1470 réponses à ce sujet

[N7 Shadow 90]

AresKeith wrote...

N7 Shadow 90 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

N7 Shadow 90 wrote...

OXM: How did Multiplayer come about?
CH: When the ME Universe was envisioned, it seemed like it would fun to explore the universe with a friend. We tried to fit Multiplayer in ME1 and ME2 without compromising the core experience, but we didn't find a good way to do it. With ME3, we had an opportunity to fit in a Multiplayer that fit well and complimented Shepard's story.

But why Horde mode?

In the interview, Casey says that they looked at co-op in the main story, where players would take control of squad members, but it didn't seem that anybody would want to play as just a supporting player in someone else's game. He also says that they thought of some kind of PvP in ME2, but it didn't fit with the secretive battle against the Collector's in Shepard's story.
I don't see what else they could of done except a wave by wave mode. I personally love it and think that it fits really well with the whole theme of the Galaxy united, battling the Reapers.

A co-op campaign with similarities to the MP plus drop-in/ drop-out or co-op games modes that are based on the Side missions would have been better choices

Them ideas sound good, but I'm not sure that they would have been as good as what we got. I guess there's no way of knowing.

[angol fear]

4stringwizard wrote...

angol fear wrote...

So we'll have only happy endings, no more logical endings? The writing in video game is not really high and we'll come back to that kind of writing. But I understand they need to sell games.

If you think the ending of ME3 was logical, you're insane.  If you think the writing quality was even close to "high", you're even more insane. 

So I'm insane? I'm actually literature teacher, cinema critic and writer. I think I know a little what I'm talking about. So yes, the standard of writing in video game is low and yes, Mass Effect 3 (original ending) is the highest level of writing ever seen in the video game history but to understand that you need to understand literature from its origins till the experimental books in the 20th century, you need to understand what is the strucutralism to make a real analysis of Mass Effect you need to understand the theories of reception... I stop here : there's so much to explain to you and I don't have time to do this. You can dislike Mass Effect 3 but I wouldn't be proud to show my ignorance like you did and, most important, the way you did.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Point: A trilogy about choices rendered those choices meaningless with its ending.

Point taken: Give people more dialogue interacting with characters, that's what they wanted.



And this is why I spend so much time banging my head on tables.

Because it lessens the pain.

[crimzontearz]

LoL sometimes I wonder how the people asking the questions do not just burst out laughing and say "seriously? You are joking right? You know I was expecting a real answer right? How the hell can you expect me to take this seriously??"

Modifié par crimzontearz, 08 mai 2013 - 04:48 .

[o Ventus]

angol fear wrote...

So I'm insane? I'm actually literature teacher, cinema critic and writer. I think I know a little what I'm talking about. So yes, the standard of writing in video game is low and yes, Mass Effect 3 (original ending) is the highest level of writing ever seen in the video game history but to understand that you need to understand literature from its origins till the experimental books in the 20th century, you need to understand what is the strucutralism to make a real analysis of Mass Effect you need to understand the theories of reception... I stop here : there's so much to explain to you and I don't have time to do this. You can dislike Mass Effect 3 but I wouldn't be proud to show my ignorance like you did and, most important, the way you did.

The original endings to ME3 were among the "highest levels of writing ever seen in video game history"?

If ME3 is the only game you've ever played, ever, then sure. I can name at least 5 games from the current console generation with better endings.

[Endurium]

I find it hilarious that the writers were so ignorant to begin with. No kidding games are different than movies; I knew that as a child.

That said, I suppose "better late than never" applies here.

[AlanC9]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

As appears to be the new norm, BW missed the mark, though we fans didn't particularly help. We inform them how upset we are and tell them our problems, then they release Citadel, a gooey, fluffy, and strait up fan-service character/romance DLC (which is admittedly very good and is about what makes ME: the characters), and we all cave and buy it.

This makes it sound like Bio hit the mark.

[o Ventus]

crimzontearz wrote...

LoL sometimes I wonder who the people asking the questions do not just burst put laughing and "seriously? You are joking right? You know I was expecting a real answer right? How the hell can you expect me to take this seriously??"

And this is why I would be a horrible journalist.

[AresKeith]

N7 Shadow 90 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

N7 Shadow 90 wrote...

In the interview, Casey says that they looked at co-op in the main story, where players would take control of squad members, but it didn't seem that anybody would want to play as just a supporting player in someone else's game. He also says that they thought of some kind of PvP in ME2, but it didn't fit with the secretive battle against the Collector's in Shepard's story.
I don't see what else they could of done except a wave by wave mode. I personally love it and think that it fits really well with the whole theme of the Galaxy united, battling the Reapers.

A co-op campaign with similarities to the MP plus drop-in/ drop-out or co-op games modes that are based on the Side missions would have been better choices

Them ideas sound good, but I'm not sure that they would have been as good as what we got. I guess there's no way of knowing.

A drop-in/drop out co-op campaign that lets players customize their character of any race but more in-depth that the current MP would give the proper tie in to the SP than what Bioware tried to do Pre-EC

And having multiple Co-op game modes would be the same way, but gives more feeling to the theme of a united Galaxy other than shooting goons for 11 Waves

[eddieoctane]

angol fear wrote...

So I'm insane? I'm actually literature teacher, cinema critic and writer. I think I know a little what I'm talking about. So yes, the standard of writing in video game is low and yes, Mass Effect 3 (original ending) is the highest level of writing ever seen in the video game history but to understand that you need to understand literature from its origins till the experimental books in the 20th century, you need to understand what is the strucutralism to make a real analysis of Mass Effect you need to understand the theories of reception... I stop here : there's so much to explain to you and I don't have time to do this. You can dislike Mass Effect 3 but I wouldn't be proud to show my ignorance like you did and, most important, the way you did.

Let me paraphrase that:

You can't understand how great ME3 is unless you're an art major. It's simply too much to understand without 4+ years of education in stories.

And how that comes across:

You're not smart enough to see how awesome ME3 is.

And thus we have the issue of why almost everyone hates the art crap, be it from a player for Ray Muzyka.

[Chashan]

Robosexual wrote...
 The one thing I don't want to happen to Bioware especially is for them to feel threatened into making their stories bland, predictable or forgettable because of the hold the whine movement.

Interesting phrasing, given your avatar, monsieur.

If the new ME-team check and double-check again that the stories they are releasing is actually up to their standards up until and including the finale as a consequence of this learning-curve, I think we may call that a success.

I can't say I would be sad never to see something of the creature's calibre in further ME-titles again.


Ultimately with iakus and others on this one: the ME-team will have to deliver on their words first before trust can be regained. Words are pretty much just wind in this particular case, otherwise.

]o Ventus wrote...


The original endings to ME3 were among the "highest levels of writing ever seen in video game history"?

If
ME3 is the only game you've ever played, ever, then sure. I can name at
least 5 games from the current console generation with better endings.

Aside from that claim sounding awfully pretentious. I could point out an unseeming title called 'Bastion' that managed a more thought-out scenario of conflict between 'rewinding the clock' and 'moving forward' in the face of a cataclysmic event that inspires more thought than ME3's "Puer vult!" does.

[Clayless]

eddieoctane wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

This can't be accidental, this victim mentality and warping of every. single. thing.

First off, BioWare partially acknowledged issues they caused by releasing the EC. However, they never publicly admitted any fault on their part. Even the statements that came along with the EC tried to say that the fans needed something extra, not that the closure should have been their from the start. The statement I originally quoted further implied that the difficulty in enjoying the original ending was the fans' problem, not BioWare's in making an ending. I applaud risk-taking, but that must come with acceptance of failure when it doesn't work and a promise to do better. I see very little of that from BioWare.

Your constant condescension verges on fanboyism. It is unnecessary and
ultimately holds back the evolution of video games as a medium. If we can't demand developers to be upfront with us, if we can't hold them accountable for their mistakes, we may as well just give companies like EA our checking account info and let them do as they please. Fair criticism of business practices and poor "art" need to be allowed. Else, developers will assume they are making exactly what people want and publishers will try to water it down as much as possible to wring out every last dime they can.

What fault? They directly addressed this with the EC. Complaints based on subjective views of some people.

I can't stress this enough, it doesn't matter how much you complain about something because in your opinion it's at fault, complaining about it doesn't actually make it so. If you don't enjoy the ending that doesn't mean the ending is at fault, it really just is your opinion, it's as simple as that. You could say "I think it's a fault that we don't see our squadmates get picked up by the Normandy" but to then say, after Bioware directly addresses this, that it's only a partial acknowledgement is just crazy.

If there's one thing that's threatening to hold back the evolution of games it's people who demand that developers and writers remove things, stop being creative, and frankly change the universe that they created because said person doesn't like it.

[SpamBot2000]

Lessons? My Mass Effect experience wasn't a school for developers, and I'm not inclined to chalk it up to the education of the people who get to finance their lifestyles with my $$$$. Usually it's the people who receive the education that pay.

I want my favorite series back to "playable without triggering clinical depression". How about they FINALLY fix the damn thing? Then we can proceed from this mess, give the sequel a chance etc.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 08 mai 2013 - 04:39 .

[eddieoctane]

Robosexual wrote...

I can't stress this enough, it doesn't matter how much you complain about something because in your opinion it's at fault, complaining about it doesn't actually make it so. If you don't enjoy the ending that doesn't mean the ending is at fault, it really just is your opinion, it's as simple as that. You could say "I think it's a fault that we don't see our squadmates get picked up by the Normandy" but to then say, after Bioware directly addresses this, that it's only a partial acknowledgement is just crazy.

If there's one thing that's threatening to hold back the evolution of games it's people who demand that developers and writers remove things, stop being creative, and frankly change the universe that they created because said person doesn't like it.

You're partially right on that. My opinion alone can't make somethign at fault. 12 opinions, however, can.

If we can't demand a developer acknowledge a mistake and either fix it or not do it again,  then we can't demand that of politicians, cops, or even young children. And I'll restate my previous point about the EC. The press releases and such that accompanied it stated it was for a minority of players who were so unhappy that soemthign had to be done to appease them. If you can't understand how language can be evasive or what double-speak is, I feel sorry for you. You're a terribly easy mark for a con-man. If you think everything can be taken at face value, the world is going to crush you.

[crimzontearz]

o Ventus wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

LoL sometimes I wonder who the people asking the questions do not just burst put laughing and "seriously? You are joking right? You know I was expecting a real answer right? How the hell can you expect me to take this seriously??"

And this is why I would be a horrible journalist.

 
Same here

[Killdren88]

Reading Hudson's quotes made me picture his smug arrogant face.

[RainbowDazed]

Robosexual wrote...

By the looks of the article they're talking more about character closure. Though I hope this doesn't mean they, or any other game company, will not take risks and make great stories because of it. Bioshock Infinite for example wasn't perfect, but they took a risk. It makes for a fascinating story that sticks with you. The one thing I don't want to happen to Bioware especially is for them to feel threatened into making their stories bland, predictable or forgettable because of the hold the whine movement.

They're writers and they created this absolutely wonderful universe, and I hope they don't feel like their creativity should be held back just in case some people overreact.

This.

[GroverA125]

Hold all criticism until after we see if they have learned their lesson.

There's a list of things that should not understood by a developer:
1) Do not remove the player's control of a situation unless completely necessary.
2) Players love boss fights. A boss fight is not the same as throwing three banshees at players, a boss fight is something new that requires good tactical thinking, teamwork collaboration and/or brutal efficiency to defeat.
3) Do not make multiple choice ending as a definite unless the choices are absolutes. If the community can say "yeah, but why didn't..." then you've not done it right. We should sit there and accept that it's the only way, and our choice should reflect our decision, not some that you thought would be cool and not reflect our character's opinions (don't bias the end towards one set of decisions)
4) Players like customisation, give them it.
5) Players like multiplayer, but next time put your back into it. Minigame-esque survival isn't the best it could be.
6) Players don't like petty DLCs, if you want to make DLCs, make them all sparkly-glowy. A player should WANT to buy them, not feel that completionism makes them want to get it.
7) More characters are nice. A good story has a character, race, faction, etc. that everyone can relate to. Preferably one who returns and doesn't die within the first five minutes of gameplay (goddammit Jenkins).
8) Shiny-ass sparkly lasers make everything better.
9) Except for when they're shooting the player. Give the player a psychological superiority against base enemies, and abolish that with superior ones. (make mooks have small, quiet weapons and specialists have loud, more fear-stirring ones).
10) People like to go medieval. As such, people love swords and crossbows in sci-fi almost as much as they like to feed their megalomania with gold weapons, armor, etc.

I'm sure that there's more, but I feel that's all I can happily put out.

Let's be fair, Bioware have done a fair job patching up a mess that, while it was unnecessary, couldn't have been predicted. If they claim that they won't do it again, then until they have, we've nothing to go off.

[Clayless]

eddieoctane wrote...

You're partially right on that. My opinion alone can't make somethign at fault. 12 opinions, however, can.

No it can't. It doesn't matter how many people agree with your opinion, it wont suddenly turn from subjective to objective. I could complain about literally anything and say it's at fault, I could even go and find a thousand people that agree with me, but it wouldn't make it so.

If we can't demand a developer acknowledge a mistake and either fix it or not do it again,  then we can't demand that of politicians, cops, or even young children. And I'll restate my previous point about the EC. The press releases and such that accompanied it stated it was for a minority of players who were so unhappy that soemthign had to be done to appease them. If you can't understand how language can be evasive or what double-speak is, I feel sorry for you. You're a terribly easy mark for a con-man. If you think everything can be taken at face value, the world is going to crush you.

Fix what? Your opinion? If we can't demand that people, who spent almost a decade of their life creating a piece of entertainment, remove something that we don't like from it, then we can't demand that cops follow the law or that politicians make the country a fairer place, or that kids learn to live in the world? Don't you see how completely different they are? You literally jumped from one extreme to another, in an analogy that doesn't work. If someone says that you can't demand a food company stops trying new things and removes their new product, and in that same breath say that those that don't are holding back the industry, it doesn't mean that you can't demand the builder that's working on your house does what you want. That's a pretty extreme situation there, and it's no where near as extreme as "If I can't demand they change the end of a piece of entertainment then I can't demand that cops do their job".

I never expected the delusion to spread to comparing a piece of entertainment to raising kids. That's a new one.

Modifié par Robosexual, 08 mai 2013 - 05:09 .

[N7 Shadow 90]

RainbowDazed wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

By the looks of the article they're talking more about character closure. Though I hope this doesn't mean they, or any other game company, will not take risks and make great stories because of it. Bioshock Infinite for example wasn't perfect, but they took a risk. It makes for a fascinating story that sticks with you. The one thing I don't want to happen to Bioware especially is for them to feel threatened into making their stories bland, predictable or forgettable because of the hold the whine movement.

They're writers and they created this absolutely wonderful universe, and I hope they don't feel like their creativity should be held back just in case some people overreact.

This.

Completely. I loved ME3's bittersweet ending, and one of them reasons was because it wasn't just a simple 'the hero wins' ending.

[Cainhurst Crow]

AresKeith wrote...

N7 Shadow 90 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

N7 Shadow 90 wrote...

In the interview, Casey says that they looked at co-op in the main story, where players would take control of squad members, but it didn't seem that anybody would want to play as just a supporting player in someone else's game. He also says that they thought of some kind of PvP in ME2, but it didn't fit with the secretive battle against the Collector's in Shepard's story.
I don't see what else they could of done except a wave by wave mode. I personally love it and think that it fits really well with the whole theme of the Galaxy united, battling the Reapers.

A co-op campaign with similarities to the MP plus drop-in/ drop-out or co-op games modes that are based on the Side missions would have been better choices

Them ideas sound good, but I'm not sure that they would have been as good as what we got. I guess there's no way of knowing.

A drop-in/drop out co-op campaign that lets players customize their character of any race but more in-depth that the current MP would give the proper tie in to the SP than what Bioware tried to do Pre-EC

And having multiple Co-op game modes would be the same way, but gives more feeling to the theme of a united Galaxy other than shooting goons for 11 Waves

How would that work? Would this character materialize on the normandy for one mission and dissapear again? Are you talking about sending a different squad composed of your own characters into a hotzone rather than shepard and his crew for the side missions?

What it sounds like you described, is a shorter version of the multiplayer we already have, but shoved into the single player campaign rather than being a seperate game feature.

[Felya87]

if they have understand what they did wrong, and now know how to make the unhappy fan happy, why they don't fix first ME3, than think to the new ME?

[jstme]

angol fear wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

angol fear wrote...

So we'll have only happy endings, no more logical endings? The writing in video game is not really high and we'll come back to that kind of writing. But I understand they need to sell games.

If you think the ending of ME3 was logical, you're insane.  If you think the writing quality was even close to "high", you're even more insane. 

So I'm insane? I'm actually literature teacher, cinema critic and writer. I think I know a little what I'm talking about. So yes, the standard of writing in video game is low and yes, Mass Effect 3 (original ending) is the highest level of writing ever seen in the video game history but to understand that you need to understand literature from its origins till the experimental books in the 20th century, you need to understand what is the strucutralism to make a real analysis of Mass Effect you need to understand the theories of reception... I stop here : there's so much to explain to you and I don't have time to do this. You can dislike Mass Effect 3 but I wouldn't be proud to show my ignorance like you did and, most important, the way you did.

 As a literature teacher,cinema critic and writer (ltccw for short) you are missing one obvious thing - if 99% of a trilogy are written on a certain level but the ending is written on a completely different level that only Ltccws (that can understand literature from its origins till the experimental books in the 20th century,know  what is the strucutralism and eat theories of reception for breakfast) can appreciate - then it is bad writing by definition.
 It is just as rediculous as Tolstoy suddenly concluding "War and Peace" with Pierre storming Paris and capturing Napoleon with help of his loyal squad.
 

Modifié par jstme, 08 mai 2013 - 05:18 .

[SilJeff]

Robosexual wrote...

This can't be accidental, this victim mentality and warping of every. single. thing.

We're releasing a free DLC to address complaints for the ending but I stand by my team of passionate people who helped create this universe? Twisted into "OMG artistic integrity" by people here.

We didn't want to turn TIM into a Reaper monster? Twisted into "OMG everything is too videogamey" by people here.

It shows how invested a player is in the story, and how much they care about the outcomes. I've learned that a bitter-sweet ending is much easier to watch in a movie, than experience in a long RPG where the player is very invested in the protagonist? Twisted into "OMG you just don't get it" by people here.

That mentality is just ridiculous.

amen