are willing to exterminate a race? 300 years of history state otherwise. I'm not going to pretend that Legion is representative of the Geth. But I'm also going to state that the entirety of the Geth are aware of his perspective and experiences with organics. You're forgetting that little tidbit about the Geth. With Legion, the Geth are now aware of the capacity for organics to make a voice for peace and cooperation.

. Their willingness to kill billions of people does not lend itsrlf to their poryrayal.  If they seriously wanted peace why did they not persue it?

That's a fallacy. You're stating that because the Geth didn't pursue peace, they must not be open to it. Did you happen to think that perhaps the Geth don't believe that any proposal for peace will be accepted? The Geth are in a very disadvantageous position. One they did put themselves in perhaps.

As for their willingness to kill billions, it was that or get killed by the Quarians. I don't approve of their decision or nature, but from a pure perspective, if it's kill billions or have your whole race killed, you're going to go with the former. And the Geth also willfully abandoned pursuit of the Quarians after they fled.

[Steelcan]

Out of uncertainty not mercy

[o Ventus]

Legion onl says "I" at the very, very end of the mission arc, when it disperses individuality to the geth.

That isn't even remotely indicative of anything.

The the are only hostile in ME3 Bcause they are under Reaper control.

Legion wasn't constructed to get Shepard's help on anything. He was built to interact with and study organics. That's also why he can move the flaps on his head like eyebrows.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Argolas wrote...
In ME3, all Geth are hostile except Legion. That proves that it is not part of the consensus. It later confirms that by referring to itself as "I" instead of "we".

In ME3, the consensus is also under Reaper control. And there is nothing to say that he is separated from the consensus. He can still access the consensus at any time. As I said, the Geth are under the control of the Reapers. The actual consensus is aware of Legion's experiences and perspective. This is supported by lore. The Geth are in contact with the Consensus provided that there is an FTL communications capability. Anytime Legion wishes to access the Consensus, he can. So the Geth are definitely aware of Legions perspective. We can unfortunately never know what the Geth's real idea was. Regardless of perspective, the Quarians attacked, thus forcing the Geth to embrace the Reapers to survive (after a great blow to their intelligence has been lost due to attack by the Quarians on their dyson shere.)

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

Out of uncertainty not mercy

There was never any issue on mercy. But regardless of that or not, would you be capable of understanding the potential consequences of destroying an entire race? The Geth certainly weren't.

[Argolas]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Argolas wrote...
In ME3, all Geth are hostile except Legion. That proves that it is not part of the consensus. It later confirms that by referring to itself as "I" instead of "we".

In ME3, the consensus is also under Reaper control. And there is nothing to say that he is separated from the consensus. He can still access the consensus at any time. As I said, the Geth are under the control of the Reapers. The actual consensus is aware of Legion's experiences and perspective. This is supported by lore. The Geth are in contact with the Consensus provided that there is an FTL communications capability. Anytime Legion wishes to access the Consensus, he can. So the Geth are definitely aware of Legions perspective. We can unfortunately never know what the Geth's real idea was. Regardless of perspective, the Quarians attacked, thus forcing the Geth to embrace the Reapers to survive (after a great blow to their intelligence has been lost due to attack by the Quarians on their dyson shere.)

My point was that Legion does not act according to the consensus in ME3. It's another matter if it can acess it.

The "forced to embrace the reapers" is BS. We fought Saren for the very same reason. Allying with the Reapers is stupid, no less. The Reapers will exterminate all life, including the Geth, that's proven by the fact that all synthetic lfie from previous cycles was wiped out as well although they may have helped the Reapers. It's divide and conquer tactics and falling for that is no less than stupid.

Also, the Geth had it coming. The Quarians need Rannoch and it's still their homeworld, they have every right to reclaim it and the Geth should have anticipated that. Building their Dyson Sphere on Rannoch was a move just as stupid as allying with the Reapers.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Argolas wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Argolas wrote...
In ME3, all Geth are hostile except Legion. That proves that it is not part of the consensus. It later confirms that by referring to itself as "I" instead of "we".

In ME3, the consensus is also under Reaper control. And there is nothing to say that he is separated from the consensus. He can still access the consensus at any time. As I said, the Geth are under the control of the Reapers. The actual consensus is aware of Legion's experiences and perspective. This is supported by lore. The Geth are in contact with the Consensus provided that there is an FTL communications capability. Anytime Legion wishes to access the Consensus, he can. So the Geth are definitely aware of Legions perspective. We can unfortunately never know what the Geth's real idea was. Regardless of perspective, the Quarians attacked, thus forcing the Geth to embrace the Reapers to survive (after a great blow to their intelligence has been lost due to attack by the Quarians on their dyson shere.)

My point was that Legion does not act according to the consensus in ME3. It's another matter if it can acess it.

The "forced to embrace the reapers" is BS. We fought Saren for the very same reason. Allying with the Reapers is stupid, no less. The Reapers will exterminate all life, including the Geth, that's proven by the fact that all synthetic lfie from previous cycles was wiped out as well although they may have helped the Reapers. It's divide and conquer tactics and falling for that is no less than stupid.

Also, the Geth had it coming. The Quarians need Rannoch and it's still their homeworld, they have every right to reclaim it and the Geth should have anticipated that. Building their Dyson Sphere on Rannoch was a move just as stupid as allying with the Reapers.

No, he doesn't act accordingly to the consensus in ME3. As I said, the consensus is under Reaper control.

I'm going to say that the Geth faced extermination from the Quarians and the Reapers. The Quarians are a more immediate threat to them, but regardless, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. The Reapers offered a way out. Yes they're going to kill them all the same. 

Which leads me to the next point. Why do the Geth have to submit themselves to destruction? 

You're saying that they have it coming. I disagree completely. It was entirely possible for the Quarians and Geth to achieve peace independently. As I stated, the Quarians are at fault for this. Legion states that siding with the Reapers would have been unnecessary had the Quarians not attacked. 

The point is that the Geth were willing to allow the Quarians to return peacefully. I don't agree to the entitlement or claim the Quarians have. Especially since it was their own fault the entire conflict originated.

[Argolas]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

No, he doesn't act accordingly to the consensus in ME3. As I said, the consensus is under Reaper control.

I'm going to say that the Geth faced extermination from the Quarians and the Reapers. The Quarians are a more immediate threat to them, but regardless, they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. The Reapers offered a way out. Yes they're going to kill them all the same. 

Which leads me to the next point. Why do the Geth have to submit themselves to destruction? 

You're saying that they have it coming. I disagree completely. It was entirely possible for the Quarians and Geth to achieve peace independently. As I stated, the Quarians are at fault for this. Legion states that siding with the Reapers would have been unnecessary had the Quarians not attacked. 

The point is that the Geth were willing to allow the Quarians to return peacefully. I don't agree to the entitlement or claim the Quarians have. Especially since it was their own fault the entire conflict originated.

Yes, the first one was a neutral statement, that's all I was saying. Glad we agree so far

I think the critical point is just Rannoch. The Quarians need that planet and they need it desperately, with the Reapers coming they now need it more than ever. You can't sit on something that someone else desperately needs and then play innocent because all you wanted is to be left alone. You need to expect others to come back for what you took from them.

Even if the Geth were ready to talk, they never signaled such before. Killing everyone who enters Geth space is a clear signal. Remember Haestrom? Those Quarians didn't threaten any Geth, there was nothing but ruins where they landed, yet the Geth patrol that noticed them immediatly went into termination mode just because it happened in Geth space. Hell, there even once was a pretty brutal warning of what happens when you enter Geth space. Of course that was the heretics, but how would the Quarians know? Only Tali does, and she tried to stop the attack and it was in vain. After the brutal genocide the Geth commited in the Morning War, do you blame the Quarians for considering them monsters, even if they aren't? (And I believe they aren't, I think the Morning War was a terrible misunderstanding)

The alliance with the Reapers, again, shows that Geth care about Geth and nothing else. Concentrating their population on Rannoch made them a target for desperate Quarians and they paid the price. Then, their choice was to die or to die and take the whole galaxy with them. I don't think they should submit themselves to extinction, I think they should not have provoked the Quarians with what they needed most. Even after it had went so far, the alliance with the reapers still does nothing but to prove the points of idiots like Gerrel and especially Xen.

The Geth just aren't better than this.

Modifié par Argolas, 11 mai 2013 - 04:38 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
 And you are going out of your way to antagonize the quarians.  only Legion is willing to entertain peace because of what he has experienced.  The mainstream geth do not seem to share his views.  They are compleyely fine with extermminating people who pose no threat to them. You seem to be confusibg Legion as representative oc the entire geth consensus.  He has become quite different from the regular geth as shown if Legion dies on tge SM.

No, I'm telling you that some very stupid choices have come out of the current admiralty of the Quarians. They really made some terrible decisions that nearly damned themselves, the Geth, and possibly the entire war effort.

And can you prove that the Geth are willing to exterminate a race? 300 years of history state otherwise. I'm not going to pretend that Legion is representative of the Geth. But I'm also going to state that the entirety of the Geth are aware of his perspective and experiences with organics. You're forgetting that little tidbit about the Geth. With Legion, the Geth are now aware of the capacity for organics to make a voice for peace and cooperation.

It is quite simple. The only time you find out that the Geth were open to peace talks with the Quarians is if you do Tali's Loyalty Mission AFTER Legion's and that you take Legion on board Quarian vessel with you. This means you let your crew die in 99% of the cases. Most people didn't do that. I didn't in 12 play throughs of ME2. I've seen it on Youtube. Once you do its loyalty mission he contacts the consensus, but you don't get this information unless you do what I just wrote.

When does Legion contact the consensus? In the AI core immediately after its Loyalty mission.

Usually Legion's Loyalty Mission is just prior to the Suicide Mission which means you don't get that dialogue.

However, if Legion is killed on the Suicide Mission, then Geth VI takes over and all of Legion's data file is mysteriously forgotten by the Geth consensus, and they are not interested in peace.

The main Geth Consensus also got retconned and is not interested in peace since Legion's communications got cut off about the time the reapers hit Batarian space which also indicates that the Rannoch reaper may have gotten there about that time and made a nice cozy home in the silo awaiting the Geth to make their decision to join them. The reapers like stirring up trouble between organics and synthetics anyway, so that would make sense, too.

Face the facts. The reapers have been working for the man for a long time and they like it.

So if I'm role playing, I'll help the Quarians win the war and get that done with. I'll shoot whatever Geth in the face, chest whatever, three times just to make sure. Tali will have her house on her home world. If I'm meta-gaming, I'll make peace for the war assets and choose destroy.

[AlanC9]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

It is quite simple. The only time you find out that the Geth were open to peace talks with the Quarians is if you do Tali's Loyalty Mission AFTER Legion's and that you take Legion on board Quarian vessel with you. This means you let your crew die in 99% of the cases. Most people didn't do that. I didn't in 12 play throughs of ME2. 

The crew dies? Why not do Tali's LM after the SM? Or does  a non-loyal Tali get killed holding the line?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

AlanC9 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

It is quite simple. The only time you find out that the Geth were open to peace talks with the Quarians is if you do Tali's Loyalty Mission AFTER Legion's and that you take Legion on board Quarian vessel with you. This means you let your crew die in 99% of the cases. Most people didn't do that. I didn't in 12 play throughs of ME2. 

The crew dies? Why not do Tali's LM after the SM? Or does  a non-loyal Tali get killed holding the line?

It can happen. Best not to take the chance.

[AlanC9]

But then you get to have Xen with you. It's all good.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
 And you are going out of your way to antagonize the quarians.  only Legion is willing to entertain peace because of what he has experienced.  The mainstream geth do not seem to share his views.  They are compleyely fine with extermminating people who pose no threat to them. You seem to be confusibg Legion as representative oc the entire geth consensus.  He has become quite different from the regular geth as shown if Legion dies on tge SM.

No, I'm telling you that some very stupid choices have come out of the current admiralty of the Quarians. They really made some terrible decisions that nearly damned themselves, the Geth, and possibly the entire war effort.

And can you prove that the Geth are willing to exterminate a race? 300 years of history state otherwise. I'm not going to pretend that Legion is representative of the Geth. But I'm also going to state that the entirety of the Geth are aware of his perspective and experiences with organics. You're forgetting that little tidbit about the Geth. With Legion, the Geth are now aware of the capacity for organics to make a voice for peace and cooperation.

It is quite simple. The only time you find out that the Geth were open to peace talks with the Quarians is if you do Tali's Loyalty Mission AFTER Legion's and that you take Legion on board Quarian vessel with you. This means you let your crew die in 99% of the cases. Most people didn't do that. I didn't in 12 play throughs of ME2. I've seen it on Youtube. Once you do its loyalty mission he contacts the consensus, but you don't get this information unless you do what I just wrote.

When does Legion contact the consensus? In the AI core immediately after its Loyalty mission.

Usually Legion's Loyalty Mission is just prior to the Suicide Mission which means you don't get that dialogue.

However, if Legion is killed on the Suicide Mission, then Geth VI takes over and all of Legion's data file is mysteriously forgotten by the Geth consensus, and they are not interested in peace.

The main Geth Consensus also got retconned and is not interested in peace since Legion's communications got cut off about the time the reapers hit Batarian space which also indicates that the Rannoch reaper may have gotten there about that time and made a nice cozy home in the silo awaiting the Geth to make their decision to join them. The reapers like stirring up trouble between organics and synthetics anyway, so that would make sense, too.

Face the facts. The reapers have been working for the man for a long time and they like it.

So if I'm role playing, I'll help the Quarians win the war and get that done with. I'll shoot whatever Geth in the face, chest whatever, three times just to make sure. Tali will have her house on her home world. If I'm meta-gaming, I'll make peace for the war assets and choose destroy.

I've never had any of my crew die from taking Legion on Tali's loyalty mission. Admittedly, I do the mission immediately after the Derelict Reaper, and after Tali's LM, I do Legion's LM, then the Collectors attack. At this point, every main mission in the game is complete, all crew are aboard and loyal, and it's all systems go to attack the CB. Don't get Legion killed and he returns to the Geth to prepare for the inevitable return of the Reapers. Then the Quarians attack.

I'm really not sure what you're getting at here.

If I couldn't make peace (which I always do), I would't bother with the Quarians. For a multitude or moral or pragmatic reasons, I'd always save the Geth. Honestly, pragmatic reasons are a greater consideration for me.

Simply cut, I don't have to worry about resources with the Geth, I don't have to feed them, they're technologically advanced, they have instant communication and perfect coordination, and every single piece of hardware has a military utility. If nothing else, I feel they'll be the more useful military ally.