1470 réponses à ce sujet

[yukon fire]

Reorte wrote...

yukon fire wrote...

I think the only lesson that's been learned (at least by the Dragon Age team) has been not to speak about anything pre-release, other than that they don't think they've done anything wrong, which actually speaks volumes about the current Bioware.

I suspect you might be right but as I said earlier even if they have learned it's far-fetched to expect them to come out and say it; the only way we'll know is by seeing what the next game comes up with (or the game after that probably, doubt anything will be completely redesigned mid-development).

If they actually learned something someone would be no longer working there, even the people who served up that outright broken quest menu system still work there, so clearly something is wrong.

[dreamgazer]

yukon fire wrote...

If they actually learned something someone would be no longer working there, even the people who served up that outright broken quest menu system still work there, so clearly something is wrong.

Which one: the project director of the Mass Effect universe since day one, or the guy who has been writing for BioWare since Jade Empire?

[drayfish]

Matthias King wrote...

Saying it was a very vocal minority is their way of downplaying it, but the same way that Casey Hudson intentionally missing the point of ending complaints.

They know full well, believe me..

It certainly exhibits a frustratingly disengenuous capacity to spin reality to their message.

I mean, I know that there are a number of people who enjoyed the ending (many of whom pop up in threads such as these to remind others that they are too ignorant to appreciate the 'genius'), but clearly a business like Bioware is not going to spend millions of dollars and precious manpower to produce a free extended ending to a game that they had already declared was ended, and that was being lavished with critical praise by games publications, all just to appease a few screaming malcontents.

Basic logic indicates that the consumer blowback was far more substantial and concerning than a 'vocal minority'.

The fact that they continue to try and perpetuate this myth, in spite of their own actions, and have committed to selling the revisionism that all fans ultimately wanted was more face-time with their fav characters (which we totally delivered in a pandering DLC on sale now!), indicate to me that absolutely nothing has changed.

And the fact that the gaming publications (who were caught up in this mess in the first place when they started calling players 'entitled', and the 'death of artistic expression' in order to cover their own ineptitude at objectively critiquing the game) have now accepted this PR slant as 'truth', selling the line that lessons have been learned, fans have been appeased, means that the cycle will simply begin all over again.  Promises will be made; narratives will be rushed; reviewers will over-hype; criticism will be rewritten.  Dragon Age 2; KOTOR online; Mass Effect 3...

It is a pattern that has repeated itself countless times...

Hm.

Maybe the Catalyst was right.

Modifié par drayfish, 11 mai 2013 - 02:30 .

[yukon fire]

dreamgazer wrote...

Reorte wrote...

yukon fire wrote...

I think the only lesson that's been learned (at least by the Dragon Age team) has been not to speak about anything pre-release, other than that they don't think they've done anything wrong, which actually speaks volumes about the current Bioware.

I suspect you might be right but as I said earlier even if they have learned it's far-fetched to expect them to come out and say it; the only way we'll know is by seeing what the next game comes up with (or the game after that probably, doubt anything will be completely redesigned mid-development).

I doubt they started hardcore development on MEWhatever until a few months after the last one was released, and even then they were aware of the backlash---minority or majority.  The next game will be very telling. 

I am not talking hardcore development, I am talking about the few who were supposed to be minding the store thinking that since all th need to do is slap ME3 on their game so they focus their efforts elsewhere.

[spirosz]

Honestly, take what they say with a grain of salt. See what the next title holds and I know this is tough, but don't pre-order if you're hesitant and wait, there is nothing wrong with speaking with your wallet. Watch some Lets plays on Youtube, to see if their next title lives up to (important part here) your expectations and what YOU like in games. They can say whatever they want to try to persuade you to purchase their games - "We've learned," We really do understand what our fans want," blah, blah - be patient and have realistic expectations.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I personally think BW's focus is on their new IP. Knowing EA and their tap with Disney on Star Wars though, I'm wondering how they're going to find the time. And with EA and BW's credibility in the crapper, people won't trust it.

[AresKeith]

spirosz wrote...

Watch some Lets plays on Youtube, to see if their next title lives up to (important part here) your expectations and what YOU like in games. 

That's what I normally do

[yukon fire]

dreamgazer wrote...

yukon fire wrote...

If they actually learned something someone would be no longer working there, even the people who served up that outright broken quest menu system still work there, so clearly something is wrong.

Which one: the project director of the Mass Effect universe since day one, or the guy who has been writing for BioWare since Jade Empire?

Anyone...

http://m.oxm.co.uk/3...effect-forever/

[dreamgazer]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And with EA and BW's credibility in the crapper, people won't trust it.

Are you not seeing the threads discussing what they want and expect of the next Mass Effect game?

The demand still appears to be there---the "trust", if you will.

[goose2989]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

"We'd never have imagined that as we ended the trilogy, all people would want to do was spend more time with the characters, sort of bathing in the afterglow - getting closure and just having some time to live in the universe that they fought to save."

What an incredibly stupid thing to say. We built up this universe from scratch and made you fall in love with it's characters, but we had no idea you would want to actually spend more time here.

Seriously? BioWare, please... get a ****ing clue.

/\\

I find it very hard to believe he said that statement honestly. How could the fans of this series not want that? BioWare's own marketing and public statements over the past six years has mad it clear they understand the characters are a major selling point. 

[Iakus]

yukon fire wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

yukon fire wrote...

If they actually learned something someone would be no longer working there, even the people who served up that outright broken quest menu system still work there, so clearly something is wrong.

Which one: the project director of the Mass Effect universe since day one, or the guy who has been writing for BioWare since Jade Empire?

Anyone...

http://m.oxm.co.uk/3...effect-forever/

Heh, maybe the ending really was an attempt to Torch the Franchise and Run

[Chashan]

iakus wrote...

yukon fire wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

yukon fire wrote...

If they actually learned something someone would be no longer working there, even the people who served up that outright broken quest menu system still work there, so clearly something is wrong.

Which one: the project director of the Mass Effect universe since day one, or the guy who has been writing for BioWare since Jade Empire?

Anyone...

http://m.oxm.co.uk/3...effect-forever/

Heh, maybe the ending really was an attempt to Torch the Franchise and Run

That indeed is what that particular bit reads like...

...in which case, I have got to wonder why several incarnations of Red were not enough to satisfy that objective. Certainly would have saved them quite a few headaches, wouldn't it.

[drayfish]

spirosz wrote...

Honestly, take what they say with a grain of salt. See what the next title holds and I know this is tough, but don't pre-order if you're hesitant and wait, there is nothing wrong with speaking with your wallet. Watch some Lets plays on Youtube, to see if their next title lives up to (important part here) your expectations and what YOU like in games. They can say whatever they want to try to persuade you to purchase their games - "We've learned," We really do understand what our fans want," blah, blah - be patient and have realistic expectations.

Wonderfully stated.

It's a somewhat moot point for me, as I won't be buying their next game, but it is a fantastic lesson that they have provided in Mass Effect 3.  Past reputation, glowing reviews, and a borderline assault of positive preview press and developer promises had little relationship to the final product for me.

(Personally, previous to ME3 I never would have thought that Bioware could have shaken my faith in their quality and dedication, but after their response to criticism, and continued revisionist take on the storm that followed, I don't even recognise them anymore.)

Perhaps its an indication that the games media still lacks a wealth of autonomous reviewers and critics that can legitimately speak to the quality of a game.  Perhaps it shows just how uncomfortably enmeshed advertising and review have become.  Perhaps it indicates that despite having a forum devoted to promoting fan discussion, Bioware pays little to no attention to what is spoken there.  Or perhaps it merely shows that the whole system of pre-ordering is inherrently flawed (after all, few people 'pre-order' a movie ticket months in advance based on paid-previews).

In any case, it reveals that there is at the very least a disconnect between the messaging of these game's creators, and the response of a good chunk of their audience.  And in such a situation, this divide needs to be approached with a good deal of caution in future.

Modifié par drayfish, 11 mai 2013 - 03:11 .

[yukon fire]

Seriously prior to launch their biggest fear should have been about the quality of the game, its very telling to hear anyone involved in the game admit freely that they were more worried about what would happen if the game was successful.

[dreamgazer]

drayfish wrote...

It's a somewhat moot point for me, as I won't be buying their next game, but it is a fantastic lesson that they have provided in Mass Effect 3.  Past reputation, glowing reviews, and a borderline assault of positive preview press and developer promises had little relationship to the final product for me.

That's a lesson you learn pretty quick when dealing with the world of film, as well as books and music.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 11 mai 2013 - 03:22 .

[dreamgazer]

yukon fire wrote...

Seriously prior to launch their biggest fear should have been about the quality of the game, its very telling to hear anyone involved in the game admit freely that they were more worried about what would happen if the game was successful.

You read those kinds of quotes from many directors and actors who get caught in a popular franchise, though, especially comic-book movies.

[yukon fire]

dreamgazer wrote...

yukon fire wrote...

Seriously prior to launch their biggest fear should have been about the quality of the game, its very telling to hear anyone involved in the game admit freely that they were more worried about what would happen if the game was successful.

You read those kinds of quotes from many directors and actors who get caught in a popular franchise, though, especially comic-book movies.

That does not make it any better, and probably speaks about the type of quality you get in some comic book movies. If that's the type of quality they were shooting for then they hit their mark.

[drayfish]

dreamgazer wrote...

drayfish wrote...

[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">It's a somewhat moot point for me, as I won't be buying their next game, but it is a fantastic lesson that they have provided in ]Mass Effect 3[/color].  Past reputation, glowing reviews, and a borderline assault of positive preview press and developer promises had little relationship to the final product for me.

That's a lesson you learn pretty quick when dealing with the world of film, as well as books and music.

True - but unlike in games, in film, fiction, and music, I know where to go for a wealth of unbiased criticism that has not been swayed by the uncomfortably cozy relationship between reviewers and creators, where continued advertising dollars, previews, and access are not all dependent upon the gaming publisher's whim.

Modifié par drayfish, 11 mai 2013 - 03:31 .

[remydat]

Honestly, I look forward to the next ME game and also hope all the people that hated ME3 don't buy ME4 so the future ME4 boards are not overwhelmed by them, lol.

[chemiclord]

dreamgazer wrote...

You read those kinds of quotes from many directors and actors who get caught in a popular franchise, though, especially comic-book movies.

It's also a very REAL fear.

An example of this is one that people love to cite here... Doyle and Sherlock Holmes.  That guy pretty much got locked into one setting for his entire career; the moment he tried to leave it, he was harrassed and bullied into compliance by fans who refused to let it go.  Oh yeah, and the harrassment went on for nearly a DECADE.

I know that creators are supposed to be HAPPY and FLATTERED when their fans reach a fevered crazed psycho stalker stage (because it's how you know we LOVE you), but honestly... it's a kinda terrifying thought from the other side of the coin.

Modifié par chemiclord, 11 mai 2013 - 03:44 .

[Megaton_Hope]

Game journalism is just pretty much worthless. All the games a magazine/website/tv show profiles can't be 8-10 in everything, that's not how percentiles work.

[yukon fire]

Sure, wonder if the people at Big Huge Games were concerned with KOA becoming too successful.

[chemiclord]

yukon fire wrote...

Sure, wonder if the people at Big Huge Games were concerned with KOA becoming too successful.

I'm sure some of them were.  Not everyone wants to do one thing for their entire career, and the idea that they might be pressured to do so is not a comforting thought.

[yukon fire]

I am sorry, but quite a few people get up everyday and go to work doing jobs that suck, there is not an excuse for putting in a subpar effort. We live in a world where people should be thankful they have a job, because some of those KOA people don't.

[AlanC9]

chemiclord wrote...

I'm sure some of them were.  Not everyone wants to do one thing for their entire career, and the idea that they might be pressured to do so is not a comforting thought.

But if your game really was a success, presumably you could get a job with another dev. Might have to move, though.