1470 réponses à ce sujet

[Morlath]

Saito404 wrote...

I don't get all the drama about "killing" EDI and Geth. They are just machines with AI program. Machine can be repaired, program can be rewritten.

And if you don't consider anything alive unless it fits your singular organic vision then that's your limited singular vision.

The difference between a brain and an AI is the hardware the electrical impulses run on.

[Morlath]

chemiclord wrote...

A golden ending inherently defeats the moral dilemma presented.  A golden ending creates a "right" choice, and a "wrong" choice (or choices)... which is the anamathea of moral dilemmas (where there is no "right" or "wrong" answer beyond your personal values). 

They are mutally exclusive.  Once you commit to one, you cannot have the other.

I agree.

For me, as much as I wanted Shepard to live, the "hero walking into the sunset with their loved one" doesn't cut it as a narrative when taken in context of the entire game/series. Regardless of the execution of the ending, I never once expected Shepard to come back Priority: Earth alive.

[Morlath]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

Even the major decisions, like committing genocide, don't have an impact. Look at what you can do to the Rachni on Noveria. No impact whatsoever. Even though the choice is between unleashing a race capable of interstellar travel back into the universe, or exterminating their last queen, which presumably means they can no longer breed. If you take that second option, there's still a goddamn queen breeding new Rachni, created from narrative nothing-space because they didn't want the choice to matter.

Or overwriting the hostile Geth, pressuring the Quarian Admirals to make peace (along with support from the crowd), those do nothing as well. There are hostile Geth, because the Quarians go to war and make all the Geth hostile.

Or making Anderson the Councilor, does nothing because Udina becomes the ****ing Councilor anyway.

Of course they have an impact!

The Rachni situation isn't a cop-out, it's a moral choice in the first game about allowing a species to find redemption. There's no proof that the queen's egg was the only one found nor is there proof that she was the only one out there. Binary-Helix was run by Reaper indoctrinated Saren/Benezia which means anything they knew, Sovereign knew.

The Rachni showing up in ME3 makes sense if you save her and can be explained if you don't. It doesn't chance the impact of the choice.

And really? You tell the Quarians not to start a war and you expect them to listen? They basically say "of course Shepard, anything you say Shepard, there's a good boy/girl Shepard." and send you packing with Tali. There's absolutely nothing in ME2 that even hints at them listening to the advice.

[Morlath]

jstme wrote...

But there is no need for tens of thousands of reaper ships,is there?

Even if the "Leviathan of Dis" died during the first Harvest that's 20, 000 cycles from then to ME3. That's at the very minimum 20,000 Reaper ships created from the ooze of previous cycles. Even if each cycle manages to whittle down the numbers, it's still conceivable to have that as over 10,000 actual Reapers (not including other ships) and that's a bare minimum number given data we have.

[Ajensis]

David7204 wrote...

Choices didn't matter as much as they should have. And yes, that's a bad thing. But it's an unpleasant reality, and Mass Effect is certainly nowhere close to the first game to have done such things. Every game with choices does it to an extent. The simple fact is that new content requires an incredible amount of work, and ME 3 packs more content into a 60 dollar game than 90% of games on the market already. I would have loved to see choices make huge impacts. I'm sure the developers would have loved it. But they don't have unlimited cash to pour into that.

Yes, they said some very foolish things pre-release, but that's really the a problem of advertising, not game content.

Yeah, I agree with pretty much everything there. That's why I put in the 2nd paragraph in my post

[Megaton_Hope]

Morlath wrote...

The Rachni situation isn't a cop-out, it's a moral choice in the first game about allowing a species to find redemption. There's no proof that the queen's egg was the only one found nor is there proof that she was the only one out there. Binary-Helix was run by Reaper indoctrinated Saren/Benezia which means anything they knew, Sovereign knew.

It's explicitly not a second egg, it's an engineered clone. The existence of which changes the dynamics of the original choice to a choice between no difference whatever I do and no difference whatever I do.

And really? You tell the Quarians not to start a war and you expect them to listen? They basically say "of course Shepard, anything you say Shepard, there's a good boy/girl Shepard." and send you packing with Tali. There's absolutely nothing in ME2 that even hints at them listening to the advice.

I'd expect them to "listen to Shepard" when their own people are ready to lynch them, yes. I have, of course, at this point revealed that the entire trial of Tali'Zorah was a sham put on for political reasons, in the process of saving a ship they'd given up for lost in a sentence they expect to kill both of us.

Things are not looking good for the admirals right then, and pushing the fleet into a war is a pretty dumb response, considering how popular having your homes holed in a vacuum must be. The admirals are basically asking to be thrown out a convenient airlock.

[Morlath]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

It's explicitly not a second egg, it's an engineered clone. The existence of which changes the dynamics of the original choice to a choice between no difference whatever I do and no difference whatever I do.

It doesn't invalidate the moral choice at all. Obviously you still end up fighting Rachni in ME3 but the moral choice remains what it was regardless.

]I'd expect them to "listen to Shepard" when their own people are ready to lynch them, yes. I have, of course, at this point revealed that the entire trial of Tali'Zorah was a sham put on for political reasons, in the process of saving a ship they'd given up for lost in a sentence they expect to kill both of us.

Things are not looking good for the admirals right then, and pushing the fleet into a war is a pretty dumb response, considering how popular having your homes holed in a vacuum must be. The admirals are basically asking to be thrown out a convenient airlock.

They put on trial the daughter of an Admiral and blamed her for her father's death. At what point do they give the impression that they care about anything bar their own opinions on the Geth?

[SpamBot2000]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

You mean the moral dilemma they were given 99.99% into the game? And judging by your comment on the Geth and EDI, you neatly avoided such a dilemma altogether. So why act like you were somehow tough enough to handle one?

For the record, I have to admit that I made a mistake in this post. I accidentally attributed an opinion regarding synthetic lifeforms to chemiclord because another poster had the same avatar. This was very sloppy of me, and I apologize.

The point about the moral dilemma remains, though. chemiclord spoke about "expecting an out" from the moral dilemma, but the whole problem is presented at the very end of the game. At what point are you able to "expect" anything out of it? Problems with the ending can't be because of mistaken expectations, because it was unexpected by design.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 12 mai 2013 - 07:45 .

[nos_astra]

Morlath wrote...
I agree.

For me, as much as I wanted Shepard to live, the "hero walking into the sunset with their loved one" doesn't cut it as a narrative when taken in context of the entire game/series. Regardless of the execution of the ending, I never once expected Shepard to come back Priority: Earth alive.

I actually expected Shepard to survive and lose his/her love interest (or at least die along with the majority of his/her crew as one of many). I wasn't sure they'd be uncreative enough to play the messiah-who-died-for-us angle twice. It was a disappointment and frankly a bit annoying. <_<

Modifié par klarabella, 12 mai 2013 - 07:48 .

[Morlath]

klarabella wrote...

Morlath wrote...
I agree.

For me, as much as I wanted Shepard to live, the "hero walking into the sunset with their loved one" doesn't cut it as a narrative when taken in context of the entire game/series. Regardless of the execution of the ending, I never once expected Shepard to come back Priority: Earth alive.

I actually expected Shepard to survive and lose his/her love interest (or at least die along with the majority of his/her crew as one of many). I wasn't sure they'd be uncreative enough to play the messiah-who-died-for-us angle twice. It was a disappointment and frankly a bit annoying. <_<

Twice? Did I miss something? ME1 was an obvious fake and ME2 was right at the beginning so you couldn't take it as a serious death.

[Bleachrude]

I would point out that the quarians would've won their war very easily and it actually makes sense given that at this point in time, the quarians would've been under the impression that the true geth rejected the old machines.

What nobody forecasted (and Legion himself seems ashamed about it) is that when faced with destruction, the geth would willingly jump in bed with the reapers.

[Indy_S]

Morlath wrote...

ME2 was right at the beginning so you couldn't take it as a serious death.

Something about "being reborn to save us in our hour of need" sounds messianic.

[nos_astra]

Morlath wrote...
And if you don't consider anything alive unless it fits your singular organic vision then that's your limited singular vision.

The difference between a brain and an AI is the hardware the electrical impulses run on.

And yet ME3 took the easy way out and made the AIs wannabe-organics:

- EDI is no longer a disembodied voice that imitates Joker's sense of humor, she is now a funny, hot fembot that fakes emotions so the organics like her better and jumps right into a heterosexual relationship with the the pilot that is supposed to make us go all d'aaaaaaaaw

- Granted, in ME2 LEGION already had the sentimentality crap welded on in form of a bit of Shepard's armor and the geth's awakening was conveniently marked by a geth unit asking about its soul because geth programs totally care for philosophy/theology and an individual soul despite their not being indivduals at all (I wonder whether L'Étoile was forced to write all of this or did write parts on his own account) but it was even more pronounced in ME3

It also makes me wonder if players are really as idealistic as the game wants them to feel about themselves. I have a suspicion that without the blatant antropomorphism the pragmatist side would win more often. 

Modifié par klarabella, 12 mai 2013 - 08:21 .

[Morlath]

Indy_S wrote...


Something about "being reborn to save us in our hour of need" sounds messianic.

Only if you want it to be.

TIM says it in the beginning about how Shepard is a better symbol alive than as a martyr.

[SpamBot2000]

Morlath wrote...

Indy_S wrote...


Something about "being reborn to save us in our hour of need" sounds messianic.

Only if you want it to be.

TIM says it in the beginning about how Shepard is a better symbol alive than as a martyr.

Got any examples of non-messianic rebirth to save us in our hour of need?

[nos_astra]

Morlath wrote...
Twice? Did I miss something? ME1 was an obvious fake and ME2 was right at the beginning so you couldn't take it as a serious death.

If you mean that it was pointless because sloppily excuted and rendered meaningless pretty quickly, yeah, I'd agree.

It still changed Shepard's status from a capable Alliance officer and N7 who was burdened with a vision and a job to do by accident to ZOMFG, UBER SPECIAL AWESOME CHOSEN ONE WHO WILL SINGLE-HANDEDLY SAVE THE GALAXY AFTER COMING BACK FROM THE DEAD.

And I'm saying that as a VS romancer. You know, one of the few people who actually felt some sort of lingering impact from this mild case of death that befell Shepard. 

The completely nutso speech from Miranda and TIM was enough messiah nonsense to last me a lifetime.

[Morlath]

klarabella wrote...

And yet ME3 took the easy way out and made the AIs wannabe-organics:

- EDI is no longer a disembodied voice that imitates Joker's sense of humor, she is now a funny, hot fembot that fakes emotions so the organics like her better and jumps right into a heterosexual relationship with the the pilot that is supposed to make us go all d'aaaaaaaaw

- Granted, in ME2 LEGION already had the sentimentality crap welded on in form of a bit of Shepard's armor and the geth's awakening was conveniently marked by a geth unit asking about its soul because geth programs totally care for philosophy/theology and an individual soul despite their not being indivduals at all (I wonder whether L'Ètoile was forced to write all of this or did write parts on his own account) but it was even more pronounced in ME3

It also makes me wonder if players are really as idealistic as the game wants them to feel about themselves. I have a suspicion that without the blatant antropomorphism the pragmatist side would win more often. 

I'm saying this right here right now about the EDI body thing and then dropping the topic. EDI's reasoning for taking the body makes sense and if anyone has a problem with the way Joker or anyone else comments on her physical body then I want to know why you aren't making threads about Ken in engineering doing his own sexual jokes. Right, because it's mostly easier to rag on the AI.

And at no point in either game does Legion or any Geth give the impression they want to "be a real boy". It's trying to make the player think about the philosophical and moral questions of what is life and do non-organic beings have the ability to be alive.

Geth - Does this unit have a soul?
Geth - Why are we not (like) organics?

Two totally different attitudes.

[Morlath]

klarabella wrote...

The completely nutso speech from Miranda and TIM was enough messiah nonsense to last me a lifetime.

Except it does make sense from an in-game perspective. It's given to us in ME1 (first human Spectre, massive honour, you're still an Alliance officer) and after the final battle Shepard is a figure humanity can rally around to show the rest of the galaxy that they aren't the barbarians/second class people they feel they're being treated as.

[nos_astra]

Morlath wrote...
I'm saying this right here right now about the EDI body thing and then dropping the topic. EDI's reasoning for taking the body makes sense and if anyone has a problem with the way Joker or anyone else comments on her physical body then I want to know why you aren't making threads about Ken in engineering doing his own sexual jokes. Right, because it's mostly easier to rag on the AI.

I'm not discussing sexism here. I'm discussing it from a meta perspective. EDI worked fine and was well-liked as the ships computer, a snarky AI that learned humor and developed a mutual appreciation with the organics on board. Not completely frsh but ok.

In ME1 we didn't see mechs and I'm not sure we were even given a hint that these sort of thing existed.
In ME2 we were given mechs because mechs are cool.
In ME3 we now have a special sort of cyborg, the only one in existence to my knowledge. A so-called infiltration unit, inhabited by an AI/VI that can successfully pass as fully human (something EDI can and does not despite her best efforts!) that conveniently crosses our path so EDI can use it to appear more human (and from a meta perspective little else).

Morlath wrote...
And at no point in either game does Legion or any Geth give the impression they want to "be a real boy". It's trying to make the player think about the philosophical and moral questions of what is life and do non-organic beings have the ability to be alive.

Geth - Does this unit have a soul?
Geth - Why are we not (like) organics?

Two totally different attitudes.

Where would the geth get the idea of a soul? Do quarians even believe in souls? What does "soul" mean to them and why is it important for them to have them? Do they really mean "the unit consisting of 100 max. runtimes has a soul" or every single geth program or the Geth Consensus as a whole?

Why would a writer have a geth unit ask for a soul? Because it's such a natural thing for a networked intelligence to concern itself with or because we players take such a philosophical question as a sign of true sentience which makes the supposedly completely alien AI a lot more approachable?

The Reaper code turns the geth into individuals and players naturally assume that this is a cool thing and some sort of development milestone for AIs everyone should be happy about. The player is not encouraged to wonder what it means for a networked intelligence (I imagine their intelligence and sentience is fluid like water) to be trapped on a platform , forever linked and melded into solid entities.

How would we feel if in order to survive we would have to connect our minds to a huge network and lose our indivduality? Better than death? Worse than death?

I don't know if I can make it any clearer.
EDI was a well treaded trope that was still fun. The geth were truly unique (with some issues the writer may have been forced to add). And ME3 drowned each of them in more antropomorphism and tired tropes. 

Modifié par klarabella, 12 mai 2013 - 08:59 .

[nos_astra]

Morlath wrote...

klarabella wrote...

The completely nutso speech from Miranda and TIM was enough messiah nonsense to last me a lifetime.

Except it does make sense from an in-game perspective. It's given to us in ME1 (first human Spectre, massive honour, you're still an Alliance officer) and after the final battle Shepard is a figure humanity can rally around to show the rest of the galaxy that they aren't the barbarians/second class people they feel they're being treated as.

No, it does not make sense.

The Battle of the Citadel is not that important for humans as most of them live on Earth and never have left or will leave it during their lifetime. Some humans (in their forties or fifties and older) even remember a time where there weren't any aliens and humans were all alone in the galaxy.

If ME was a bit more mature and a little less trashy, over-the-top comic book science fantasy then Shepard would be a name that popped up in the news now and then and then disappeared. 15 minutes of fame. The first human Spectre (given this status by political machinations) discovered Saren's plan to attack the Citadel, chased him across the galaxy and stopped him as he was about to open a secret relay. This enabled a fleet (that was somehow there instead of the actual Citadel fleet for reasons) to successfully destroy the giant dreadnought of unknown origin that had attached itself to the Citadel tower. And now the weather forcast for Monday...

And in order to kill Shepard like that they violated every rule of space combat they had established for the ME universe.

Modifié par klarabella, 12 mai 2013 - 09:00 .

[David7204]

The Battle of the Citadel is that important. Humanity joining the Council is that important.

Most humans live on Earth? Entirely irrelevant. It's completely obvious where humanity is going, and completely obvious that the Citadel and Council are going to be the center of that. It wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that's the most important political development in human history.

This is the development of the human race at stake. This effects everyone, including people on Earth. You know what happens to to economies that isolate themselves and don't trade? They fall behind. You know what happens to economies that engage in plenty of trade? They generally end up pretty wealthy.

Modifié par David7204, 12 mai 2013 - 09:06 .

[nos_astra]

David7204 wrote...

The Battle of the Citadel is that important.

Most humans live on Earth? Entirely irrelevent. It's completely obvious where humanity is going, and completely obvious that the Citadel and Council are going to be the center of that.

No, it's not. If the writing was less shallow it would keep in mind that Shepard's perspective is very unusual for humans. That the average human would not understand because what happens up there is out of touch with their world.

And this premises was really cool. I could spend hours trying to imagine how different the perspective must be for someone to living on Earth, on Mindoir or travelleing across the galaxy after joining the Systems Alliance. I'm really sorry that ME focussed so much on the perspective of the average 21st century game instead of reinforcing that this world is not ours.

Modifié par klarabella, 12 mai 2013 - 09:09 .

[David7204]

If you'd be stupid enough to think such developments wouldn't affect you, that's your business. But you're out of your mind if you think everyone else would be foolish enough to let the incredible opportunities such a thing would offer slip by. I can guarantee you I wouldn't. I can guarantee you plenty of people would consider such a thing a huge deal. And unless you decide to become a hermit, you better believe those things will affect you, whether you like it or not.

Modifié par David7204, 12 mai 2013 - 09:13 .

[jstme]

Morlath wrote...

jstme wrote...

But there is no need for tens of thousands of reaper ships,is there?

Even if the "Leviathan of Dis" died during the first Harvest that's 20, 000 cycles from then to ME3. That's at the very minimum 20,000 Reaper ships created from the ooze of previous cycles. Even if each cycle manages to whittle down the numbers, it's still conceivable to have that as over 10,000 actual Reapers (not including other ships) and that's a bare minimum number given data we have.

Why is it bare minimum? ME cycle ,even being nerfed in ME3, took down dozens of reaper ships (buffed in ME3),including at least 1 capital ship. ME cycle in ME3 is written to be just as unprepared as previous cycles were. Its technology is clearly not the best compared with other known cycles. 
Reapers create reaper ships to store genetic goo. Each ship is home to its own type of genetic goo,meaning - 1 civilization = 1 reaper ship.
Given the Reaper losses and number of starfaring civilizations in ME cycle, Reapers lost more ships then they could have gained.
Similar thing surely happened during some other cycles. So bare mimimum of reaper ships is 0,though its clearly not the case. However 10000 is not a bare mimimum,by far.   

[nos_astra]

David7204 wrote...
This is the development of the human race at stake. This effects everyone, including people on Earth. You know what happens to to economies that isolate themselves and don't trade? They fall behind. You know what happens to economies that engage in plenty of trade? They generally end up pretty wealthy. 

Humanity did not overhaul everything over the course of thirty years to try to catch up with a firmly established hierarchy and economy. They were self-sustaining before and I doubt intergalactic trade would be such a big thing so quickly.

Politiccal relations don't always have an impact on people's everyday life.

Some of the criticism that is leveled at ME is that it abandoned the humanity are the new guys idea for humans are important and special.

Modifié par klarabella, 12 mai 2013 - 09:19 .