402 réponses à ce sujet

[Phatose]

But Reapers are constructed and educated either directly by the catalyst, or indirectly by other Reapers who have been constructed and educated by the catalyst.

Their morality will have been defined by an entity who doesn't consider their actions wrong. Makes things complicated.

[KaiserShep]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

As for your last claim, it's the husks, banshees, cannibals, harvesters, brutes, scions and ravagers that are victims, because they were forcibly turned against their own kind. The same is not evident of the reapers.

That isn't true either and conflicts with the first part of the post - the humans, asari, baterians, etc made into Reapers are the victims but we have no idea about the state of mind of the resulting husks and such.

When I say victim, I mean dead. Everything they were is essentially gone. The states of their minds are no longer relevant, because there's nothing that makes itself apparent, or "replaced by tech" as Mordin would put it. They're not thralls, they're just semi-synthetic zombies. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 07 mai 2013 - 05:05 .

[Yestare7]

CosmicGnosis wrote...



If you read Ieldra's thread, and you still can't comprehend the possibility that the Reapers may not have complete control of their own thoughts and actions, then you are a lost cause.

I'm gonna quote from ME1, are you sitting down?

"In the end, what does it matter? Your salvation lies in their destruction, not in understanding"





Y

[teh DRUMPf!!]

What are you guys still talking about? I answered the question on page-1.


There's nothing more to discuss.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I blame the fact that we never get their motivation for anything until we see the starbrat, and he makes it sound like they're all enslaved to him.

Had they had the reapers motivations for reaping stated earlier in the series, than I doubt many would say that they are innocent of their crimes.

I think they're a force that can be reformed, but if they weren't evil, they wouldn't need to be reformed in the first place.

[TheProtheans]

KaiserShep wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

When TIM used Shepard to shoot Anderson, Shepard was innocent, he was merely a tool used.
The Reapers are the same.
Like when Shepard was freed from control of TIM, we need to free the Reapers from control of the Starchild.

The Reapers are not our enemy.

Everything you're saying now has no basis even in the reality of the story. When the Illusive Man makes Shepard shoot Anderson, we already know right off the bat that Shepard does not approve of harming Anderson, because they're friends. We have no information that could suppose something similar for the reapers. None. No one will find any, because none is given, either by the reapers or even the catalyst, to suggest that the reapers are doing the opposite of what they would normally do. 

As for your last claim, it's the husks, banshees, cannibals, harvesters, brutes, scions and ravagers that are victims, because they were forcibly turned against their own kind. The same is not evident of the reapers. 

The Reapers had no choice, they were forced to be Reapers.
It is not different for the husks.

Perhaps the Goa'uld is a better example, the hosts are not respsonsible for what the Goa'uld do.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 07 mai 2013 - 05:14 .

[Enhanced]

masster blaster wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

As for your last claim, it's the husks, banshees, cannibals, harvesters, brutes, scions and ravagers that are victims, because they were forcibly turned against their own kind. The same is not evident of the reapers.

That isn't true either and conflicts with the first part of the post - the humans, asari, baterians, etc made into Reapers are the victims but we have no idea about the state
of mind of the resulting husks and such.

No. They are victums, yet the Reapers are not. Yes at a time they were, but not anymore. Once that organic race was put into a Reaper body, there was nothing innocent about them anymore. Hsuk, and the Reaper soldiers don't think. They are mindless slaves that work for the Reapers. Reapers can think, they can learn, they can make chocies. Yes they are controlled, yet how far does that control go?

Really far. If Shepard chooses the control option, they immediately stop what they are doing, and obey their new controller. Does that seem like things that beings who are able to think, learn, and make their own choices would do? I don't think so.

Modifié par Enhanced, 07 mai 2013 - 05:30 .

[CosmicGnosis]

Yestare7 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...



If you read Ieldra's thread, and you still can't comprehend the possibility that the Reapers may not have complete control of their own thoughts and actions, then you are a lost cause.

I'm gonna quote from ME1, are you sitting down?

"In the end, what does it matter? Your salvation lies in their destruction, not in understanding"

And I always thought that was a bad idea. I considered the possibility that the only way we could ever beat them was by understanding them. If we could never hope to beat them with military force, then we would have to learn something about them and hope that it would provide us with some kind of advantage.

[KaiserShep]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Yestare7 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...



If you read Ieldra's thread, and you still can't comprehend the possibility that the Reapers may not have complete control of their own thoughts and actions, then you are a lost cause.

I'm gonna quote from ME1, are you sitting down?

"In the end, what does it matter? Your salvation lies in their destruction, not in understanding"

And I always thought that was a bad idea. I considered the possibility that the only way we could ever beat them was by understanding them. If we could never hope to beat them with military force, then we would have to learn something about them and hope that it would provide us with some kind of advantage.

I guess that begs the question as to what sorts of advantages they could provide that they haven't already handed down through their elaborate mass relay trap. In the end, all options allow the reapers to leave behind a wealth of technology for us to study, whether it be the "rewritten" reapers, the post-synth universe reapers, or dead reapers. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

They are just machines programmed to do what they do. This time the organics are taking charge. The best reforming of them is to turn each of them into a puddle of slag.

Our "salvation lies in their destruction, not in understanding." - Vigil

* Synthesis - The ONLY reason they stop killing is that there is nothing more to kill. They are programmed to kill advanced organic and first use then kill synthetic life. There isn't anymore of either. That is the only reason they stop. The sacrifice is too high.

* Control - They are given a command by their new master to stop the harvest for now. Who knows what the future holds? The sacrifice is too high.

Then I'm just a soldier who can only see things down the barrel of a gun. Anyone who thinks the reapers are "good guys" is indoctrinated. -- Cmdr. Shepard.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Do you people realize that your own Shepard was close to meeting the same fate as the Reapers?

ME2 opens with Miranda telling us that she wanted to implant you with a control-chip, but TIM ruled against it.

... Now let's imagine it *did* happen, what would Shepard become under Cerberus control? Well, we have an example from one of the side-missions in ME3, Private Talavi's brother who joined them...

Before:

Finally here. Wow, the troops here are really intense. No one smiles. Ever. And suicide on capture orders? Seriously? They call training "integration." I start being integrated tommorrow. Can't wait.

After:

Integration successful. Suicide on capture orders confirmed. Cerberus is my friend. Obey. Protect humanity. At any cost.

Source: http://masseffect.wi...7:_Cerberus_Lab


Folks, that could have been Shepard.You think that mind-control is just some negligible factor into a person's personality? It isn't, and people saying otherwise are simply trying to run away/deny reality that is too inconveneint to acknowledge.

If we apply the logic that Destroyers ITT are touting, then a supposed Commander Shepard under Cerberus control is not misunderstood, all of his actions and all of the words that come out of his mouth are genuine and he/she really is a willing Cerberus zealot that cannot be shown any mercy (much less be allowed to live sans-control)!

In that, let's not forget how quick people were willing to try to save the 'clone in Citadel DLC. I'm sure everyone who didn't is going to come in here and say "nooo not me!!" but a quick search of the word "clone" in the forum's search bar will yield plenty of threads people made that defend, sympathize, even advocate for the clone's life in some way.

I suppose they are all just N@zis as knightnblu would have you believe (I love how no Destroyers acknoledged the trolling of one of their own... clearly it's only bad if someone like Auld_Wulf does it, not someone the LCD agrees with).

To say "well, they sound like they agree." This "sounds like"-nonsense is classic. No ****, Sherlock; a brainwashed minion is always made to think what they are doing is right and that they're not brainwashed. That's why it's moronic to treat that person like (1) they have full autonomy, (2) they realize what they're doing, (3) you can safely judge who/what they are.

Anyway, this post is a lot more effort than this thread deserves. Clearly, the OP's side has no interest in listening, just talking, and clearly much rather take the "baffle 'em with BS"-approach than "dazzle them with brilliance," that's all of you who'd rather make passive-aggressive potshots at the other side along with outright ridiculing, name-calling and the like.

Well, talk now. Try to address a post like this to my face and see how far the "baffle 'em with BS" approach will get you, because it's not going to work on me.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 07 mai 2013 - 06:18 .

[Yestare7]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

They are just machines programmed to do what they do. This time the organics are taking charge. The best reforming of them is to turn each of them into a puddle of slag.

Our "salvation lies in their destruction, not in understanding." - Vigil

* Synthesis - The ONLY reason they stop killing is that there is nothing more to kill. They are programmed to kill advanced organic and first use then kill synthetic life. There isn't anymore of either. That is the only reason they stop. The sacrifice is too high.

* Control - They are given a command by their new master to stop the harvest for now. Who knows what the future holds? The sacrifice is too high.

Then I'm just a soldier who can only see things down the barrel of a gun. Anyone who thinks the reapers are "good guys" is indoctrinated. -- Cmdr. Shepard.

I agree with ALL of the above.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

@ HYR 2.0 -- the simple fact of the matter is that it didn't happen to Shepard. Therefore, we don't have to apply that logic.

And yes, I'll admit I tried to save the clone. She wasn't me. She was physically an identical twin. Get her some psychiatric work, and set her up with a real ID. Brooks, however was a twisted b****. Set her up with a bullet in the brain. Nothing to worry about. She was of no value especially since I played it post ending.

[Deathsaurer]

KaiserShep wrote...

When I say victim, I mean dead. Everything they were is essentially gone. The states of their minds are no longer relevant, because there's nothing that makes itself apparent, or "replaced by tech" as Mordin would put it. They're not thralls, they're just semi-synthetic zombies. 

The Awakened Collectors proves this wrong. Even after all the cloning and genetic modification they can still remember the Prothean Empire.

[Wayning_Star]

In a future such as the MEU, there will be memories, even the stargazer, so many years later, remembers it all and all the choices made. We, As Shepard had to have our memories refreshed, but we're organic... The Machines would remember, or have a memory chit lying around, similar to Javik.

There is no possibility that what ever Shepard does won't be remembered or recorded. Didn't Liara leave a time capsule? Seems as if some missed Ai would have the data. The Levaithan still exist as well. And so on..

[The Night Mammoth]

Deathsaurer wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

When I say victim, I mean dead. Everything they were is essentially gone. The states of their minds are no longer relevant, because there's nothing that makes itself apparent, or "replaced by tech" as Mordin would put it. They're not thralls, they're just semi-synthetic zombies. 

The Awakened Collectors proves this wrong. Even after all the cloning and genetic modification they can still remember the Prothean Empire.

That's not exactly a desirable existence; warped beyond all recognition and driven by vengence, and regardless, a Collector is not a Reaper. 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I guess at the end of the day I just don't care about Reapers.

I kill the Reapers, and not a single tear will be shed at their passing.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 07 mai 2013 - 09:00 .

[Wayning_Star]

technically, you cannot "kill" a reaper, they are NOT alive..their contents have potential, as provided by lore and codex, as well as the star gazers...

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Wayning_Star wrote...

technically, you cannot "kill" a reaper, they are NOT alive..their contents have potential, as provided by lore and codex, as well as the star gazers...

Well then I DELETE the Reapers, if you're going to be that guy about things.

[Yestare7]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

technically, you cannot "kill" a reaper, they are NOT alive..their contents have potential, as provided by lore and codex, as well as the star gazers...

Well then I DELETE the Reapers, if you're going to be that guy about things.

I love Cheesecake!

[CosmicGnosis]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Do you people realize that your own Shepard was close to meeting the same fate as the Reapers?

ME2 opens with Miranda telling us that she wanted to implant you with a control-chip, but TIM ruled against it.

... Now let's imagine it *did* happen, what would Shepard become under Cerberus control? Well, we have an example from one of the side-missions in ME3, Private Talavi's brother who joined them...

Before:

Finally here. Wow, the troops here are really intense. No one smiles. Ever. And suicide on capture orders? Seriously? They call training "integration." I start being integrated tommorrow. Can't wait.

After:

Integration successful. Suicide on capture orders confirmed. Cerberus is my friend. Obey. Protect humanity. At any cost.

Source: http://masseffect.wi...7:_Cerberus_Lab


Folks, that could have been Shepard.You think that mind-control is just some negligible factor into a person's personality? It isn't, and people saying otherwise are simply trying to run away/deny reality that is too inconveneint to acknowledge.

If we apply the logic that Destroyers ITT are touting, then a supposed Commander Shepard under Cerberus control is not misunderstood, all of his actions and all of the words that come out of his mouth are genuine and he/she really is a willing Cerberus zealot that cannot be shown any mercy (much less be allowed to live sans-control)!

In that, let's not forget how quick people were willing to try to save the 'clone in Citadel DLC. I'm sure everyone who didn't is going to come in here and say "nooo not me!!" but a quick search of the word "clone" in the forum's search bar will yield plenty of threads people made that defend, sympathize, even advocate for the clone's life in some way.

I suppose they are all just N@zis as knightnblu would have you believe (I love how no Destroyers acknoledged the trolling of one of their own... clearly it's only bad if someone like Auld_Wulf does it, not someone the LCD agrees with).

To say "well, they sound like they agree." This "sounds like"-nonsense is classic. No ****, Sherlock; a brainwashed minion is always made to think what they are doing is right and that they're not brainwashed. That's why it's moronic to treat that person like (1) they have full autonomy, (2) they realize what they're doing, (3) you can safely judge who/what they are.

Anyway, this post is a lot more effort than this thread deserves. Clearly, the OP's side has no interest in listening, just talking, and clearly much rather take the "baffle 'em with BS"-approach than "dazzle them with brilliance," that's all of you who'd rather make passive-aggressive potshots at the other side along with outright ridiculing, name-calling and the like.

Well, talk now. Try to address a post like this to my face and see how far the "baffle 'em with BS" approach will get you, because it's not going to work on me.

Thank you. Seriously. I'm so sick of this forum's nonsense. Some people have this bizarre belief that they must never change their minds. Never. Once they form an opinion, they must never change it. They must never be open to new data, and they must never admit that they could be wrong.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 07 mai 2013 - 09:10 .

[Wayning_Star]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

technically, you cannot "kill" a reaper, they are NOT alive..their contents have potential, as provided by lore and codex, as well as the star gazers...

Well then I DELETE the Reapers, if you're going to be that guy about things.

lol.. No you delete their contents, as that is what reaperships are, besides hardware bodies. No other reason to call the harvest...well, a harvest. Ugly word I know, but it doesn't change this a story fact....

[Wayning_Star]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Do you people realize that your own Shepard was close to meeting the same fate as the Reapers?

ME2 opens with Miranda telling us that she wanted to implant you with a control-chip, but TIM ruled against it.

... Now let's imagine it *did* happen, what would Shepard become under Cerberus control? Well, we have an example from one of the side-missions in ME3, Private Talavi's brother who joined them...

Before:

Finally here. Wow, the troops here are really intense. No one smiles. Ever. And suicide on capture orders? Seriously? They call training "integration." I start being integrated tommorrow. Can't wait.

After:

Integration successful. Suicide on capture orders confirmed. Cerberus is my friend. Obey. Protect humanity. At any cost.

Source: http://masseffect.wi...7:_Cerberus_Lab


Folks, that could have been Shepard.You think that mind-control is just some negligible factor into a person's personality? It isn't, and people saying otherwise are simply trying to run away/deny reality that is too inconveneint to acknowledge.

If we apply the logic that Destroyers ITT are touting, then a supposed Commander Shepard under Cerberus control is not misunderstood, all of his actions and all of the words that come out of his mouth are genuine and he/she really is a willing Cerberus zealot that cannot be shown any mercy (much less be allowed to live sans-control)!

In that, let's not forget how quick people were willing to try to save the 'clone in Citadel DLC. I'm sure everyone who didn't is going to come in here and say "nooo not me!!" but a quick search of the word "clone" in the forum's search bar will yield plenty of threads people made that defend, sympathize, even advocate for the clone's life in some way.

I suppose they are all just N@zis as knightnblu would have you believe (I love how no Destroyers acknoledged the trolling of one of their own... clearly it's only bad if someone like Auld_Wulf does it, not someone the LCD agrees with).

To say "well, they sound like they agree." This "sounds like"-nonsense is classic. No ****, Sherlock; a brainwashed minion is always made to think what they are doing is right and that they're not brainwashed. That's why it's moronic to treat that person like (1) they have full autonomy, (2) they realize what they're doing, (3) you can safely judge who/what they are.

Anyway, this post is a lot more effort than this thread deserves. Clearly, the OP's side has no interest in listening, just talking, and clearly much rather take the "baffle 'em with BS"-approach than "dazzle them with brilliance," that's all of you who'd rather make passive-aggressive potshots at the other side along with outright ridiculing, name-calling and the like.

Well, talk now. Try to address a post like this to my face and see how far the "baffle 'em with BS" approach will get you, because it's not going to work on me.

Thank you. Seriously. I'm so sick of this forum's nonsense. Some people have this bizarre belief that they must never change their minds. Never. Once they form an opinion, they must never change it. They must never be open to new data, and they must never admit that they could be wrong.

fight reaperships with reapers..lol

really tho, this does explain the catalyst frustration with 'chaos'...er, controversy.

[Yestare7]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...
 (I love how no Destroyers acknoledged the trolling of one of their own... clearly it's only bad if someone like Auld_Wulf does it, not someone the LCD agrees with).

Thank you. Seriously. I'm so sick of this forum's nonsense.

Lighten up guys, tomorrow is meatball wednesday.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

@ HYR 2.0 -- the simple fact of the matter is that it didn't happen to Shepard.

Which is why I posed it as a hypothetical.

Sorry, big word, and probably new to you(!) so here's the dictionary: http://dictionary.re...se/hypothetical

I know, I know, this requires thinking. Fortunately, I provided an in-game example of someone who *did* get a 'chip so you don't have to hurt your head: Hypothetical Shepard or C. Talavi, take your pick.

Therefore, we don't have to apply that logic.

That logic is already being applied freely by your side ITT. I'm just testing it for validity... and ultimately, it has none.

It's just a double-standard in which Reapers are put beneath the standard of comparable mind-control victims.

Your logic sucks, which is why you're trying to run and hide rather than even attempt to defend it.

And yes, I'll admit I tried to save the clone. She wasn't me. She was physically an identical twin.

lol... anyone trying to pull a mentally-unstable lab subject to safety loses their right to criticize non-Destroyers.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 07 mai 2013 - 09:14 .