1470 réponses à ce sujet

[Morlath]

I wonder if video games are the only medium where an ending to a story is considered "broken" and needs "fixing"...

More to the point. It says something about video gamers that they think they've got a right to demand people change their own creations because of the "broken" ending.

[GreyLycanTrope]

robertthebard wrote...
It would have been funny.  Not as funny as some of the posts subsequent to mine, but funny nonetheless.

As to my "crusade", I'm over it.  I didn't need a mod, no matter what it's called.  I didn't need to spend months on the forums, or a year + trying to convince people that don't want to be convinced that their opinions are invalid.  So, I guess my "crusade" would simply be "get over it and move on"?    Everything that's going to be done to ME 3 is done, according to the developers.  There will be no more DLC, for SP anyway, not sure about MP, and I don't play enough that I'm going to look every week to see.  The endings did suck, but constantly ranting about them, or at people that found something in them that somebody else can't see isn't productive?  Could that be my "crusade"?  Are there any fresh arguments that I've missed, or is it a constant rehash of the same tired threads?

A statement which would carry more weight if you actually said something along those lines instead of ranting about MEHEM.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 09 mai 2013 - 02:54 .

[dreamgazer]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Or they could maybe try fixing the ending, for realz this time.

Who are they going to choose to satisfy, though, and who's to say the ending they spend their resources on will be received any better? Look at all the different camps and their ideals of how to "fix" or "maintain" the ending.  That's what they're walking into if they decide to craft a different ending.

[dreamgazer]

Morlath wrote...

I wonder if video games are the only medium where an ending to a story is considered "broken" and needs "fixing"...

No. Not at all. (laughs)

[EpicBoot2daFace]

I'd rather they focus on the new IP.

[jstme]

Morlath wrote...

I wonder if video games are the only medium where an ending to a story is considered "broken" and needs "fixing"...

More to the point. It says something about video gamers that they think they've got a right to demand people change their own creations because of the "broken" ending.

How many optional chapters to a book did you buy after book was released? Zero... 
Did you buy 15min long expansions to movies after watching the original? Nope...
Video games are the only medium where content can be released even after the original was released. So broken things CAN actually be fixed.
And consumers have every right to demand things to be changed. Creators have every right to ignore those demands.
It is really easy to understand unless you consider that calling yourself an artist suddenly casts some sort of immunity spell resulting in green wave that can magically simultaneously block all critique all other the galaxy. 

[SpamBot2000]

dreamgazer wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Or they could maybe try fixing the ending, for realz this time.

Who are they going to choose to satisfy, though, and who's to say the ending they spend their resources on will be received any better? Look at all the different camps and their ideals of how to "fix" or "maintain" the ending.  That's what they're walking into if they decide to craft a different ending.

Certainly can't reach consensus without trying. I would propose yanking the child with the ABC and having an option of official MEHEM-like epilogue or not, just finishing at "best seats in the house". Presumably the earlier endings would not be removed from the people who like 'em. And there you have it, country simple and minimally invasive.

Who's with me?

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 09 mai 2013 - 02:49 .

[robertthebard]

dsl08002 wrote...

And to be honest if it was a lesson learned wouldnt they have put a Little bit more effort in creating more DLC for ME3 and try to create more Closure.

No?  The game is over, the DLC is over, and it's time to move on.  They have done so.  What's next, rewrite the whole series to try to make everyone as happy as possible?  I mean, it's only a little bit more effort, right?

[TODD9999]

Morlath wrote...

I wonder if video games are the only medium where an ending to a story is considered "broken" and needs "fixing"...

More to the point. It says something about video gamers that they think they've got a right to demand people change their own creations because of the "broken" ending.

Personally, I don't think this is a "video games" issue.  This is one game, which had as its lynchpin the idea of player choice and influence on the setting.  Therefore, when people don't feel that their choices are adequately represented or allowed, or that they have not been allowed to influence the setting, they feel upset (or for any number of other reasons).

I've played games, read books, and watched movies with lackluster endings, but since they aren't really interactive (in the sense of being able to make choices and influence the setting), I just shrugged it off.  It was what it was.

Other people may have different opinions, but that's mine.

[Morlath]

jstme wrote...

How many optional chapters to a book did you buy after book was released? Zero... 
Did you buy 15min long expansions to movies after watching the original? Nope...
Video games are the only medium where content can be released even after the original was released. So broken things CAN actually be fixed.
And consumers have every right to demand things to be changed. Creators have every right to ignore those demands.
It is really easy to understand unless you consider that calling yourself an artist suddenly casts some sort of immunity spell resulting in green wave that can magically simultaneously block all critique all other the galaxy. 

- Authors are actually asked to write small novellas for anthology books and they tend write smaller side stories for their main series. An "extra chapter" to the main story arch if you will. And yes, I've bought some of these.

- Ever heard of a Director's Cut for a film? Movies can get released with extra scenes that were removed during the production of the original.

And there is a very big difference between something that is actually broken and something that either doesn't work from a story telling standpoint or is just extremely unpopular. An unpopular ending is not a broken ending, an story twist that you don't like is not a broken story.

What's easy to understand is people using their dislike for the ending as a way of attacking Bioware with attacks that, quite frankly, have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Majority of BSN - Dislikes/hates the ending of ME3.

This does not make ME3 broken as a story.

[robertthebard]

Greylycantrope wrote...

robertthebard wrote...
It would have been funny.  Not as funny as some of the posts subsequent to mine, but funny nonetheless.

As to my "crusade", I'm over it.  I didn't need a mod, no matter what it's called.  I didn't need to spend months on the forums, or a year + trying to convince people that don't want to be convinced that their opinions are invalid.  So, I guess my "crusade" would simply be "get over it and move on"?    Everything that's going to be done to ME 3 is done, according to the developers.  There will be no more DLC, for SP anyway, not sure about MP, and I don't play enough that I'm going to look every week to see.  The endings did suck, but constantly ranting about them, or at people that found something in them that somebody else can't see isn't productive?  Could that be my "crusade"?  Are there any fresh arguments that I've missed, or is it a constant rehash of the same tired threads?

A statement which would carry more weight if you actaully said something along those lines instead of ranting about MEHEM.

Sorry, did I strike a nerve or something?  You know, defending MEHEM doesn't do a lot for "I wasn't looking for a happy ending, and I don't sing it's praises every chance I get".  Quite the opposite really.  So in continuing to drag out the ending controversy, you don't think my post has anything to do with people dragging out the ending controversy?  Wow...

[drayfish]

robertthebard wrote...

dsl08002 wrote...

And to be honest if it was a lesson learned wouldnt they have put a Little bit more effort in creating more DLC for ME3 and try to create more Closure.

No?  The game is over, the DLC is over, and it's time to move on.  They have done so.  What's next, rewrite the whole series to try to make everyone as happy as possible?  I mean, it's only a little bit more effort, right?

Ah, good.

Well I'm glad my message about not oversimplifying other people's arguments to score a cheap, disingenuous point landed.

Well done.

Modifié par drayfish, 09 mai 2013 - 02:56 .

[Nitrocuban]

Morlath wrote...

I wonder if video games are the only medium where an ending to a story is considered "broken" and needs "fixing"...

You didn't watch LOST, did you?

[Morlath]

TODD9999 wrote...

Morlath wrote...

I wonder if video games are the only medium where an ending to a story is considered "broken" and needs "fixing"...

More to the point. It says something about video gamers that they think they've got a right to demand people change their own creations because of the "broken" ending.

Personally, I don't think this is a "video games" issue.  This is one game, which had as its lynchpin the idea of player choice and influence on the setting.  Therefore, when people don't feel that their choices are adequately represented or allowed, or that they have not been allowed to influence the setting, they feel upset (or for any number of other reasons).

I've played games, read books, and watched movies with lackluster endings, but since they aren't really interactive (in the sense of being able to make choices and influence the setting), I just shrugged it off.  It was what it was.

Other people may have different opinions, but that's mine.

And this is understandable. I don't personally agree in having an ending that takes into account player's choices throughout the game series (it IS a galatic war after all, there's not that many ways to end it) but this gripe is far from saying that the game is broken and needs fixing.

[Kel Riever]

Morlath wrote...

TODD9999 wrote...

Morlath wrote...

I wonder if video games are the only medium where an ending to a story is considered "broken" and needs "fixing"...

More to the point. It says something about video gamers that they think they've got a right to demand people change their own creations because of the "broken" ending.

Personally, I don't think this is a "video games" issue.  This is one game, which had as its lynchpin the idea of player choice and influence on the setting.  Therefore, when people don't feel that their choices are adequately represented or allowed, or that they have not been allowed to influence the setting, they feel upset (or for any number of other reasons).

I've played games, read books, and watched movies with lackluster endings, but since they aren't really interactive (in the sense of being able to make choices and influence the setting), I just shrugged it off.  It was what it was.

Other people may have different opinions, but that's mine.

And this is understandable. I don't personally agree in having an ending that takes into account player's choices throughout the game series (it IS a galatic war after all, there's not that many ways to end it) but this gripe is far from saying that the game is broken and needs fixing.

Nothing NEEDS fixing.  But damn if I am not going to laugh all over them for what they did.  Probably forever.  Because it is that bad.

[robertthebard]

drayfish wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

dsl08002 wrote...

And to be honest if it was a lesson learned wouldnt they have put a Little bit more effort in creating more DLC for ME3 and try to create more Closure.

No?  The game is over, the DLC is over, and it's time to move on.  They have done so.  What's next, rewrite the whole series to try to make everyone as happy as possible?  I mean, it's only a little bit more effort, right?

Ah, good.

Well I'm glad my message about not oversimplifying other people's arguments to score a cheap, disengenuous point landed.

Well done.

It was kind of cheap.  It was also supposed to be.  After all, anyone that knows anything about building a game knows "little bit more effort" is really not the truth.  BioWare established their position.  It doesn't matter if we agree, disagree or simply don't care, it's not going to change their minds.  Don't you think, if it truly was, it would have by now?  It's been over a year now.  Surely if they were going to get the hint, and "do just a little bit more" they would have, yes?  So no, the suggestion wasn't really one that required in depth discussion.  It's had it's in depth discussion over the last year, and while we got the EC, they stated they weren't doing anything else with it.  So it's not just a "If you'd really learned your lesson, you would bend over backwards to kiss my ass" post?  Because that's what it looks like to me.

[TheProtheans]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Honestly, I don't think people around here will be satisfied unless the creators and writers say "Sorry we are such idiots, how dare we end a story the way we want to. IT [or any other alternate ending] is real, but we can't release it into the game because EA is too evil to let it happen."

That's the vibe I get, at least.

Vibes are usually wrong, from my experience anyway.
Your vibes are a little ridiculous.

[jstme]

Morlath wrote...

jstme wrote...

How many optional chapters to a book did you buy after book was released? Zero... 
Did you buy 15min long expansions to movies after watching the original? Nope...
Video games are the only medium where content can be released even after the original was released. So broken things CAN actually be fixed.
And consumers have every right to demand things to be changed. Creators have every right to ignore those demands.
It is really easy to understand unless you consider that calling yourself an artist suddenly casts some sort of immunity spell resulting in green wave that can magically simultaneously block all critique all other the galaxy. 

- Authors are actually asked to write small novellas for anthology books and they tend write smaller side stories for their main series. An "extra chapter" to the main story arch if you will. And yes, I've bought some of these.

- Ever heard of a Director's Cut for a film? Movies can get released with extra scenes that were removed during the production of the original.

And there is a very big difference between something that is actually broken and something that either doesn't work from a story telling standpoint or is just extremely unpopular. An unpopular ending is not a broken ending, an story twist that you don't like is not a broken story.

What's easy to understand is people using their dislike for the ending as a way of attacking Bioware with attacks that, quite frankly, have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Majority of BSN - Dislikes/hates the ending of ME3.

This does not make ME3 broken as a story.

Director cuts (in which 0 new content for a film is created) or small stories (that are NOT additional chapters to a book but a different story) have nothing in common with DLCs , expansions or patches in video games.
As for ending - it was broken,there is no reason to argue about it.
See - EC. Story with broken ending = broken story.
I think that post-EC ending is broken too but your opinion can be different. What is clear however is that creators considered that original ending lacked content that provided closure and clarification.   

[Clayless]

jstme wrote...

Director cuts (in which 0 new content for a film is created) or small stories (that are NOT additional chapters to a book but a different story) have nothing in common with DLCs , expansions or patches in video games.
As for ending - it was broken,there is no reason to argue about it.
See - EC. Story with broken ending = broken story.
I think that post-EC ending is broken too but your opinion can be different. What is clear however is that creators considered that original ending lacked content that provided closure and clarification.  

Just to menion, videogames are the only medium where this can happen. I actually have a book downstairs that the author released an alternate non-canon ending for it 7 years after the book came out.

[GreyLycanTrope]

robertthebard wrote...
Sorry, did I strike a nerve or something?  You know, defending MEHEM doesn't do a lot for "I wasn't looking for a happy ending, and I don't sing it's praises every chance I get".  Quite the opposite really.  So in continuing to drag out the ending controversy, you don't think my post has anything to do with people dragging out the ending controversy?  Wow...

Did I come of as particularly upset? At what point was I singing it's praises? I was simply correcting some misconseptions about something you brought up:
"So the fact of the matter is, despite claims to the contrary, a lot of people "holding the line" were in fact looking for a happy ending, or the mod wouldn't be "successful" now would it?"
Only issue I have with this is that you're lumping all of us in a broad category which isn't factually accurate. You're also arguing about motivations people had for selecting the mod and why it was sucessful. You're in essence perpetuating the very controversy you're claiming to want to resolve by making generalisations and inviting further debate when people like myself take issue with said generlisations. So I'm simply pointing out that, 1) you have some misconceptions about why people selected MEHEM even when saying they didn't want a happy ending 2) if you want people to move on from the topic you're not going about it the right way.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 09 mai 2013 - 03:13 .

[drayfish]

robertthebard wrote...

drayfish wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

dsl08002 wrote...

And to be honest if it was a lesson learned wouldnt they have put a Little bit more effort in creating more DLC for ME3 and try to create more Closure.

No?  The game is over, the DLC is over, and it's time to move on.  They have done so.  What's next, rewrite the whole series to try to make everyone as happy as possible?  I mean, it's only a little bit more effort, right?

Ah, good.

Well I'm glad my message about not oversimplifying other people's arguments to score a cheap, disengenuous point landed.

Well done.

It was kind of cheap.  It was also supposed to be.  After all, anyone that knows anything about building a game knows "little bit more effort" is really not the truth.  BioWare established their position.  It doesn't matter if we agree, disagree or simply don't care, it's not going to change their minds.  Don't you think, if it truly was, it would have by now?  It's been over a year now.  Surely if they were going to get the hint, and "do just a little bit more" they would have, yes?  So no, the suggestion wasn't really one that required in depth discussion.  It's had it's in depth discussion over the last year, and while we got the EC, they stated they weren't doing anything else with it.  So it's not just a "If you'd really learned your lesson, you would bend over backwards to kiss my ass" post?  Because that's what it looks like to me.

Hey, I agree that Bioware are not going to change the ending - that no amount of petitions or arguments against the current endings are going to do anything.  That much was clear after the EC and the paid DLCs that tried to retcon their mess into sense.

But there is a vast chasm between telling people there is no hope to demanding a new ending and telling them that they have no right to express their opinion.  You declaring that the criticisms of a vast swath of fans can be simplified to little more than petulent whining for a new ending, or sobbing because they clearly just want a 'Happy-happy, Disney Glee-bomb' resolution is belligerently inappropriate.  And again, it stifles any legitimate discussion that might be worthy of taking place.

If your alternative to people expressing their opinions is, 'Well, we can't change anything now so let's all just shut up and like it', then there is little point to the entire history of art criticism, and no hope for anything better in the future.

Modifié par drayfish, 09 mai 2013 - 03:18 .

[Morlath]

jstme wrote...

Director cuts (in which 0 new content for a film is created) or small stories (that are NOT additional chapters to a book but a different story) have nothing in common with DLCs , expansions or patches in video games.
As for ending - it was broken,there is no reason to argue about it.
See - EC. Story with broken ending = broken story.
I think that post-EC ending is broken too but your opinion can be different. What is clear however is that creators considered that original ending lacked content that provided closure and clarification.   

Then you need to comprehend the definition of broken and the difference between this and poor execution.

A story plot point that people dislike to where they feel the game is/almost is unplayable? Poor execution.
A game that doesn't work on a technical level? Broken.

[JamesFaith]

jstme wrote...

How many optional chapters to a book did you buy after book was released? Zero... 

One - Something ends, something begins by Andrzej Sapkowski.

It was additional closure to Witcher pentalogy offering more happy ending - wait, what this reminds me?

Modifié par JamesFaith, 09 mai 2013 - 03:16 .

[TheProtheans]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Honestly, I don't think people around here will be satisfied unless the creators and writers say "Sorry we are such idiots, how dare we end a story the way we want to. IT [or any other alternate ending] is real, but we can't release it into the game because EA is too evil to let it happen."

That's the vibe I get, at least.

Vibes are usually wrong, from my experience anyway.
Your vibes are a little ridiculous.

How so? In this particular interview they pretty much reiterated what many people on this forum were saying, which is esstianlly "You can't end the story like this, not after we've invested so much time and decisions into the game." People's reaction? "They just don't get it." and "cringe worthy."

I thought the general view was that the story did not follow the narrative and that it made little sense as it was plot hole ridden.
And the ending boiling down into 3 choices that were almost the exact same except for the color difference ignoring choices that took place prior.
Basically a lack of variation and meaningful decisions.
There is also numerous problems from the start to just before the ending that are commonly highlighted on the forums.


They think we just want a happy ending.