They say Grey Wardens only recruit the best and elite and Duncan himself was only able to recruit even in whatever place you started there were hundreds of others.
So why did he recruit Daveth and Jory? They never ever show any strengths. First thing Jory does when in the wilds is say that they should go back simply because there was a soldier lying on the floor. You would assume that wherever he came from he would have some experience fighting and has seen dying people before but this alone makes him want to go back. Daveth doesn't say anything bad but then again he doesn't do or say anything that would indicate that he has balls either.
Did BioWare mess up here?
Daveth & Jory
Débuté par
Nyxanna
, mai 08 2013 01:47
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#2
Posté 08 mai 2013 - 02:12
ejoslin
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Ser Jory was an accomplished warrior. Daveth was a very fast-handed, quick witted rogue.
#3
Posté 08 mai 2013 - 02:53
Nyxanna
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Whatever BioWare decided to make up, they don't act that way at all. Jory acts and looks like a dumb meatshield and not like an accomplished warrior. An accomplished warrior would pass the blood ritual. It's actually not that hard to pass really for people who have a lot of skill and strength which I assume an accomplished warrior should have. It makes no sense whatsoever and BioWare was being lazy in that part. It would be more realistic if Jory passed the ritual and simply went to join the army in the fight and died there instead.
#4
Posté 08 mai 2013 - 05:34
ejoslin
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Why would an accomplished warrior pass the blood ritual necessarily? It takes more than skill in battle to survive the joining. In Alistair's joining, one of the recruits died as well. They pick people of strong body and quick wits, and hope they survive.
I thought Ser Jory was a bit of a tool as well, but he had proven himself. I felt bad that he left his pregnant wife to try for the wardens, only to die. What a waste. Daveth I really did like, though. He was just a poor kid who was living by his wits -- and by stealing. But Daveth was a wanted criminal anyway so his death didn't strike me quite as sad as he was going to die if caught anyway.
I thought Ser Jory was a bit of a tool as well, but he had proven himself. I felt bad that he left his pregnant wife to try for the wardens, only to die. What a waste. Daveth I really did like, though. He was just a poor kid who was living by his wits -- and by stealing. But Daveth was a wanted criminal anyway so his death didn't strike me quite as sad as he was going to die if caught anyway.
#5
Posté 08 mai 2013 - 06:40
LilPancho86
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I was a bit disappointed that they are both human males, not a more diverse group of prospective wardens that historically transcend race and gender. Still, canonfodder for the story I suppose, so it ultimately didn't matter.
Perhaps their seemingly inferior background, relative to the Warden's origin, is an explanation to Duncan's recruitment standards in itself. Maybe when searching for the 3rd, Duncan raised the bar, only recruiting a person under unique circumstances with more impactful consequences.
Ser Jory won a tournament, but that is a test of physical combat that is heavily dependent on the relative skill of all its combatants. There is a guarantee that there will be a winner, and the sample size of those involved surely doesn't represent the best of all Ferelden.
The reasoning behind Daveth's recruitment seemed to make more sense to me. It was a direct physical check (thievery) against Duncan himself, who also couldn't match Daveth's speed when thrust into a fight vs flight situation in the heat of the moment.
Ultimately, I think this is all meant to be a buildup for the more charged atmosphere surrounding the Warden's origin, such that it becomes evident that it is we (main character) who are implied to be the strongest of the bunch. Ser Jory won a tourney, get him on relative combat skill. Daveth outwitted a real Grey Warden, get him for raw cunning. The Warden went through a traumatic event that ties to a major faction, and shapes the individual with something to prove. Now that is closest to Grey Warden material, I say.
Perhaps their seemingly inferior background, relative to the Warden's origin, is an explanation to Duncan's recruitment standards in itself. Maybe when searching for the 3rd, Duncan raised the bar, only recruiting a person under unique circumstances with more impactful consequences.
Ser Jory won a tournament, but that is a test of physical combat that is heavily dependent on the relative skill of all its combatants. There is a guarantee that there will be a winner, and the sample size of those involved surely doesn't represent the best of all Ferelden.
The reasoning behind Daveth's recruitment seemed to make more sense to me. It was a direct physical check (thievery) against Duncan himself, who also couldn't match Daveth's speed when thrust into a fight vs flight situation in the heat of the moment.
Ultimately, I think this is all meant to be a buildup for the more charged atmosphere surrounding the Warden's origin, such that it becomes evident that it is we (main character) who are implied to be the strongest of the bunch. Ser Jory won a tourney, get him on relative combat skill. Daveth outwitted a real Grey Warden, get him for raw cunning. The Warden went through a traumatic event that ties to a major faction, and shapes the individual with something to prove. Now that is closest to Grey Warden material, I say.
#6
Posté 08 mai 2013 - 07:27
thats1evildude
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The circumstances of Daveth's recruitment are similar to those of Duncan, who was himself a street rat when he was younger and joined the Order after robbing a Grey Warden. Besides being impressed that the young rogue was able to pick his pocket, he obviously saw something of himself in Daveth.
As for Jory, he had demonstrated both skill AND a desire to join the Wardens. Not everyone is so eager.
As for Jory, he had demonstrated both skill AND a desire to join the Wardens. Not everyone is so eager.
#7
Posté 08 mai 2013 - 08:43
Bhryaen
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Oh, boy. This discussion has migrated...
I can think of numerous reasons why Duncan recruited those two in particular, but the main factors would be:
1. There's a blight on, so it's best not to be too strict lest you recruit one too few for the imminent and very needy cause.
2. Recruits aren't exactly crawling out of the woodwork. The number who come entreating to join (Jory) or who are promising and in a predicament that facilitates recruitment (Daveth) are few, and Duncan is only one headhunter out doing the recruitment for all of Ferelden (as far as I can tell). He takes who he can get and deals with it as it goes along.
3. That's just how it's done. You can't know on the face of it if a recruit is going to chicken out or fail the chalice num-num test. You just keep plodding "ever forward," as Duncan says, and hope for the best. Ultimately it doesn't come down to selecting a candidate with all the particular, precise qualifications already ascertained or even ascertainable. That said, Duncan risks a Theirin, a Cousland, and an Aeducan on that gamble. But it's a gamble all the same and can't be helped. (I always imagine he could give some sort of advice before handing over the chalice, like "Be strong. You will need to muster all of your being to resist the corruption of the taint." Something to explain the success stories other than a dice roll (or scripted plot device), but, oh, well.)
And Jory isn't too bad. He's your typical Lvl 3 two-handed warrior and seems earnest enough, albeit with that sense of entitlement to have Wardenhood (or whatever other honors) presented to him just because he feels he deserves it. I can't imagine how he won the Redcliffe tourny though. At the Provings it's always the two-handers that are easiest to defeat- those long swings opening them up for exploit. I can only picture a computer-generated set of one-on-one battles in which random dumb luck wins it fir him.
But despite his trepidation in the Korcari, they aren't exactly a safe place, as we know, so it's not as if he had no reason to fret, particularly as he hadn't yet been informed of Alistair's non-existent darkspawn sensing powers to know that Alistair would be able to not sense nearby darkspawn for them. (Daveth's "We may be killed, but at least we'll be watned about it first" is one of the funniest lines in the game...) And for the remainder of the Korcari effort he never turns and bolts like a Loghain, not even when facing a witch which he thinks will turn him into a newt. It was only the Joining where he really showed his cowardice. And at that point it hardly matters if he were to have survived the spawny num-num juice: he'd likely have shied from plenty of other gruesome tasks as well. "You mean I have to fight werewolves now? I didn't sign up for this!"
I can think of numerous reasons why Duncan recruited those two in particular, but the main factors would be:
1. There's a blight on, so it's best not to be too strict lest you recruit one too few for the imminent and very needy cause.
2. Recruits aren't exactly crawling out of the woodwork. The number who come entreating to join (Jory) or who are promising and in a predicament that facilitates recruitment (Daveth) are few, and Duncan is only one headhunter out doing the recruitment for all of Ferelden (as far as I can tell). He takes who he can get and deals with it as it goes along.
3. That's just how it's done. You can't know on the face of it if a recruit is going to chicken out or fail the chalice num-num test. You just keep plodding "ever forward," as Duncan says, and hope for the best. Ultimately it doesn't come down to selecting a candidate with all the particular, precise qualifications already ascertained or even ascertainable. That said, Duncan risks a Theirin, a Cousland, and an Aeducan on that gamble. But it's a gamble all the same and can't be helped. (I always imagine he could give some sort of advice before handing over the chalice, like "Be strong. You will need to muster all of your being to resist the corruption of the taint." Something to explain the success stories other than a dice roll (or scripted plot device), but, oh, well.)
And Jory isn't too bad. He's your typical Lvl 3 two-handed warrior and seems earnest enough, albeit with that sense of entitlement to have Wardenhood (or whatever other honors) presented to him just because he feels he deserves it. I can't imagine how he won the Redcliffe tourny though. At the Provings it's always the two-handers that are easiest to defeat- those long swings opening them up for exploit. I can only picture a computer-generated set of one-on-one battles in which random dumb luck wins it fir him.
But despite his trepidation in the Korcari, they aren't exactly a safe place, as we know, so it's not as if he had no reason to fret, particularly as he hadn't yet been informed of Alistair's non-existent darkspawn sensing powers to know that Alistair would be able to not sense nearby darkspawn for them. (Daveth's "We may be killed, but at least we'll be watned about it first" is one of the funniest lines in the game...) And for the remainder of the Korcari effort he never turns and bolts like a Loghain, not even when facing a witch which he thinks will turn him into a newt. It was only the Joining where he really showed his cowardice. And at that point it hardly matters if he were to have survived the spawny num-num juice: he'd likely have shied from plenty of other gruesome tasks as well. "You mean I have to fight werewolves now? I didn't sign up for this!"
#8
Posté 08 mai 2013 - 09:10
Corker
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Bhryaen wrote...
It was only the Joining where he really showed his cowardice. And at that point it hardly matters if he were to have survived the spawny num-num juice: he'd likely have shied from plenty of other gruesome tasks as well. "You mean I have to fight werewolves now? I didn't sign up for this!"
I'd disagree. Ser Jory specifically declines the chalice because it's not an enemy he can defeat with his sword. When he can attack something - a darkspawn, a Witch of the Wilds - he feels like he has a measure of control over his fate. He's confident in his skills and as long as he can use them, he seems brave. When he's asked to gamble his life in a situation he has zero control over, he balks and tries to turn it back into a combat situation.
If he'd somehow survived, the quest I'd use as his crisis point would probably be the Gauntlet. Unless you had his Approval high enough, I don't think he'd voluntarily strip off his arms and armor and pass through the fire - it's another situation where he's asked to give up control. But werewolves? Psh, bring it.
#9
Posté 08 mai 2013 - 11:45
Nyxanna
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Guys stop talking like you have any clue whatsoever about what it takes to survive the ritual and please stop pretending like the ritual is some kind of magic trick that only gods can pass, please.
Any real warrior who dedicates his life to fighting and combat will and should pass the test. Jory is not. I could not give a **** less what you read about his lore
It's made up. Get that into your heads. I am talking about what we experience in the game and this guy you meet in the game is not and does not act anything like a knight or anyone who has won a tournament. You don't win a tournament by being some dumb meatshield who thinks about running away the second he "doesn't have control". This is not what any knight in this goddamn game acts like so stop posting if you will keep going on about some crap some lazy guy wrote together.
The only reason I accept is that Duncan wasn't picky because he needed recruits but again, this is bull**** since he is so eager on recruiting you. In the dwarf origin he even runs into the deep roads WITHOUT any recruit. It was RNG that he got you at all. If he was so desperate he would have taken anyone, even a castless before leaving orz.
This part of the game would certainly would be a lot better if they had actually done something with those 2. They could have turned their relationship into a good strong relationship and turned them into a funny duo, that die on the battlefield instead of dying for.. what? No, I don't want to hear any bull**** about making the player feel like he/she is the strongest and seriously, what a complete joke. Grey Wardens aren't about being stronger than another, they are all equal in paying the price and letting knights and whatever die just to show that a .... 19 year old noble girl is stronger than them is completely pathetic and utter crap.
Any real warrior who dedicates his life to fighting and combat will and should pass the test. Jory is not. I could not give a **** less what you read about his lore
It's made up. Get that into your heads. I am talking about what we experience in the game and this guy you meet in the game is not and does not act anything like a knight or anyone who has won a tournament. You don't win a tournament by being some dumb meatshield who thinks about running away the second he "doesn't have control". This is not what any knight in this goddamn game acts like so stop posting if you will keep going on about some crap some lazy guy wrote together.
The only reason I accept is that Duncan wasn't picky because he needed recruits but again, this is bull**** since he is so eager on recruiting you. In the dwarf origin he even runs into the deep roads WITHOUT any recruit. It was RNG that he got you at all. If he was so desperate he would have taken anyone, even a castless before leaving orz.
This part of the game would certainly would be a lot better if they had actually done something with those 2. They could have turned their relationship into a good strong relationship and turned them into a funny duo, that die on the battlefield instead of dying for.. what? No, I don't want to hear any bull**** about making the player feel like he/she is the strongest and seriously, what a complete joke. Grey Wardens aren't about being stronger than another, they are all equal in paying the price and letting knights and whatever die just to show that a .... 19 year old noble girl is stronger than them is completely pathetic and utter crap.
#10
Guest_Faerunner_*
Posté 08 mai 2013 - 11:52
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Nyxanna wrote...
Guys stop talking like you have any clue whatsoever about what it takes to survive the ritual and please stop pretending like the ritual is some kind of magic trick that only gods can pass, please.
And you do know? It's all up for interpretation and people are interpreting. Settle it down.
You ask a question then throw a raging hissy fit when people don't give the answers you want to read?Any real warrior who dedicates his life to fighting and combat will and should pass the test. Jory is not. I could not give a **** less what you read about his lore
Modifié par Faerunner, 08 mai 2013 - 11:54 .
#11
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 12:04
Nyxanna
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Because I find it completely absurd how you eat into everything BioWare decides to write as background for the characters. Learn to criticize instead of treating this made up text as bible. People are so fond of this game that it is unthinkable for them to possibly disagree with something they did with a character it seems. Jory acts like he is a dumb farmer son who has never held a sword. What people say about himself losing his cool because of unown enemies does not even actually make sense. If you win a tournament you have tons of confidence in your skill no matter what you fight, especially since he knew he was becoming a Grey Warden, not some joke who slaughters unarmed.
And yes compared to some people here I think I know better about the ritual. Most, again, eat into anything and tell themselves that god himself rolls a dice and if he feels like it he lets you survive. They both didn't act like they were confident or experienced and they shouldn't have been recruited in the first place.
And yes compared to some people here I think I know better about the ritual. Most, again, eat into anything and tell themselves that god himself rolls a dice and if he feels like it he lets you survive. They both didn't act like they were confident or experienced and they shouldn't have been recruited in the first place.
#12
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 12:09
thats1evildude
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Nyxanna wrote...
Any real warrior who dedicates his life to fighting and combat will and should pass the test. Jory is not.
So why did Mhairi die? She was a far stronger warrior than Jory and very confident in her abilities.
For that matter, why did Anders live?
Modifié par thats1evildude, 09 mai 2013 - 12:16 .
#13
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 12:17
Riverdaleswhiteflash
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In one breath, Nyxanna wrote...
Guys stop talking like you have any clue whatsoever about what it takes to survive the ritual
In the other...
Any real warrior who dedicates his life to fighting and combat will and should pass the test.
You don't win a tournament by being some dumb meatshield who thinks about running away the second he "doesn't have control". This is not what any knight in this goddamn game acts like so stop posting if you will keep going on about some crap some lazy guy wrote together.
Hey, we don't see the other knights being faced with the Joining. (Unless Loghain counts as a knight.) Point is, the other knights usually show their courage in situations where there's something they're actually fighting. Even if that something is absolutely insanely terrifying, they still have some idea what they're doing. Jory does that too, even to the point of keeping his cool when faced with Flemeth, then he gets told to drink a ridiculously lethal cocktail of Taint and lyrium.
The only reason I accept is that Duncan wasn't picky because he needed recruits but again, this is bull**** since he is so eager on recruiting you. In the dwarf origin he even runs into the deep roads WITHOUT any recruit. It was RNG that he got you at all. If he was so desperate he would have taken anyone, even a castless before leaving orz.
He could have gone back afterwards, if you hadn't shown up. In the absence of another likely recruit, I think he probably would have.
This part of the game would certainly would be a lot better if they had actually done something with those 2. They could have turned their relationship into a good strong relationship and turned them into a funny duo, that die on the battlefield instead of dying for.. what? No, I don't want to hear any bull**** about making the player feel like he/she is the strongest and seriously, what a complete joke. Grey Wardens aren't about being stronger than another, they are all equal in paying the price and letting knights and whatever die just to show that a .... 19 year old noble girl is stronger than them is completely pathetic and utter crap.
We never see that Jory was too weak to survive. In fact, I think he had some chance. But we never see that, because having made the point that the Joining is lethal, Bioware wanted to make clear why the PC was accepting the railroading into taking it. In short, they're not trying to stoke your ego; they're trying to scare the crap out of you.
What people say about himself losing his cool because of unown enemies does not even actually make sense. If you win a tournament you have tons of confidence in your skill no matter what you fight, especially since he knew he was becoming a Grey Warden, not some joke who slaughters unarmed.
A: Winning a tournament does not necessarily mean you can handle unknown enemies. What it means is that you can beat enemies armed roughly as well as you are in a fair, nonlethal fight.
B: That's actually not what we're saying, either. Jory handled himself reasonably well in the actual fighting, and only lost his cool when told to drink poison. Winning a tournament does very little to help with that.
Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 09 mai 2013 - 12:27 .
#14
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 12:25
Lavaeolus
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Okay, I'm reading your posts, and so far you've just criticised Jory. I always got the feeling Jory was sort of pushed upon Duncan, with that tournament; were circumstances different, Duncan may have flat-out rejected him. But the man was good enough with a sword, and wanted to join the Wardens. With such low numbers, best to try him.So why did he recruit Daveth and Jory? They never ever show any strengths
Daveth is easy to defend, especially if you know Duncan's backstory. Daveth proved himself a good pickpocket -- keep in mind Duncan is an experienced Grey Warden and also lived previously as a rogue, being caught redhanded is not as bad as it seems. If he was doing good, Duncan probably would've known what usually excellent signs to look for. Although Daveth seems pretty light-hearted, any in-depth conversation reveals he can deeply understand the need to take out the Blight -- a bloody good thing for any Grey Warden. Duncan would've, no doubt, identified with Daveth, as he had a similar origin and a similar personality; they're pretty much parallels of each other.
Finally, and most importantly, Daveth was going to certain death otherwise. Duncan is a good man, though one willing to make great sacrifices against the darkspawn (hence Jory's possible recruitment, at the risk of his death). He recruits Alistair for similar reasons, and if he can save someone's life while simultaneously getting them to fight darkspawn, all the better.
Modifié par Mr Maniac, 09 mai 2013 - 12:26 .
#15
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 12:40
Bhryaen
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Well... maybe so. But he says the line about needing an enemy he can see before Duncan shows up with the num-num juice. When the chalice is presented (after seeing Daveth fall), his protest instead is "There is no glory in this!" He sees Daveth's death-by-num-num-juice as lacking in the "glory" he thought he'd be likely to bring back home to the Mrs and Junior. (Which is so wrong: Daveth died a hero rather than a mere convict.) So I see his primary failing not so much being a selectivity about the sorts of challenges his fear will permit him to face but instead being an inability to adjust to the difference between his preconceptions about what Wardenhood entails and the reality of Wardenhood. In that way cowardice perhaps isn't the right term, but it's a factor.
I factor in that he does complete the blood-retrieval and treaty-acquisition despite his insistence on returning to camp, but I also factor in his insistence on returning to camp. It seems like a steady progression of dismayal regarding his recruitment. Initially he's miffed that the tourney wasn't enough to get an official GW Badge and Secret Warden Decoder Ring. Plus he thinks there should be no secrets, already knowing how better to run the Wardens. Then he doesn't like risking dying in battle for mere blood vials and treaties. Well, he doesn't say that, but that's what they'd be doing, and he objects. Then he has to face witches- definitely not part of his childhood fantasies of Wardenhood. And things are looking more and more strange when they're to meet for some secret ritual, so he quibbles with Daveth over whether it's worth it even to risk dying for the Gray Warden cause at all- enter his "I like to have my enemies all lined up nicely like in my fantasies (and my tournament competitors), not something I have to actually struggle with." OK, so he didn't say that either exactly, but I hear that when he says, "I prefer an enemy I can see." Oh, yeah? Well, I prefer a 7- figure salary for doing nothing more than pushing a button once a day, but, well...
And the last straw for him comes when a big bowl o' darkspawn num-nums arrives and Daveth dies some weird, horrible, painful eyeball-thing death in front of him from drinking it. "No, no, this unanticipated adversity stuff isn't what I signed up for! I signed up for a big tournament match with evil where I'd be allowed to fight 3rd lvl monsters and triumph and then be sent back home every so often to show my family the trophies!" It's a moment comparable to Lilly discovering Jowan's a blood mage. "You're not the man I thought you were!" So she disowns him. But in Jory's case he draws a weapon. "I'm not joining your crazy cult!" Duncan/ Alistair are now the enemy. He'd rather die than be part of a Wardenhood that doesn't look all rosy and glorious (and oh-so-normal) and corresponding to what brave, brave (in his head anyway) Ser Jory thinks it should be. That wasn't the fight he signed up for.
I really like the line we can say afterward. "Nothing you told me up to this point prepared me for that." It's so true, but unlike Jory we choose to face it head-on rather than cower or draw blades (because it's not an option hahaha).
Cailan was similar in that he proceeded according to a fantasy about glorious battle winning the day. The main difference was that the king got to have it his way: he got to stride out onto an open battlefield and fight evil that was more or less within the range of his fighting ability and get a chance at accolades for it. Cailan may have made a poor Warden recruit as well, unable to accept the actual sacrifice and range of effort it entails.
But that's why I'd still contend Jory would be daunted by werewolves as well- anything out of the ordinary. "It was supposed to just be about presenting treaties, not all this other stuff! There is no glory in fighting werewolves!" But I could also be persuaded that, if our Warden were there to take him by the nose and toss him into fighting a couple packs of werewolves and prevail, he might suddenly discover that it's doable after all, start getting used to it, and in a fit of overcompensation during the next fight he yells, "Bring it on!" And then a sylvan would attack him and it would start all over...
Well... maybe so. But he says the line about needing an enemy he can see before Duncan shows up with the num-num juice. When the chalice is presented (after seeing Daveth fall), his protest instead is "There is no glory in this!" He sees Daveth's death-by-num-num-juice as lacking in the "glory" he thought he'd be likely to bring back home to the Mrs and Junior. (Which is so wrong: Daveth died a hero rather than a mere convict.) So I see his primary failing not so much being a selectivity about the sorts of challenges his fear will permit him to face but instead being an inability to adjust to the difference between his preconceptions about what Wardenhood entails and the reality of Wardenhood. In that way cowardice perhaps isn't the right term, but it's a factor.
I factor in that he does complete the blood-retrieval and treaty-acquisition despite his insistence on returning to camp, but I also factor in his insistence on returning to camp. It seems like a steady progression of dismayal regarding his recruitment. Initially he's miffed that the tourney wasn't enough to get an official GW Badge and Secret Warden Decoder Ring. Plus he thinks there should be no secrets, already knowing how better to run the Wardens. Then he doesn't like risking dying in battle for mere blood vials and treaties. Well, he doesn't say that, but that's what they'd be doing, and he objects. Then he has to face witches- definitely not part of his childhood fantasies of Wardenhood. And things are looking more and more strange when they're to meet for some secret ritual, so he quibbles with Daveth over whether it's worth it even to risk dying for the Gray Warden cause at all- enter his "I like to have my enemies all lined up nicely like in my fantasies (and my tournament competitors), not something I have to actually struggle with." OK, so he didn't say that either exactly, but I hear that when he says, "I prefer an enemy I can see." Oh, yeah? Well, I prefer a 7- figure salary for doing nothing more than pushing a button once a day, but, well...
And the last straw for him comes when a big bowl o' darkspawn num-nums arrives and Daveth dies some weird, horrible, painful eyeball-thing death in front of him from drinking it. "No, no, this unanticipated adversity stuff isn't what I signed up for! I signed up for a big tournament match with evil where I'd be allowed to fight 3rd lvl monsters and triumph and then be sent back home every so often to show my family the trophies!" It's a moment comparable to Lilly discovering Jowan's a blood mage. "You're not the man I thought you were!" So she disowns him. But in Jory's case he draws a weapon. "I'm not joining your crazy cult!" Duncan/ Alistair are now the enemy. He'd rather die than be part of a Wardenhood that doesn't look all rosy and glorious (and oh-so-normal) and corresponding to what brave, brave (in his head anyway) Ser Jory thinks it should be. That wasn't the fight he signed up for.
I really like the line we can say afterward. "Nothing you told me up to this point prepared me for that." It's so true, but unlike Jory we choose to face it head-on rather than cower or draw blades (because it's not an option hahaha).
Cailan was similar in that he proceeded according to a fantasy about glorious battle winning the day. The main difference was that the king got to have it his way: he got to stride out onto an open battlefield and fight evil that was more or less within the range of his fighting ability and get a chance at accolades for it. Cailan may have made a poor Warden recruit as well, unable to accept the actual sacrifice and range of effort it entails.
But that's why I'd still contend Jory would be daunted by werewolves as well- anything out of the ordinary. "It was supposed to just be about presenting treaties, not all this other stuff! There is no glory in fighting werewolves!" But I could also be persuaded that, if our Warden were there to take him by the nose and toss him into fighting a couple packs of werewolves and prevail, he might suddenly discover that it's doable after all, start getting used to it, and in a fit of overcompensation during the next fight he yells, "Bring it on!" And then a sylvan would attack him and it would start all over...
#16
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 01:42
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Nyxanna wrote...
Jory acts like he is a dumb farmer son who has never held a sword. What people say about himself losing his cool because of unown enemies does not even actually make sense. If you win a tournament you have tons of confidence in your skill no matter what you fight
I don't care how fearless you think you are, darkspawn are not some normal other knight on the battlefield, and besides he's fighting for more than just himself at this point. He talks about how continuing to fight is hard, because it takes him away from his family. I can't imagine the first thing going through someone's head (especially a husband, and new father) when you learn that your main enemy in life is going to be something that nearly destroyed the dwarves, and rendered a nation completely inhabitable.
And yes compared to some people here I think I know better about the ritual. Most, again, eat into anything and tell themselves that god himself rolls a dice and if he feels like it he lets you survive.
Okay... but most people don't go chomping down into something when told before hand that it's poison.
They both didn't act like they were confident or experienced and they shouldn't have been recruited in the first place.
To echo others, Duncan didn't have the luxury of picking and dividing all these recruits at his disposal. He simply had to choose the people he came across, and the people he could take away without drawing too much attention. For example, that's one of the main reasons (playing as a Cousland) he didn't take the young Cousland, because he was highborn, and didn't want to bump heads with a family of that stature. That's why he came initially looking for Ser Gilmore.
Modifié par -TC1989-, 09 mai 2013 - 01:43 .
#17
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 03:40
Shadow of Light Dragon
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The point of Daveth was to show that not everyone survives the darkspawn, even one who has proven (in the Wilds) he has the combat ability to kill them.
The point of Jory was to show that the Wardens don't allow people to back out of the Joining on the basis of secrets being spilled.
The point of Mhairi was to counterbalance all the other Joinings in Awakening, and to show that even people who willingly join, have a good heart and bravely drink can still die.
In the story where Duncan recruits Alistair, Alistair was not the victor of the tournament held that day. Duncan said he wasn't looking for the strongest or the toughest, he was after something else.
Whatever that thing is, Nyxanna, I don't think you have it pegged.
The point of Jory was to show that the Wardens don't allow people to back out of the Joining on the basis of secrets being spilled.
The point of Mhairi was to counterbalance all the other Joinings in Awakening, and to show that even people who willingly join, have a good heart and bravely drink can still die.
In the story where Duncan recruits Alistair, Alistair was not the victor of the tournament held that day. Duncan said he wasn't looking for the strongest or the toughest, he was after something else.
Whatever that thing is, Nyxanna, I don't think you have it pegged.
#18
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 06:04
TEWR
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[quote]Nyxanna wrote...
They say Grey Wardens only recruit the best and elite and Duncan himself was only able to recruit even in whatever place you started there were hundreds of others.
So why did he recruit Daveth and Jory? They never ever show any strengths.[/quote]
Daveth did. Daveth was a pickpocket -- as Duncan once was -- and quick on his feet. Those are useful traits for the Wardens. Daveth's connection to the seedy underbelly of Denerim could've proved useful, particularly in terms of connections (if he had any) but also from acquisition of goods.
Try stealing at camp and fail. Then talk to Duncan. A certain option prompts him to say Grey Wardens use a wide variety of talents for their duties.
[quote]First thing Jory does when in the wilds is say that they should go back simply because there was a soldier lying on the floor.[/quote]
A soldier whose entire group of men was taken completely by surprise by the Darkspawn and he was the lone survivor.
You find dozens of soldier corpses in the Wilds, and there were fifty Darkspawn in the forest when you head out there. Berserking Hurlocks are known to be a match for numerous opponents at a time, and Genlocks are known to rise from the ground itself when they strike their foes.
The Darkspawn are not like average enemies. Even the Dwarves consider their war with them to be a neverending nightmare, one they face everyday.
[qote]You would assume that wherever he came from he would have some experience fighting and has seen dying people before but this alone makes him want to go back. [/quote]
He was a soldier, but there's no indication that he's actually fought in battles before. Tourneys, yes, but that's a completely different matter. Ferelden has been at peace for... oh... 30 years.
And Jory's about... oh... in his thirties.
So no... he's not going to have seen people dying from grievous injuries. At least not up close, and not concerning the Darkspawn, since he's never seen them before.
[quote]Daveth doesn't say anything bad but then again he doesn't do or say anything that would indicate that he has balls either.[/quote]
I'd say drinking a fistful of poison knowing full well you could die of your own choice -- instead of being forced to drink it -- is pretty ballsy, especially since he understands that the Blight needs to be stopped no matter what.
I'd say stealing from Duncan is also pretty ballsy, since that was what got him noticed by Duncan to begin with.
[quote]Did BioWare mess up here? [/quote]
No. Duncan didn't have the luxury of taking people of high import, since the position in Ferelden was already in a fragile state. While Teyrn Cousland had offered the Warden-Commander a bed to rest in for the time, he wasn't about to press the issue of recruiting the second son of Bryce.
The only reason he does is because he absolutely needs a recruit, Howe's basically purged the entire castle, and Duncan's initial prospect Ser Gilmore is no longer a viable option.
Similarly, he is not about to take a Dwarf Noble right off the bat because, while the Wardens' position in Orzammar is held in high regard, the DN is the second son of the king and -- per the whispers -- the one bound to take the throne upon the king's death.
So he looks for people that are low enough to not cause a fuss if they leave yet are capable enough to have a chance of passing the Joining.
They say Grey Wardens only recruit the best and elite and Duncan himself was only able to recruit even in whatever place you started there were hundreds of others.
So why did he recruit Daveth and Jory? They never ever show any strengths.[/quote]
Daveth did. Daveth was a pickpocket -- as Duncan once was -- and quick on his feet. Those are useful traits for the Wardens. Daveth's connection to the seedy underbelly of Denerim could've proved useful, particularly in terms of connections (if he had any) but also from acquisition of goods.
Try stealing at camp and fail. Then talk to Duncan. A certain option prompts him to say Grey Wardens use a wide variety of talents for their duties.
[quote]First thing Jory does when in the wilds is say that they should go back simply because there was a soldier lying on the floor.[/quote]
A soldier whose entire group of men was taken completely by surprise by the Darkspawn and he was the lone survivor.
You find dozens of soldier corpses in the Wilds, and there were fifty Darkspawn in the forest when you head out there. Berserking Hurlocks are known to be a match for numerous opponents at a time, and Genlocks are known to rise from the ground itself when they strike their foes.
The Darkspawn are not like average enemies. Even the Dwarves consider their war with them to be a neverending nightmare, one they face everyday.
[qote]You would assume that wherever he came from he would have some experience fighting and has seen dying people before but this alone makes him want to go back. [/quote]
He was a soldier, but there's no indication that he's actually fought in battles before. Tourneys, yes, but that's a completely different matter. Ferelden has been at peace for... oh... 30 years.
And Jory's about... oh... in his thirties.
So no... he's not going to have seen people dying from grievous injuries. At least not up close, and not concerning the Darkspawn, since he's never seen them before.
[quote]Daveth doesn't say anything bad but then again he doesn't do or say anything that would indicate that he has balls either.[/quote]
I'd say drinking a fistful of poison knowing full well you could die of your own choice -- instead of being forced to drink it -- is pretty ballsy, especially since he understands that the Blight needs to be stopped no matter what.
I'd say stealing from Duncan is also pretty ballsy, since that was what got him noticed by Duncan to begin with.
[quote]Did BioWare mess up here? [/quote]
No. Duncan didn't have the luxury of taking people of high import, since the position in Ferelden was already in a fragile state. While Teyrn Cousland had offered the Warden-Commander a bed to rest in for the time, he wasn't about to press the issue of recruiting the second son of Bryce.
The only reason he does is because he absolutely needs a recruit, Howe's basically purged the entire castle, and Duncan's initial prospect Ser Gilmore is no longer a viable option.
Similarly, he is not about to take a Dwarf Noble right off the bat because, while the Wardens' position in Orzammar is held in high regard, the DN is the second son of the king and -- per the whispers -- the one bound to take the throne upon the king's death.
So he looks for people that are low enough to not cause a fuss if they leave yet are capable enough to have a chance of passing the Joining.
#19
Posté 09 mai 2013 - 09:21
wiccame
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Rhiordan said at the landsmeet...anyone with the skill and mettle are welcome to join (or words to that effect) so I am thinking anyone that shows strength and other traits that would make them an ideal candidate is chosen to try the joining.
Its their bodies abililty to be able to resist or withstand the taint and survive long enough to be useful, that proves they are Grey warden material.
So obviously Jory and Daveth had those traits of strength and resolve for Duncan to have picked them in the first place. Its just the initial abilities that got them noticed.
Its their bodies abililty to be able to resist or withstand the taint and survive long enough to be useful, that proves they are Grey warden material.
So obviously Jory and Daveth had those traits of strength and resolve for Duncan to have picked them in the first place. Its just the initial abilities that got them noticed.
Modifié par wiccame, 09 mai 2013 - 09:23 .
#20
Posté 20 mai 2013 - 05:08
BlazingSpeed
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LilPancho86 wrote...
Ser Jory won a tournament, but that is a test of physical combat that is heavily dependent on the relative skill of all its combatants. There is a guarantee that there will be a winner, and the sample size of those involved surely doesn't represent the best of all Ferelden.
That's what I wonder about I'm not really sure about the time frame since no one at the Cousland Castle mentions Jory's grand melee tournament but it seemed like all of the best soldiers were already on thier way to Ostagar.
Well except for Ser Gilmore maybe and yeah differnet companions for the Warden recruits Wilds fetch quest would have been nice.
#21
Posté 20 mai 2013 - 05:42
Corker
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Bhryaen wrote...
So I see his primary failing not so much being a selectivity about the sorts of challenges his fear will permit him to face but instead being an inability to adjust to the difference between his preconceptions about what Wardenhood entails and the reality of Wardenhood. In that way cowardice perhaps isn't the right term, but it's a factor.
How 'bout we agree that he demonstrates both traits and shake on it?
Plus he thinks there should be no secrets, already knowing how better to run the Wardens.
...okay, I'm actually with Jory on this one.
Okay, I know, I get that "we have to protect the Wardens from the horrible ignorant masses who would pillory us for being tainted even though they put up with us recruiting murderers and blood mages and stuff" but I get really tired, really quickly of the time-honored RPG tradition of witholding information from the player for 'surprise' later. About one time in ten, it makes sense and doesn't feel forced. The other nine times... 
#22
Posté 20 mai 2013 - 08:12
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@corker
But how will the Gray Wardens maintain their cult status if they don't require you to leave your family and friends, think of nothing but cult business, and, above all, keep all discussion of cult matters in-house? You can't keep cult converts if they can leave once they get offered the Secret Cult Decoder Ring.
No, now that you mention it, you're right. Well, maybe not so much about the not pillorying thing, since, really? Would the masses bring the pitchforks? Though, yeah, certain irreconcilable contradictions continue to arise in the DAO "mistrusted" status of Wardens... And I don't mind the "surprise" thingy in games, fun to guess at and work to resolve anticipatorily... But then again I've only played a handful of RPGs and all had fun surprises. ("Oh, and you're a god. You OK with that?" says BG.)
But a better reason for an end to the Gray Warden cult secrecy would be that it makes more sense to make very well and widely known and far greater understood among the horrible, ignorant masses every last one of those specific sacrifices entailed in Wardenhood. If people knew, it would likely weed out the Jorys before they can become unwitting Duncan-kill-XP and instead possibly attract the right sorts who would come to it openly and without misgivings or misapprehension. Awakenings shows that that sort of recruitment is more than possible. Sigrun was a perfect candidate and felt very honored while knowing exactly what she was doing and without being threatened after she knew.
I mean, the whole justification provided is because no one would do it if they knew what it entailed, but why wouldn't there be such folks to do it, willing to sacrifice their lives- or really just limit their lives to regularly fighting broodmomspawning and to a somewhat earlier death- for the sake and cause of saving the world? No one would volunteer? Now there's bad faith. Gray Wardenhood has to be tricked into people every generation? All the pertinent knowledge needs to be dangerously limited to whatever small troupe has been duped into it lately? Most people are oblivious to the Warden cause up until a blight when "Oh, yeah, I guess Wardens have something to do with fixing this, no?" But Wardens are essential because they're (relatively) immune to the taint's corruption (as are all their DAO companions apparently hehehe) and are needed to kill the Archpurpledragon... oh, and that spidey sense they've got... sometimes... sort of... So why not let people know why the Wardens are essential rather than expecting the masses to just "trust us"? "No, really. We're sooo important. Amazing, right? We sooo are. We can't tell you why or anything, but it's big. Reaallly big. You understand..." Not the best way to overcome the alleged "mistrust of Wardens" I've heard so much about. Particularly given the sorts we tend to come from, as you mention, trust won't be the first impulse. Respect is what needs to be won, and that only makes sense if people understand the process correctly.
Come to think of it, the Wardens are comprised a bit like the riffraff of the Legion of the Dead, though a bit more motley a crew.
But I still think Jory was just lost in his fantasies of what Wardenhood is "supposed to be" according to his uninformed opinion. Oh, OK, fine, a bit of a scaredycat too... Not that Duncan or Alistair or any other nameless Warden at Ostagar ever tried to nip his delusions in the bud... Better to just bring him to the Holy Bait-and-Switch Ceremony and knife 'im if he resists. Sounds like a plan. What's our motto, Wynne? *speaking solemnly, hands on hearts* "We and all who have come before us and will ever come after us are devoted protectors of the- what? You're not drinking the Koolaid?!! *kill, kill* Oh, and for the rest of you's, here's some blood to remember this. Wear it around your necks. Won't give the wrong impression to the common rabble at all..."
But how will the Gray Wardens maintain their cult status if they don't require you to leave your family and friends, think of nothing but cult business, and, above all, keep all discussion of cult matters in-house? You can't keep cult converts if they can leave once they get offered the Secret Cult Decoder Ring.
No, now that you mention it, you're right. Well, maybe not so much about the not pillorying thing, since, really? Would the masses bring the pitchforks? Though, yeah, certain irreconcilable contradictions continue to arise in the DAO "mistrusted" status of Wardens... And I don't mind the "surprise" thingy in games, fun to guess at and work to resolve anticipatorily... But then again I've only played a handful of RPGs and all had fun surprises. ("Oh, and you're a god. You OK with that?" says BG.)
But a better reason for an end to the Gray Warden cult secrecy would be that it makes more sense to make very well and widely known and far greater understood among the horrible, ignorant masses every last one of those specific sacrifices entailed in Wardenhood. If people knew, it would likely weed out the Jorys before they can become unwitting Duncan-kill-XP and instead possibly attract the right sorts who would come to it openly and without misgivings or misapprehension. Awakenings shows that that sort of recruitment is more than possible. Sigrun was a perfect candidate and felt very honored while knowing exactly what she was doing and without being threatened after she knew.
I mean, the whole justification provided is because no one would do it if they knew what it entailed, but why wouldn't there be such folks to do it, willing to sacrifice their lives- or really just limit their lives to regularly fighting broodmomspawning and to a somewhat earlier death- for the sake and cause of saving the world? No one would volunteer? Now there's bad faith. Gray Wardenhood has to be tricked into people every generation? All the pertinent knowledge needs to be dangerously limited to whatever small troupe has been duped into it lately? Most people are oblivious to the Warden cause up until a blight when "Oh, yeah, I guess Wardens have something to do with fixing this, no?" But Wardens are essential because they're (relatively) immune to the taint's corruption (as are all their DAO companions apparently hehehe) and are needed to kill the Archpurpledragon... oh, and that spidey sense they've got... sometimes... sort of... So why not let people know why the Wardens are essential rather than expecting the masses to just "trust us"? "No, really. We're sooo important. Amazing, right? We sooo are. We can't tell you why or anything, but it's big. Reaallly big. You understand..." Not the best way to overcome the alleged "mistrust of Wardens" I've heard so much about. Particularly given the sorts we tend to come from, as you mention, trust won't be the first impulse. Respect is what needs to be won, and that only makes sense if people understand the process correctly.
Come to think of it, the Wardens are comprised a bit like the riffraff of the Legion of the Dead, though a bit more motley a crew.
But I still think Jory was just lost in his fantasies of what Wardenhood is "supposed to be" according to his uninformed opinion. Oh, OK, fine, a bit of a scaredycat too... Not that Duncan or Alistair or any other nameless Warden at Ostagar ever tried to nip his delusions in the bud... Better to just bring him to the Holy Bait-and-Switch Ceremony and knife 'im if he resists. Sounds like a plan. What's our motto, Wynne? *speaking solemnly, hands on hearts* "We and all who have come before us and will ever come after us are devoted protectors of the- what? You're not drinking the Koolaid?!! *kill, kill* Oh, and for the rest of you's, here's some blood to remember this. Wear it around your necks. Won't give the wrong impression to the common rabble at all..."
#23
Posté 21 mai 2013 - 11:55
WhiteKnyght
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Jory: He was a knight in service to Arl Eamon who worked hard to impress Duncan.
Daveth: I think he reminded Duncan of himself as a boy. For those who don't know, Duncan, in his youth, was a street thief like Daveth, and got recruited into the Wardens by besting one of them(killing the commander's fiancee). Daveth essentially did the same thing - he got the better of Duncan by picking his pocket and managing to get away from him. It's just that the guards intervened.
Daveth: I think he reminded Duncan of himself as a boy. For those who don't know, Duncan, in his youth, was a street thief like Daveth, and got recruited into the Wardens by besting one of them(killing the commander's fiancee). Daveth essentially did the same thing - he got the better of Duncan by picking his pocket and managing to get away from him. It's just that the guards intervened.
