1470 réponses à ce sujet

[Kunari801]

aj2070 wrote...

Assuming this;

Everman says the experience has underlined what's at stake when you're working with an interactive medium. "It shows how invested a player is in the story, and how much they care about the outcomes. I've learned that a bitter-sweet ending is much easier to watch in a movie, than experience in a long RPG where the player is very invested in the protagonist."

isn't lip-service, I would say lesson learned. I am sure I have seen people say similar things here in the forums. I would even go so far as to say you don't get as invested in a character in say a first-person shooter or even dare I say a game like "BioShock".

I've talked to Dusty a bit in a group here on BSN, he knows it wasn't the they were "sad" or "bittersweet" but that there were logical flaws and thematic changes to the ending that caused the backlash as well.

He also knows there wasn't enough closure to see the survivors rebuilt, etc to give the players a sense of victory and accomplishment. Even if Shepard dies or not.

[SpamBot2000]

dreamgazer wrote...

There are a lot of great films listed as being guilty of Diabolus ex Machina on TVTropes. I suppose that means Mass Effect 3 is as good as Vertigo, Z, and The Wages of Fear, huh?

Just recently watched Vertigo. What the hell in that could be seen to constitute a "Diabolus ex Machina"? I looked at the Vertigo page on that tvtropes site, and didn't see it listed there either.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 09 mai 2013 - 06:10 .

[SpamBot2000]

Kunari801 wrote...

I've talked to Dusty a bit in a group here on BSN, he knows it wasn't the they were "sad" or "bittersweet" but that there were logical flaws and thematic changes to the ending that caused the backlash as well.

Good for him, but maybe he ought to say that, instead of keeping with the "bittersweet" theme. 

There tends to be a lot of confusion about "bittersweet" in general. Where are all the semanticists when you need one? 

[dreamgazer]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Just recently watched Vertigo. What the hell in that could be seen to constitute a "Diabolus ex Machina"? I looked at the Vertigo page on that tvtropes site, and didn't see it listed there either.

It's down there. Go to the page and word-search "Vertigo" after you've opened the tab (I'd rather avoid spoilers). 

[SpamBot2000]

dreamgazer wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Just recently watched Vertigo. What the hell in that could be seen to constitute a "Diabolus ex Machina"? I looked at the Vertigo page on that tvtropes site, and didn't see it listed there either.

It's down there. Go to the page and word-search "Vertigo" after you've opened the tab (I'd rather avoid spoilers). 

Oh, right. It's on the trope page, but not on the Vertigo movie page.

Gotta say I disagree with this analysis. And not just the DeM, but the "Ending" one as well.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 09 mai 2013 - 06:23 .

[Kel Riever]

dreamgazer wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...

iakus wrote...
Nope.  It's been happening for over a century

Nice to see sometimes the grim derp crowd loses.

The "grim derp crowd"? Seriously?

I think this comment was basically pointing out the nature of the 'don't change the ending' crowd to equate entertaining endings with dead main characters, and their inability to understand that not having a happy ending doesn't equate to doing a good job.  Unless I misunderstood.

[dreamgazer]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Gotta say I disagree with this analysis. And not just the DeM, but the "Ending" one as well.

It actually does fit the trope's model, but execution and thematic purpose are crafty disguises.

Things people dislike usually get slapped with labels.  Things people like are defended, despite being guilty of the same problems. 

[PsyrenY]

Kel Riever wrote...


I think this comment was basically pointing out the nature of the 'don't change the ending' crowd to equate entertaining endings with dead main characters, and their inability to understand that not having a happy ending doesn't equate to doing a good job.  Unless I misunderstood.

Actually it's a two-dimensional attempt to equate the "don't change the ending" crowd with unreasonable galactic masochists, denying all artistic merit present in our position.

[Iakus]

spockjedi wrote...

Hey, there's no way they can write an ending worse than that of Return of the Jedi, right?

If ME3 had an ending like that of Return of the Jedi, the uproar wouldn't happen. At least we saw the villains dead, the protagonist alive with his morale intact, no Diabolus ex Machina, a happy reunion and hopes for galactic peace. Oh, and Lucas didn't put an ending message urging us to buy an extended edition or something.

If the price for such an ending in ME3 was SHepard had to join a volus conga line, I'd happily pay it.

[PinkysPain]

dreamgazer wrote...
The "grim derp crowd"? Seriously?

<snip>

George Orwell wrote, "Psychologically the latter part of Great Expectations is about the best thing Dickens ever did," but, like John Forster and several early 20th-century writers, including George Bernard Shaw, felt that the original ending was more consistent with the draft, as well as the natural working out of the tale. Modern literary criticism is split over the matter.

That's why I said crowd, there are distinct groups of people who like moral ambiguity, an uncaring universe and endings which reinforce those themes ... and those those who like universal morality, a karmic universe and endings which reinforce those themes.

We both have pet names for eachother

The problem with ME as a series is that 1&2 rewarded the latter mindset and 3 the former ... which betrayed expectations for those who liked that aspect of 1&2.

Modifié par PinkysPain, 09 mai 2013 - 07:04 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Let's take a look at what happens during this trilogy, shall we?

* The colony of Eden Prime is devastated by a geth attack and a strange ship.
* The colony of Feros is devastated by a geth attack and a strange ship. The colonists are infected by a strange plant life form.
* Binary Helix cloned rachni for the reapers.
* Cerberus, Exogeni, carried out various experiments on humans regarding indoctrination reaper indoctrination, and Thorian experiments.
* Geth continued their husk work and incursions into human space.
* Kaidan Alenko or Ashley Williams died.
* Saren and Sovereign and the Geth fleet attacked the Citadel. Many lives were lost.
* The Collectors began harvesting entire human colonies to make a human reaper -- turning them into slushies.
* 0-11 of your team could have died. Your entire crew could have died.
* 300,000 Batarians died whether or not you did Arrival.
* The reapers invaded. Everyone in that room except for you and Anderson was killed.
* Drayfish did an excellent job of listing individuals who died.
* 400,000,000 - 1,000,000,000 Asari died during the reaper invasion of Thessia. It was lucky the invasion came late.
* Earth's population was 11 billion pre-invasion. I estimate it to be around 5 billion. Its ecosystem is a mess.
* Khar'shan was 15 billion pre-invasion. It was harvested. Its population turned into monsters. Its ecosystem totally destroyed by the reapers.
* Palaven was also devastated. Do I have to look up pre-invasion numbers here as well?
* Not to mention Dekunna, Irune, Illium, and other major worlds that were hit and devastated.

I don't see how anyone can find a redeeming feature in these monsters. I don't see how anyone can call an ending where Shepard survives and gets reunited with his/her crew a "happy ending." Look at it.

Now think about the ending reducing the entire story about that to some kid gives you the choice of the color of the explosions on your screen, Shepard dies, the relays are destroyed, and the Normandy crashes. Maybe you got a breath. WTF? Five years?

We kept being told "this cycle is different". The reapers had never faced a united galaxy. They had only gone one system at a time isolating one cluster at a time and harvesting it. The never faced a united galactic fleet. So we united the galaxy. We brought enemies together. We earned a proper ending, not just picking what color was on our screen at the end.

Even if Shepard survived and reunited with his/her crew, it is not a happy ending. What do we have left after it is all over?

Then they give us the EC, but it took another 4 months before that was out. People who were not emotionally invested from the first game moved on. The EC just added, a stupid pickup scene, some pretty pictures and some additional voice work, and some soundtrack work for Sam Hulick (which are awesome), but otherwise the endings are the same. Pick the color.

MEHEM isn't really a happy ending. It's a community mod that cuts out the one of the more offensive parts of the game IMO -- starbrat. It is the High EMS Destroy ending modded so that the beam only targets the reapers, and Shepard gets rescued by the Shield Fleet before the Crucible fires. Low and Medium EMS versions are planned.

[PinkysPain]

J. Reezy wrote...
What's the point now? BioWare has moved beyond ME3 now.

They want to sell us ME4 ... if they have learned their lesson they have to find some way to move beyond the ME3 ending and in doing so transform it's impact on the universe away from grim derpness.

If they persist in not learning their lesson they will make a pre/mid/interquel ... and they haven't learned a damn thing, so they will.

[Mcfly616]

I'm not sure what Everman is talking about. I'm totally fine with bittersweet endings. The last thing I need is another action game with yet another cliche cookie cutter ending where the good guys always win and live, and the bad guys always lose and die.


The original endings were just way too vague and jarringly abrupt. Leaving the fate of the entire galaxy as well as our beloved squadmates up to guesswork was their biggest mistake. I hope they learned from that more than anything else. Judging by the Extended Cut it would seem like they understand now.

[Kel Riever]

Mcfly616 wrote...

I'm not sure what Everman is talking about. I'm totally fine with bittersweet endings. The last thing I need is another action game with yet another cliche cookie cutter ending where the good guys always win and live, and the bad guys always lose and die.


The original endings were just way too vague and jarringly abrupt. Leaving the fate of the entire galaxy as well as our beloved squadmates up to guesswork was their biggest mistake. I hope they learned from that more than anything else. Judging by the Extended Cut it would seem like they understand now.

Kel Riever wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...

iakus wrote...
Nope. It's been happening for over a century

Nice to see sometimes the grim derp crowd loses.

The "grim derp crowd"? Seriously?

I think this comment was basically pointing out the nature of the 'don't change the ending' crowd to equate entertaining endings with dead main characters, and their inability to understand that not having a happy ending doesn't equate to doing a good job. Unless I misunderstood.

I'm pretty sure I understood fine.

[Mcfly616]

Kel Riever wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

I'm not sure what Everman is talking about. I'm totally fine with bittersweet endings. The last thing I need is another action game with yet another cliche cookie cutter ending where the good guys always win and live, and the bad guys always lose and die.


The original endings were just way too vague and jarringly abrupt. Leaving the fate of the entire galaxy as well as our beloved squadmates up to guesswork was their biggest mistake. I hope they learned from that more than anything else. Judging by the Extended Cut it would seem like they understand now.

Kel Riever wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...

iakus wrote...
Nope. It's been happening for over a century

Nice to see sometimes the grim derp crowd loses.

The "grim derp crowd"? Seriously?

I think this comment was basically pointing out the nature of the 'don't change the ending' crowd to equate entertaining endings with dead main characters, and their inability to understand that not having a happy ending doesn't equate to doing a good job. Unless I misunderstood.

I'm pretty sure I understood fine.

and that applies to me how exactly?

[Kel Riever]

I'm just busting chops, McFly. On people who would think the ending would be made worse just by having protagonists win and live, or better just because protagonists die. If something is well written, or done well enough, I doubt it has the prerequisite of character death is what I am saying.

If you agree, whether you like the ending or not, fine. If not, well,...then that's how it would apply.

[Kunari801]

Kel Riever wrote...

I'm just busting chops, McFly. On people who would think the ending would be made worse just by having protagonists win and live, or better just because protagonists die. If something is well written, or done well enough, I doubt it has the prerequisite of character death is what I am saying.... 

I agree with this. I was pretty sure my Shepard would die in the end no matter, but it was the terribly written ending that provided no closure nor sense of victory or accomplishment that ruined the endings.

Sure I'd like my Shepard to live, but a sense of victory and closure are more important.

[Bizinha]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Let's take a look at what happens during this trilogy, shall we?

* The colony of Eden Prime is devastated by a geth attack and a strange ship.
* The colony of Feros is devastated by a geth attack and a strange ship. The colonists are infected by a strange plant life form.
* Binary Helix cloned rachni for the reapers.
* Cerberus, Exogeni, carried out various experiments on humans regarding indoctrination reaper indoctrination, and Thorian experiments.
* Geth continued their husk work and incursions into human space.
* Kaidan Alenko or Ashley Williams died.
* Saren and Sovereign and the Geth fleet attacked the Citadel. Many lives were lost.
* The Collectors began harvesting entire human colonies to make a human reaper -- turning them into slushies.
* 0-11 of your team could have died. Your entire crew could have died.
* 300,000 Batarians died whether or not you did Arrival.
* The reapers invaded. Everyone in that room except for you and Anderson was killed.
* Drayfish did an excellent job of listing individuals who died.
* 400,000,000 - 1,000,000,000 Asari died during the reaper invasion of Thessia. It was lucky the invasion came late.
* Earth's population was 11 billion pre-invasion. I estimate it to be around 5 billion. Its ecosystem is a mess.
* Khar'shan was 15 billion pre-invasion. It was harvested. Its population turned into monsters. Its ecosystem totally destroyed by the reapers.
* Palaven was also devastated. Do I have to look up pre-invasion numbers here as well?
* Not to mention Dekunna, Irune, Illium, and other major worlds that were hit and devastated.

I don't see how anyone can find a redeeming feature in these monsters. I don't see how anyone can call an ending where Shepard survives and gets reunited with his/her crew a "happy ending." Look at it.

Now think about the ending reducing the entire story about that to some kid gives you the choice of the color of the explosions on your screen, Shepard dies, the relays are destroyed, and the Normandy crashes. Maybe you got a breath. WTF? Five years?

We kept being told "this cycle is different". The reapers had never faced a united galaxy. They had only gone one system at a time isolating one cluster at a time and harvesting it. The never faced a united galactic fleet. So we united the galaxy. We brought enemies together. We earned a proper ending, not just picking what color was on our screen at the end.

Even if Shepard survived and reunited with his/her crew, it is not a happy ending. What do we have left after it is all over?

Then they give us the EC, but it took another 4 months before that was out. People who were not emotionally invested from the first game moved on. The EC just added, a stupid pickup scene, some pretty pictures and some additional voice work, and some soundtrack work for Sam Hulick (which are awesome), but otherwise the endings are the same. Pick the color.

MEHEM isn't really a happy ending. It's a community mod that cuts out the one of the more offensive parts of the game IMO -- starbrat. It is the High EMS Destroy ending modded so that the beam only targets the reapers, and Shepard gets rescued by the Shield Fleet before the Crucible fires. Low and Medium EMS versions are planned.

This and this. 

All already suffered enough ... From drama to tragedy. 

[Kunari801]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

I've talked to Dusty a bit in a group here on BSN, he knows it wasn't the they were "sad" or "bittersweet" but that there were logical flaws and thematic changes to the ending that caused the backlash as well.

Good for him, but maybe he ought to say that, instead of keeping with the "bittersweet" theme. 

There tends to be a lot of confusion about "bittersweet" in general. Where are all the semanticists when you need one? 

I'm sure he said more than that one line to the interviewer.  It's not like had editorial control of what they'd publish.  

[txgoldrush]

Wow, so many BSNers simply just didn't get the ending...yeah, you didn't get it.

If you think the ending wasn't consistent, you didn't get it. It WAS consistent

If you think the ending was about organics vs. synthetics you really didn't get it. That wasn't the final conflict, that was the context of the conflict.

[txgoldrush]

Now thanks to those who don't get it, Bioware is going to dumb things down in the future....good job.

The Extended Cut works...deal with it.....that's why they went with it.

[Kel Riever]

txgoldrush wrote...

Now thanks to those who don't get it, Bioware is going to dumb things down in the future....good job.

The Extended Cut works...deal with it.....that's why they went with it.

If you said you liked the ending, I wouldn't argue as much.  But really, other than that, you couldn't be more incorrect.  For nothing more than assuming everybody should think like you, and basically calling them dumb for not.

Modifié par Kel Riever, 09 mai 2013 - 07:49 .

[Bizinha]

txgoldrush wrote...

Wow, so many BSNers simply just didn't get the ending...yeah, you didn't get it.

If you think the ending wasn't consistent, you didn't get it. It WAS consistent

If you think the ending was about organics vs. synthetics you really didn't get it. That wasn't the final conflict, that was the context of the conflict.

As much as we write and speak English badly wrong, I have no problems with cognition or interpretation, the end was very bad, incomplete and incomprehensible.
It does not fit in the trilogy.

The DLC E.C.'s there to prove it.If it was something so simple, most people would be satisfied without DLC.

Modifié par Bizinha, 09 mai 2013 - 07:49 .