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[Astartes Marine]

TheProtheans wrote...
My opinion on the Reapers depends on how I view them in that moment.
It reminds me of an episode of Star trek voyager where Tuvok and Neelix were merged into a signle being(Tuvix).
I was both for the new being the two combined created and against it.
Tuvix was somewhat of an insult to Tuvok and Neelix and uncomfortable for everyone.
The Reapers are much the same for me, it hard to for me to have a definite view on the nature of the Reapers.

Okay, that one nearly killed me.  Seriously.  The Voyager reference, a horrendously bad episode to a mediocre at best show. 

I would think the Borg are a closer comparison.  They are numberless and far stronger than the standard races in each universe, they forcibly add members of other species into their own (harvests/assimilation), regular forces comprised of corrupted members of said species (husks/drones), are controlled by a terribly written central character (holobrat/queen), seeking an overarching goal (a solution/perfection), and are a synthesis of organic and technology.

[KaiserShep]

And at least with the borg, certain individuals can be freed from the collective.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I think of it as being along similar lines to the geth in ME3 when the quarians kill large numbers of them and they make the decision to ally with the Reapers: they are free, but their perspective has been narrowed to the point that they aren't able to exercise logic and consider alternatives to the same extent they could have.

I don't think the Catalyst is controlling every thought, word, and deed of the Reapers, but it has limited their perspective so that they are unable to reach any conclusion other than agreeing with the Catalyst that the cycles are necessary. Some of them may have developed contempt for organics (and other synthetics), and Harbinger, of course, was created from the Leviathans, who are not exactly poster children for respectful attitudes for other species.

But that doesn't mean that they can't and wouldn't adopt a different attitude if given the freedom to do so, just like how the geth decide to fight the Reapers and reconcile with the quarians if Shepard brokers peace between the two. I'd also point out that the Rannoch Reaper seems a little less inherently arrogant than Sovereign or Harbinger - it argues that the harvests are necessary, but there's a little less of the "shut up and know your place" attitude in the way it speaks to Shepard.

[Wynterdust]

Assumptions are not fact. Saying they are free has the exact same validity as saying they are not free in synthesis. We are not given that information so we do not know. You are only given information by EDI in the prologue. She was never under the Catalysts control so she would not know if they are any different from before. The Catalyst may well just be controlling them to work with everyone as his preferred solution is now in place. They might be free and they might not be, we are not given that information.
One thing I do not understand about the arguments though is how some pro-synth members complain about some pro-destroyers when a lot of the time they are the ones obnoxiously insulting the destroyer crowds intelligence a lot of the time and completely disregarding actual evidence when it interferes with their interpretation/headcannon. It works both ways but I notice it comes from the green side more so. (Sorry to those pro-greeners who aren't like that).

[AlanC9]

Astartes Marine wrote...

Okay, that one nearly killed me.  Seriously.  The Voyager reference, a horrendously bad episode to a mediocre at best show. 

What was wrong with "Tuvix"? No more preposterous than the TOS episode they based it on.

[Megaton_Hope]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

For the slow ones, TheProtheans = troll poster on fourth account.

Dear sir, given your expertise on trolls, why should we listen to and trust you?

[Astartes Marine]

AlanC9 wrote...

Astartes Marine wrote...
Okay, that one nearly killed me.  Seriously.  The Voyager reference, a horrendously bad episode to a mediocre at best show. 

What was wrong with "Tuvix"? No more preposterous than the TOS episode they based it on.

The first major problem was that it involved Neelix as a main character which in itself is an unforgiveable crime as far as I'm concerned.

After that it was just incredibly dull and ordinary as far as a Trek episode goes.  The fact that it retreaded an already done plot didn't help. 

[edisnooM]

Enhanced wrote...

*Pyramid Prevention Snip*

 You're right, it wasn't implied in any interactions with the Reaper themselves.  But, at the end of ME2, we learn that every Reaper is a collective intelligence of organics minds. It didn't make sense that they would all just turn against evil and start killing/harvesting other races on their own. I assumed that Harbinger was controlling them .The ending of ME3 is supposed to be the plot twist. And, the Control option proves that they are all forced.

Well, actually we don't learn they are a collective intelligence. To my recollection all we learn is that the Reapers are quite literally melting people down and dumping them into a Reaper shell. It's less a twist and more horrific reveal, "Soylent Green is people", here is the terrible truth: we organics are nothing but raw materials for Reaperduction. In fact to the best of my memory the only thing that infers the minds are still there is in Legion's extremely obscure and hard to obtain dialogue that I think I have seen a grand total of zero times in my many playthroughs of ME2. Even then he says nothing as to the state of the minds, or what remains of those killed to make the Reaper. Certainly the process of creation doesn't give much reason to assume anything is left of them.

Comparing this to what we have seen of Reaper constructs to that point I don't see why we should expect anything to remain, husks certainly seem rather mindless, cyber zombies in fact. And Mordin explains quite clearly that there is nothing left of the Protheans should Shepard express a desire to help the Collectors.

Further character interaction is an essential part of forming opinions in Mass Effect. The only reason I think better of the Geth is from meeting Legion. Prior to that point all Geth = Bad Guys, but then we meet Legion and not only does he save us, he proceeds to talk to us, somthing no Geth has ever done. Then when we get back to the ship, from talking to him we learn there is more to the Geth than we have been led to believe. And had we never met Wrex, or Grunt, or any of the more friendly Krogan, or done Mordins mission, if all we saw was the brutal savage and blood thirsty ones who tried to kill us, my opinion of them and curing the Genophage would be remarkably different.

In our interactions with Saren, Benezia, Shiala, TIM, or anyone under Reaper thrall we can in some cases detect them resisting Reaper control, we can break through and see that they are not yet completely lost, but of the Reapers there is nothing but cold indifference, disgust, and contempt for those beneath them.

So how we have interacted with the Reapers, and how they interacted with us is I think absolutely important for us knowing what they are.

The "plot twist" in the final minutes of a three game trilogy is I think a huge problem too. If it is indeed trying to say the Reapers were toothless and all rainbows and daisies, it completely clashes with everything seen prior. It would be exactly like Sauron turning out to be a good guy just as Frodo reaches Mount Doom.

And I'm not really how Control proves anything as far as Reapers being forced. Pre-EC there was nothing, and post-EC they are clearly being controlled or "forced" by Shepard to rebuild the Relays and obey his/her/it's will, but them being forced to obey Shepard 2.0 does not prove they were being forced to obey before. It doesn't really tell us anything, anymore than Frodo becoming the Lord of the Rings and forcing the Nazgul to work in a soup kitchen proves they weren't evil before.


Also somewhat related to this discussion is this quote from Mac Walters in an article posted January 27, 2012:

"You can't go and find one Reaper who actually turns out to be a good guy… things like, "Oh, yeah, these Reapers are OK." People playing the game will hopefull say, ‘Nope. They're as bad as everyone said they are.' You really don't want to be doing anything but killing them."

Source: kotaku.com/5880034/how-bioware-writes-a-mass-effect-game

Granted, given the track record of pre-release quotes that's probably worth about as much as the pixels it's printed on.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

For the slow ones, TheProtheans = troll poster on fourth account.

Dear sir, given your expertise on trolls, why should we listen to and trust you?

"All you need to know is that I have more credentials than you."

[Enhanced]

edisnooM wrote...

Enhanced wrote...

*Pyramid Prevention Snip*

 You're right, it wasn't implied in any interactions with the Reaper themselves.  But, at the end of ME2, we learn that every Reaper is a collective intelligence of organics minds. It didn't make sense that they would all just turn against evil and start killing/harvesting other races on their own. I assumed that Harbinger was controlling them .The ending of ME3 is supposed to be the plot twist. And, the Control option proves that they are all forced.

Well, actually we don't learn they are a collective intelligence. To my recollection all we learn is that the Reapers are quite literally melting people down and dumping them into a Reaper shell. It's less a twist and more horrific reveal, "Soylent Green is people", here is the terrible truth: we organics are nothing but raw materials for Reaperduction. In fact to the best of my memory the only thing that infers the minds are still there is in Legion's extremely obscure and hard to obtain dialogue that I think I have seen a grand total of zero times in my many playthroughs of ME2. Even then he says nothing as to the state of the minds, or what remains of those killed to make the Reaper. Certainly the process of creation doesn't give much reason to assume anything is left of them.

Comparing this to what we have seen of Reaper constructs to that point I don't see why we should expect anything to remain, husks certainly seem rather mindless, cyber zombies in fact. And Mordin explains quite clearly that there is nothing left of the Protheans should Shepard express a desire to help the Collectors.

Further character interaction is an essential part of forming opinions in Mass Effect. The only reason I think better of the Geth is from meeting Legion. Prior to that point all Geth = Bad Guys, but then we meet Legion and not only does he save us, he proceeds to talk to us, somthing no Geth has ever done. Then when we get back to the ship, from talking to him we learn there is more to the Geth than we have been led to believe. And had we never met Wrex, or Grunt, or any of the more friendly Krogan, or done Mordins mission, if all we saw was the brutal savage and blood thirsty ones who tried to kill us, my opinion of them and curing the Genophage would be remarkably different.

In our interactions with Saren, Benezia, Shiala, TIM, or anyone under Reaper thrall we can in some cases detect them resisting Reaper control, we can break through and see that they are not yet completely lost, but of the Reapers there is nothing but cold indifference, disgust, and contempt for those beneath them.

So how we have interacted with the Reapers, and how they interacted with us is I think absolutely important for us knowing what they are.

The "plot twist" in the final minutes of a three game trilogy is I think a huge problem too. If it is indeed trying to say the Reapers were toothless and all rainbows and daisies, it completely clashes with everything seen prior. It would be exactly like Sauron turning out to be a good guy just as Frodo reaches Mount Doom.

And I'm not really how Control proves anything as far as Reapers being forced. Pre-EC there was nothing, and post-EC they are clearly being controlled or "forced" by Shepard to rebuild the Relays and obey his/her/it's will, but them being forced to obey Shepard 2.0 does not prove they were being forced to obey before. It doesn't really tell us anything, anymore than Frodo becoming the Lord of the Rings and forcing the Nazgul to work in a soup kitchen proves they weren't evil before.


Also somewhat related to this discussion is this quote from Mac Walters in an article posted January 27, 2012:

"You can't go and find one Reaper who actually turns out to be a good guy… things like, "Oh, yeah, these Reapers are OK." People playing the game will hopefull say, ‘Nope. They're as bad as everyone said they are.' You really don't want to be doing anything but killing them."

Source: kotaku.com/5880034/how-bioware-writes-a-mass-effect-game

Granted, given the track record of pre-release quotes that's probably worth about as much as the pixels it's printed on.

So..

1.The Reapers are not  collective intelligences, even though it's specifically stated in that game that they are.
2.The Reapers are not being contolled by the Catalyst, even though it's specifically stated in the game that they are.

..gotcha.

Modifié par Enhanced, 09 mai 2013 - 03:07 .

[Auld Wulf]

@Wynterdust

It's based upon over a year's worth of attacks from the Destroyer side, essentially. When I came here, things were only beginning to turn around. There were still some nasty comments, though. I remember one pro-Destroyer being surprised at the dissent and that the Synthesis fans hadn't been crushed into the ground with all the trolling. He was literally stunned by their resurgence. Often, when you've been trolled that much, you return the sentiment in kind. Especially when the moderation doesn't care to do anything about it.

Furthermore, symbolically it's fairly obvious that the Reapers are freed in Synthesis. If you think it's just another means of control, then compare and contrast the actions of the non-sliders Reapers in Synthesis versus Control. In Control, their actions are completely uniform. In Synthesis they tend to be... well, not. Some fly off, some remain still, one tumbles about, a husk has a very self aware look going on. If you understand how symbolism works, that is a symbolic representation of free will. Free will is, to a degree, a certain element of chaos. Total order can only be achieved via slavery.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 09 mai 2013 - 03:10 .

[Megaton_Hope]

There are so many bothersome aspects to that husk. It's no longer hostile, but it shouldn't have the body's original personality. And if it did, that would be horrific, because husks are such a radical transformation from what they were before they were murdered. And if it didn't, that new identity would be a blank slate, which would have to come to terms with being a weaponized corpse.

[AlanC9]

Let's say you're a weaponized corpse. So what? You're alive now, and whoever used to use that body isn't.

[Megaton_Hope]

Somebody will also have to teach him to speak, read and write so that he can express himself in something other than synthesized screeches and grunts. Kindergarten fulla husks.

[AlanC9]

That wold have made a good ending slide.

[masster blaster]

Your kiding me? Husk okay in synthesis? Please. If you were turned into a husk, and in synthesis you came back to life as a monster that took lives, and made other peoples lives hell you will be totaly fine?

If you say yes, then consider the batarian husk. They are fused with Human parts. Now how's that going to work? Then you have Banshees.....ya...... The Asari woman will go crazy to see themselves as monsters. Brutes are Turian, and Krogan soldiers. A head of a Turian, and a body of a Krogan, ya Turian alive, but Krogan.....no.

Then there are the collectors....if synthesisez back into their selves, well...one they would want to restore their former emipre. Two vengence on the Reapers, wether they are innocent or not.

The ravengers were taken away from the Rachni Queen.....the queen was brutally forced to watch her children become Reaper soldiers.

I can go one, but husk just being fine with everything please.

Not to mention Harbinger = millions of Leviathans. Leviathans want to regain their power and take over the galaxy. Synthesis should not change their view of their plans.

Modifié par masster blaster, 09 mai 2013 - 05:20 .

[masster blaster]

And for the Reapers being innocent.... Again if they are, then I am going to ask again why is it that they can't fight back against the intellegence? I mean If one lesser Organic can fight the intellegences control, then why can't a million minds?

You think they are just mindless tools that can't think for themselves, then why is it that they can talk and express themselves? Not to mention why does the Intellegence say " WE"? It is only it alone that controls the Reapers, and it's not their fault right, yet it refers it'self along with the Reapers as " WE"

The Reapers aren't colaberating with the intellegence by their choice right, yet why " WE"?

I

[masster blaster]

Also if Shepard retains his/her memorys of his/her past, and they help him/her influence his actions, then why not the Reapers? Millions of mind uploaded into one Reaper, either good organics, or bad organics just mushed in one body, and yet all should retain their memorys of the Reapers turning them into a genetic material, so why doesn't that cause them to trigger any retaliation? As I said if one mind can break hold of the Intellegence control, then why can't millions of minds?

[Argolas]

AlanC9 wrote...

Let's say you're a weaponized corpse. So what? You're alive now, and whoever used to use that body isn't.

Embrace Utopia.

[masster blaster]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

I think of it as being along similar lines to the geth in ME3 when the quarians kill large numbers of them and they make the decision to ally with the Reapers: they are free, but their perspective has been narrowed to the point that they aren't able to exercise logic and consider alternatives to the same extent they could have.

I don't think the Catalyst is controlling every thought, word, and deed of the Reapers, but it has limited their perspective so that they are unable to reach any conclusion other than agreeing with the Catalyst that the cycles are necessary. Some of them may have developed contempt for organics (and other synthetics), and Harbinger, of course, was created from the Leviathans, who are not exactly poster children for respectful attitudes for other species.

But that doesn't mean that they can't and wouldn't adopt a different attitude if given the freedom to do so, just like how the geth decide to fight the Reapers and reconcile with the quarians if Shepard brokers peace between the two. I'd also point out that the Rannoch Reaper seems a little less inherently arrogant than Sovereign or Harbinger - it argues that the harvests are necessary, but there's a little less of the "shut up and know your place" attitude in the way it speaks to Shepard.

That's the whole point. If a Reapers attitude is diffrent from that of another, then that means they aren't just programmed to be do what they are told. Which makes you wonder if the Reapers are innocent. At a time maybe, but. 50,000 for god knows how many cycles is a long time to loose ones mind, and start turning evil. Is it the organics fault that they we placed inside of the Reaper, no, but they have chocie. Everyone does. No matter what. If the Reapers are that innocent, then they would fight. As I keep saying if one lesser organic mind can break free from the intellegnece control over them, then what can a million minds do. And that's just from one Reaper?

Modifié par masster blaster, 09 mai 2013 - 05:25 .

[KaiserShep]

Enhanced wrote...
So..

1.The Reapers are not  collective intelligences, even though it's specifically stated in that game that they are.
2.The Reapers are not being contolled by the Catalyst, even though it's specifically stated in the game that they are.

..gotcha.

The point is how this is shown, as well as when this is revealed in the story. Blindsiding the player with this info out of left field while not actually proving it to be true before a choice needs to be made is problematic.

[masster blaster]

Another thing what's the innocent part of the Reaper?

The organics that were forced to become the new Reaper of the cycle?

Or what the Reaper has done?

I ask this because I am seeing the post of half of you that the Reapers, are just machines. That's bs because hello what gives the Reaper life... Organic Genetic Material. And what's the mind of a Reaper? The Organics are the mind. It's body is a machine, but in truth a Reaper is a hybrid.

Also um...howe selfish are you all. I am talking to the synthesis fans. You say Destroy is bad because well you kill the Geth, EDI, and the Reapers, yet how dare you think synthesis is perfect.

Let me tell you something. Giving everyone the same DNA goes against kill the Geth, EDI, and the Reapers. When you rewrite somebodys code you basically kill the original person, hence why in ME2, if you rewrite the Geth heratics, you basically gave them a new code, that erased their orginal self.

Next you gave the Leviathans acsses to ALL of the galaxy. Synthetics can now be CONTROLED by the Leviathans. If you say the Leviathans are innocent, and good guys, and learned from their mistakesreplay Leviathan again. They want to regain their power, and enslave the Reapers.

Then there is the organics that were turned into husk. Oh way they are going to understand it was not their fault, and all is good. Ya that's like trying to forgive All those who followed/ forced to carry out Hitlers evil plans.

I mean over half of the Husk are MIXED together/ FUSED with other organics.

Then there is the whole galaxy forgiving the Reapers...BS. Why because would you give a mentaly ill person an excuess for raping a woman, man ,or children, or killing innocent lives? Hell no at least imo. Why because it that was the case, then you need to read up on people doing this crap

Also ummm did it ever hit you in the head, that the Reapers are made from organic genetic material, and well those organics are alive now, and neither organic that lives inside a Reaper is going to act the same. Think about it if the catalyst was controlling every little thing of the Reapers, then that means the minds of the Reapers should be going nuts. Ya i get the whole everyone is linked to one another, but millions of people inside a reaper.... One body. All alive now..... Ya..... Also what is freedom is it by death, or living?

Modifié par masster blaster, 09 mai 2013 - 05:47 .

[masster blaster]

KaiserShep wrote...

Enhanced wrote...
So..

1.The Reapers are not  collective intelligences, even though it's specifically stated in that game that they are.
2.The Reapers are not being contolled by the Catalyst, even though it's specifically stated in the game that they are.

..gotcha.

The point is how this is shown, as well as when this is revealed in the story. Blindsiding the player with this info out of left field while not actually proving it to be true before a choice needs to be made is problematic.

Um.. where does it say that for number 2? I never heard that at all. The catalyst says ya it controls the Reapers, yet why does it say " WE"? For everything that has happened? Shouldn't it been I commaneded the Reapers to do this, and that. But it never says this, so it leades you to believe that the Reapers either choose to follow the intellegence, or they are that evil.

[Deathsaurer]

edisnooM wrote...

And Mordin explains quite clearly that there is nothing left of the Protheans should Shepard express a desire to help the Collectors.

Mordin was proven wrong bro. Though as maaster has pointed out this opens the door for all sorts of squick in Synthesis. That husk... *shudders*

[Nightwriter]

People seem drawn to defend things they see as "misunderstood" in general. If something is vilified or disliked there will inevitably be a group of white knights that rise up in defense of it for no other reason than that doing so creates adrenaline heavy debate and also gives them the feeling of being in a small enlightened group that challenges popular opinion. For a long time, it was popular to dislike the endings, and it was popular to see the Reapers as enemies despite Starsquirt's revelations.

Add to that the fact that it's clear the writers wanted you to think you'd misunderstood the Reapers, and people not only feel that they are righteously challenging popular opinion by defending them, they feel as if they are among the few who truly "get" what the writers were trying to say.

I say this in regard to people who seem to champion the Reapers zealously, though. We must acknowledge the existence of those who defend the Reapers for clear reasons that aren't based in social pathology.