402 réponses à ce sujet

[The Night Mammoth]

TheProtheans wrote...

dorktainian wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

You lack understanding of the lore, OP, and thus you misrepresent them.

      

roflmao.    

so the reapers are not mass murdering machines then?  So the 50,000 year cycle is a good thing then?
Would you serve the reapers?  I guess you would.

The Reapers are victims of the cycle as well.
We should be able to live in peace with the Reaper.

Oh sure, Soveriegn and Harbinger sounded so victimized. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 07 mai 2013 - 03:30 .

[Steelcan]

Because the Catalyst attempted to humanize the Reapers and people ate it up.

[Kel Riever]

That's you in there.  With a motherboard.

Synthesis.

[KaiserShep]

The reapers' victimization is a fabrication of people's head-canon. There's nothing to suggest that they are victims of anything.

[AlanC9]

masster blaster wrote...

Useful? The Reapers are not. Why would you find them useful?

Fixing the relays in Destroy comes to mind. Sure, organics will get it done themselves. Eventually.

[AlanC9]

KaiserShep wrote...

The reapers' victimization is a fabrication of people's head-canon. There's nothing to suggest that they are victims of anything.

Following a crazy plan that doesn't benefit the Reapers themselves for a billion years isn't victimization?

[Enhanced]

KaiserShep wrote...

The reapers' victimization is a fabrication of people's head-canon. There's nothing to suggest that they are victims of anything.

"The Reapers are mine. I control them. They are my solution"
-Catalyst

If Reapers are being completely controlled by the Catalyst, and unable to resist, then they are also victims, just like Leviathans' thralls.

Modifié par Enhanced, 07 mai 2013 - 04:09 .

[Yestare7]

Auld Wulf will explain all. Oh, he already did.
Was there much insulting?

[The Night Mammoth]

Enhanced wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

The reapers' victimization is a fabrication of people's head-canon. There's nothing to suggest that they are victims of anything.

"The Reapers are mine. I control them. They are my solution"
-Catalyst

If Reapers are being completely controlled by the Catalyst, and unable to resist, they are also victims, just like Leviathans' thralls.

Why is it assumed that the Reapers even had the capability or even the inclination to resist? Nothing has ever implied that. 

[KaiserShep]

AlanC9 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

The reapers' victimization is a fabrication of people's head-canon. There's nothing to suggest that they are victims of anything.

Following a crazy plan that doesn't benefit the Reapers themselves for a billion years isn't victimization?

No, not really. There's no details on the nature of this control. There's no proof that the reapers disapprove of this plan, and there's no reason to think that they aren't simply operating as a hive mind that all agree that what they're doing is actually right. 

Enhanced wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

The reapers' victimization is a fabrication of people's head-canon. There's nothing to suggest that they are victims of anything.

"The Reapers are mine. I control them. They are my solution"
-Catalyst

If Reapers are being completely controlled by the Catalyst, and unable to resist, then they are also victims, just like Leviathans' thralls.

And this is reading more into the statement than there actually is. I would like to see a direct quote from the catalyst that suggests that, at some point, the reapers ever differed in opinion, were ever inclined to rebel against these plans, and actually wish to be "freed" from it. You won't, though, because there aren't any. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 07 mai 2013 - 04:18 .

[masster blaster]

Yet the Reapers show signs of free will. The catalyst may have control over the Reapers, but just like Saren and TIM became indoctrinated under the Reapers control, which are under the catalyst control. Million of minds are being controlled, yet one Organic mind can break free from the catalyst/ Reaper's control over them. It leads me to believe those organics that are inside the Reaper becmae corrupted by power, and god like feeling, and became monsters over time.

Alan they had choice as did many people have. The Reapers at any time could have broken free, and killed one another, yet they didn't. Instead they surrended to power, and immortality, and ya so what. The organics in destroy can still build the relays again. The Reapers are not need, nor were they ever need to begin with. They are an error created by an AI who's logic counter dicts his own actions.

Modifié par masster blaster, 07 mai 2013 - 04:19 .

[KaiserShep]

Or they could simply be universally endowed with the AI's ideology, thereby guaranteeing permanent cohesion of the reaper forces.

[AlanC9]

KaiserShep wrote...

No, not really. There's no details on the nature of this control. There's no proof that the reapers disapprove of this plan, and there's no reason to think that they aren't simply operating as a hive mind that all agree that what they're doing is actually right. 

I was speaking only in objective terms. I agree that the Reapers we know think what they're doing is just fine, but all that proves is how warped their minds are.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

[Inappropriate post removed.]

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 07 mai 2013 - 08:15 .

[AlanC9]

masster blaster wrote...
Yet the Reapers show signs of free will. The catalyst may have control over the Reapers, but just like Saren and TIM became indoctrinated under the Reapers control, which are under the catalyst control. Million of minds are being controlled, yet one Organic mind can break free from the catalyst/ Reaper's control over them. It leads me to believe those organics that are inside the Reaper becmae corrupted by power, and god like feeling, and became monsters over time.

Alan they had choice as did many people have. The Reapers at any time could have broken free, and killed one another, yet they didn't. Instead they surrended to power, and immortality, and ya so what. The organics in destroy can still build the relays again. The Reapers are not need, nor were they ever need to begin with. They are an error created by an AI who's logic counter dicts his own actions.

All I get from that is that controlling a mind from birth works better than imposing control after that being has lived independently.

But if it makes you happier to believe otherwise, nobody's going to be able to produce evidence one way or the other. The main problem with your argument is that hibernating doesn't serve any rational Reaper goal, but I suppose you could say it's a religion or something.

Modifié par AlanC9, 07 mai 2013 - 04:29 .

[Enhanced]

KaiserShep wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

The reapers' victimization is a fabrication of people's head-canon. There's nothing to suggest that they are victims of anything.

Following a crazy plan that doesn't benefit the Reapers themselves for a billion years isn't victimization?

No, not really. There's no details on the nature of this control. There's no proof that the reapers disapprove of this plan, and there's no reason to think that they aren't simply operating as a hive mind that all agree that what they're doing is actually right. 

Enhanced wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

The reapers' victimization is a fabrication of people's head-canon. There's nothing to suggest that they are victims of anything.

"The Reapers are mine. I control them. They are my solution"
-Catalyst

If Reapers are being completely controlled by the Catalyst, and unable to resist, then they are also victims, just like Leviathans' thralls.

And this is reading more into the statement than there actually is. I would like to see a direct quote from the catalyst that suggests that, at some point, the reapers ever differed in opinion, were ever inclined to rebel against these plans, and actually wish to be "freed" from it. You won't, though, because there aren't any. 

That's my point. So, how can they be accountable for their actions?

Modifié par Enhanced, 07 mai 2013 - 04:30 .

[Astartes Marine]

masster blaster wrote...
Useful? The Reapers are not. Why would you find them useful. Oh they are powerful, and they have vast information. 

They can help repair the damaged relays/citadel.
They can help repair all the stations and worlds they helped destroy.
They can lend their vast stores of knowledge to advance technology in various areas like medical, military, and the like not to mention the complete technical schematics of the Mass Relays and the Citadel station and various Reaper systems like propulsion, armor, shields and weapons.

masster blaster wrote...
a at the end of ME3 with just one push of a trigger on a
gun you can kill those useful Reapers. With just a hand full of ships
you can destroy one Reaper.

Yeah you could, not saying you couldn't.

masster blaster wrote...
Why
would I need the Reapers to do my dirty work, or why do I need the
Reapers to enforce galatic law on everyone. If I control the Reapers, I
am no better than the catalyst. Uses the Reapers to my own end, for
what. Everything that the Reapers can do, the organics, and synthetics
can do to. I see no point in letting those organics trapped inside of
the Reaper be used for someones ends.

The Reaper war took a massive toll on economies, on populations, on military forces, etc.  The whole galaxy went to hell in a handbasket.  To suddenly have a massive force of nigh unstoppable war machines...say...on humanity's side suddenly could tip the balance of power to them and not one species could do a damned thing to stop it. 

After all the repairs are done and humanity's security is confirmed one could always just send the Reapers into the nearest star to get rid of them and things could get back to some form of normal. 

[TheProtheans]

When TIM used Shepard to shoot Anderson, Shepard was innocent, he was merely a tool used.
The Reapers are the same.
Like when Shepard was freed from control of TIM, we need to free the Reapers from control of the Starchild.

The Reapers are not our enemy.

[KaiserShep]

TheProtheans wrote...

When TIM used Shepard to shoot Anderson, Shepard was innocent, he was merely a tool used.
The Reapers are the same.
Like when Shepard was freed from control of TIM, we need to free the Reapers from control of the Starchild.

The Reapers are not our enemy.

Everything you're saying now has no basis even in the reality of the story. When the Illusive Man makes Shepard shoot Anderson, we already know right off the bat that Shepard does not approve of harming Anderson, because they're friends. We have no information that could suppose something similar for the reapers. None. No one will find any, because none is given, either by the reapers or even the catalyst, to suggest that the reapers are doing the opposite of what they would normally do. 

As for your last claim, it's the husks, banshees, cannibals, harvesters, brutes, scions and ravagers that are victims, because they were forcibly turned against their own kind. The same is not evident of the reapers. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 07 mai 2013 - 04:42 .

[AlexMBrennan]

As for your last claim, it's the husks, banshees, cannibals, harvesters, brutes, scions and ravagers that are victims, because they were forcibly turned against their own kind. The same is not evident of the reapers.

That isn't true either and conflicts with the first part of the post - the humans, asari, baterians, etc made into Reapers are the victims but we have no idea about the state of mind of the resulting husks and such.

[CosmicGnosis]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Find my reasoning for why the Reapers are as much victims of the cycle as the species they were made of in this thread.

Any Reaper is not more or less "good or innocent" than the species it was made of. Harbinger was made from the leviathans.... However, what they are not is responsible for the cycle. See the linked thread for more details.

If you read Ieldra's thread, and you still can't comprehend the possibility that the Reapers may not have complete control of their own thoughts and actions, then you are a lost cause.

Too harsh? Well, don't accuse me of being pro-dictatorship and pro-rape.

I try to be nice in discussions like these, but BSN is, frankly, very mean to people who don't share the majority opinion. Sometimes there needs to be some pushback.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 07 mai 2013 - 05:02 .

[masster blaster]

Reapers are created by the catalyst's logic, and the selfishness of greed, and power. Those organics that are in the Reaper are not theirselves anymore. Like Paragon Shepard says to the Reaper on Tali's homeworld. " Their dead now, and now they can find peace." The Reaper it's self is a monster, which is them. They had chocie, and they still do, yet if one organic mind that is controlled by both the Reapers, and the catalyst, then ya they could have fought the catalyst's control.

Also you mean to tell me Nazara, and Harbinger don't count as proof that they are showing signs of independent thoughts, and morals. Nazara basically is all the catalyst is trying to stop, yet Nazara is in fact it's self. I see no hint of control over the Reapers. More like the Reapers have come to terms with the cycle, and harvesting.

[masster blaster]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

As for your last claim, it's the husks, banshees, cannibals, harvesters, brutes, scions and ravagers that are victims, because they were forcibly turned against their own kind. The same is not evident of the reapers.

That isn't true either and conflicts with the first part of the post - the humans, asari, baterians, etc made into Reapers are the victims but we have no idea about the state
of mind of the resulting husks and such.

No. They are victums, yet the Reapers are not. Yes at a time they were, but not anymore. Once that organic race was put into a Reaper body, there was nothing innocent about them anymore. Hsuk, and the Reaper soldiers don't think. They are mindless slaves that work for the Reapers. Reapers can think, they can learn, they can make chocies. Yes they are controlled, yet how far does that control go?

[masster blaster]

Why would some one make humanity the dominate race? TIM wanted to because he was indoctrinated long and came up with that idea. Humanity shouldn't have all the power, and the Reapers should be destroyed, and not used.

[Astartes Marine]

masster blaster wrote...
Why would some one make humanity the dominate race?

Because I could choose to?  Anyways I wouldn't make them the dominant power as in they wouldn't be lording over other races, but they wouldn't be the lowest tier pushovers anymore.

masster blaster wrote...
Humanity shouldn't have all the power, and the
Reapers should be destroyed, and not used.

That's your view, I have my own and will do as I please when I play the game.