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OXM Interview With Hudson, Everman, Gamble. “Lessons Learned.”


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#101
Morlath

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4stringwizard wrote...

angol fear wrote...

So we'll have only happy endings, no more logical endings? The writing in video game is not really high and we'll come back to that kind of writing. But I understand they need to sell games.


If you think the ending of ME3 was logical, you're insane. If you think the writing quality was even close to "high", you're even more insane.


Arrogant and rude, regardless of if it's the general perception on these boards.

The ending is both logical and fits into the overall structure of story that is the ME games. It makes sense and it fits.

The main problem with the ending is that it forces players to make a number of conclusions and jumps to piece it all together. The Catalyst works with the lore of the Reapers if people actually sit and think about it rather than just seeing them as giant techno-organic squid monsters from space. But the majority don't appear to want to make these logical jumps and would prefer all the information given to them on a nice silver platter.

However. I agree the writing and introduction needed to be worked on and the original scenes post-decision weren't helpful in giving any type of closure (especially with the Normandy scenes). But a bad execution of an idea does not make a bad idea.

#102
Reorte

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Morlath wrote...

The ending is both logical and fits into the overall structure of story that is the ME games. It makes sense and it fits.

No it does not.

#103
Ykulnu

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Reorte wrote...

Ykulnu wrote...

Holy Christ, how can they still be missing the point after an entire year?

This can't be on purpose. People liked the Citadel DLC because it was a fun sendoff for the characters, yes, but that wasn't the issue everyone had with the ending at all.

As long as they still seem to get some support from some people (who mostly aim for bashing the criticisors instead of their criticisms) it'll continue. That said, given that there's never any chance of admitting the possibility of any mistake directly it's possible that the point hasn't been missed. Only time will tell.


This is what separates devs like BioWare and From. From had some issues in Dark Souls, which they apologized sincerely for. They assured the fans that they would take the feedback and develop DS2 accordingly, highlighting specific issues for further accountability. 

BioWare continues to toss out red herrings and platitudes with no real substance or evidence to show that feedback is being taken seriously. 

#104
Reorte

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Talking of lessons learned, it'll also be interesting to see what's learned from other aspects. I'm thinking of multiplayer here, something I didn't want in ME3 yet turned out to be something I've really enjoyed.

#105
Kel Riever

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regarding the Morlath post:

1. Arrogant and rude, regardless of if it's the general perception on these boards.

Uh, no, not really.   Calling someone insane?  Not even on the radar.

2.The ending is both logical and fits into the overall structure of story that is the ME games. It makes sense and it fits.

What?  Okay, I guess they make sense....wait, no they don't at all.  Next.

3. The main problem with the ending is that it forces players to make a number of conclusions and jumps to piece it all together. The Catalyst works with the lore of the Reapers if people actually sit and think about it rather than just seeing them as giant techno-organic squid monsters from space. But the majority don't appear to want to make these logical jumps and would prefer all the information given to them on a nice silver platter.

However. I agree the writing and introduction needed to be worked on and the original scenes post-decision weren't helpful in giving any type of closure (especially with the Normandy scenes). But a bad execution of an idea does not make a bad idea.

Let me rewrite that for you:

The main problem with the ending is that it has no choice of merit in a game that prided itself on having players make choices, and failed to explain in any coherent sense the railroaded story you are told in which you lack a choice of merit. The Catalyst is a complete fabrication of nonsense that is completely exposed as such if people actually sit and think about it, rather than making all sorts of excuses in their head for it. But the majority like video games that are actually done well, and offer choices, go figure.

However. I agree the writing and introduction needed to be worked on and the original scenes post-decision weren't helpful in giving any type of closure (especially with the Normandy scenes). But a bad execution of an idea does not make a bad idea.  And there is nothing wrong with walking away from something that is poorly executed as a job not done.

Image IPB

Modifié par Kel Riever, 08 mai 2013 - 06:34 .


#106
PsyrenY

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Kel Riever wrote...

Calling someone insane?  Not even on the radar.


You're insane.

Kel Riever wrote...

What?  Okay, I guess they make sense....wait, no they don't at all.  Next.


Of course you don't get it. You're insane.

Kel Riever wrote...

The Catalyst is a complete fabrication of nonsense that is completely exposed as such if people actually sit and think about it, rather than making all sorts of excuses in their head for it.


Implying that those who support the Catalyst's logic simply aren't thinking. Typical BSN intellectual ghetto stance.

Nothing to see here. (Also, you're insane.)

#107
GroverA125

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JamesFaith wrote...

GroverA125 wrote...
...
There's a list of things that should not understood by a developer:
1) Do not remove the player's control of a situation unless completely necessary.
2) Players love boss fights. A boss fight is not the same as throwing three banshees at players, a boss fight is something new that requires good tactical thinking, teamwork collaboration and/or brutal efficiency to defeat.
3) Do not make multiple choice ending as a definite unless the choices are absolutes. If the community can say "yeah, but why didn't..." then you've not done it right. We should sit there and accept that it's the only way, and our choice should reflect our decision, not some that you thought would be cool and not reflect our character's opinions (don't bias the end towards one set of decisions)
4) Players like customisation, give them it.
5) Players like multiplayer, but next time put your back into it. Minigame-esque survival isn't the best it could be.
6) Players don't like petty DLCs, if you want to make DLCs, make them all sparkly-glowy. A player should WANT to buy them, not feel that completionism makes them want to get it.
7) More characters are nice. A good story has a character, race, faction, etc. that everyone can relate to. Preferably one who returns and doesn't die within the first five minutes of gameplay (goddammit Jenkins).
8) Shiny-ass sparkly lasers make everything better.
9) Except for when they're shooting the player. Give the player a psychological superiority against base enemies, and abolish that with superior ones. (make mooks have small, quiet weapons and specialists have loud, more fear-stirring ones).
10) People like to go medieval. As such, people love swords and crossbows in sci-fi almost as much as they like to feed their megalomania with gold weapons, armor, etc.
...



To be honest, next time write I instead players, because by using players you spoke about me too and:

2) I have no special love or hate for boss fight.
3) This would be always partially subjective, until it would be absolute 2 choice death/live.
5) I hate it and consider it necessary evil.
6) Always depend on particular DLC.
7) Too much is too much. My ideal number is from 6 to 8. ME2 was too crowded for me.
8) I hope this was just fun.
10) Not everytime and I'm both reader and writer of science-fantasy.



My apologies if I offended by using yourself as a point for an argument. I agree that my wording was a bit off, however is a general thing:
2) Sending one more enemy than usual isn't particularly special, when a developer makes a new big enemy at you that breaks the flow of combat for a while, that makes a moment feel special. You remember bosses, but sending a couple more enemies isn't so avidly remembered. It's just good practice, it's been around since the beginning of video games (not pac-man obviously, but almost all arcade games and retro games had bosses where applicable).
3) True, but again, a set of endings should not be considered absolute unless there are no other options. If it's not intended to be a "there's no other choice" situation, then it avoids these rules. The "double train-track" scenario is the best example I can think of. If you have a choice between which of the two tracks the train goes down, there's no middle way, but if you have a gun in your hand and you want to kill someone, then there's not two absolute ends to the situation, the possibilities are too wide for this rule to apply.
5) I misworded this one too. Multiplayer extends the life of a game drastically. I admit it doesn't belong in a few things (I would rather die than have a multiplayer skyrim), but if a developer is going to do it, a lot of people would prefer if you went all-out on it. There's no point going to do something and not going the whole distance you can make it go. Granted, ME3 MP was Bioware's first step into the MP world with mass effect, but if they would have put more effort in, devoted more resources and disk space, it could have been made to be a better, more long-living addition. Of course, this is provided that this can be done without inhibiting the singleplayer. MP should never harm the SP of a SP game.
6) Nobody wants to buy something because they feel that they are obliged to do so. It's like the Call of Duty/Halo scenario, everybody whines about how it's either too much the same or too different from what it was before, but they still go out and buy it anyway, although usually with a lot less joy than otherwise. A DLC should be something to rejoice about its release, not something that leaves a player going "Great, now I need to spend more money to get everything in the game".
7) Of course there's a limit. Too many ingredients in the recipe spoils the dish. The character count has to really make everyone happy though. There should always be that one character that someone likes. Nobody should be sat there saying "I don't like any of these people, whatsoever."
8) Yes, that was a joke. Kind of. You want a player to feel immersed, and utilizing explosions, screen motion and other techniques such as special action animations (eg. the Halo assassinate) make the game feel a little bit more immersive, realistic or smoother. I admit that realism can go too far, and so can unrealism due to too many sparkly-lasers flying about the screen, but usually there's a balance of which adding more makes it feel better than without.
10) I don't understand the megalomanical nature or most people (gold camo, weapons, and other cosmetic features that display "Skills". I'm not sure what it is, but they seem to hit us on a instinctive level. Look at star wars. Clone elite commandos running around with rifles, taking out an entire enemy base using precision and badass technique? Not bad. One jedi killing about seven people with a sword made out of a laser? Holy crap that's so much more badass. Same reason as with most games. Why use a gun or a grenade when you have a throwing knife? These things just kind of play on us. People like abnormal weapons, and in a world of thermal-clip rifles and mass effect field barriers, a blade or crossbow made out of energy seems to be that oddball that people like.

I'm not disagreeing with you on all these points, however there are a lot of things that communities seem to like and not like, I shouldn't claim to stand for all people, but these things seem to be a very common thing/complaint/etc. these days. These are what I see that stand out.

Modifié par GroverA125, 08 mai 2013 - 06:43 .


#108
dreamgazer

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Optimystic_X wrote...
 
Typical BSN intellectual ghetto stance.


You're not really going to try and make that a thing, are you?

#109
PsyrenY

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dreamgazer wrote...


How else should I respond to "No it doesn't make sense. Next!" Such people clearly have made up their minds and closed them to all further discussion.

"A wise man changes his mind sometimes, a fool never."

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 08 mai 2013 - 06:49 .


#110
Kel Riever

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Optimystic_X wrote...

Kel Riever wrote...

Calling someone insane?  Not even on the radar.


You're insane.

Kel Riever wrote...

What?  Okay, I guess they make sense....wait, no they don't at all.  Next.


Of course you don't get it. You're insane.

Kel Riever wrote...

The Catalyst is a complete fabrication of nonsense that is completely exposed as such if people actually sit and think about it, rather than making all sorts of excuses in their head for it.


Implying that those who support the Catalyst's logic simply aren't thinking. Typical BSN intellectual ghetto stance.

Nothing to see here. (Also, you're insane.)


I may be insane, which I actually don't necessarily consider a real dis.  But I would simply cite the number of people accusing other users of not thinking rests heavily on the side of the ending fanbois.  And despite the attempt at coloring me with that brush, you are simply providing evidence for my theory.  Image IPB

In my insanity, I find the inability to distinguish worthwhile work from a personal preference for things to also be a hallmark of the fanboi crowd, and the gulf of misunderstanding with that group is as vast as the posts they make in this forum are deep...

Modifié par Kel Riever, 08 mai 2013 - 06:51 .


#111
PsyrenY

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Kel Riever wrote...

I may be insane, which I actually don't necessarily consider a real dis. 


Of course you don't, you're-

:innocent:

#112
Kel Riever

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YES. But loving in my discussion. Woot!

Now watch out, because often it takes one to know one.  Got anything you want to admit?Image IPB

Modifié par Kel Riever, 08 mai 2013 - 06:52 .


#113
Morlath

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Kel Riever wrote...

regarding the Morlath post:

1. Arrogant and rude, regardless of if it's the general perception on these boards.

Uh, no, not really. Calling someone insane? Not even on the radar.


Calling someone insane for believing something that is different to you? That's considered rude in almost any situation and the only times it's not are when the beliefs are defended with an almost

Let me rewrite that for you:

....


Actually don't. I don't need to rewrite my words into something you believe simply because you disagree with me.

Reorte wrote...
No it does not.


- The Reapers aren't totally organic, they aren't "gods" and regardless of what Sovereign says they aren't every lasting with no beginning or end. ME2 shows how Reapers can be made which means someone had to have made them in the first place.

- The cycle is deliberate and isn't just whenever the Reapers can be bothered to show up. This means there's a method to the madness and reasoning (no matter how flawed) behind it. Especially when you including the deliberate wiping of evidence of previous cycles.

- "Salvation through destruction" is used by (I believe) Harbinger. This is essentially the flawed logic of the Catalyst and the Reapers.

As for the taking away of choices at the end of the game. It's a game about intergalactic war and the potential extinction of all the space-flight species within by living machines. The only "option" at the end of the game that is (potentially) a left turn is synthesis. You either destroy these machine creatures or find a way of controlling them. And then synthesis is hinted at being the final goal of the Reapers anyway so it makes sense for that to be thrown in.

#114
Kel Riever

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@Morlath. Of the two of us, I think you need to lighten up the most. :)

#115
PsyrenY

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Don't bother Morlath, he is happy in the ghetto. You're wasting your energy.

Oh look, not a single response to any of the cogent points raised. Prosecution rests.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 08 mai 2013 - 06:55 .


#116
Kel Riever

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Optimystic_X wrote...

Don't bother Morlath, he is happy in the ghetto. You're wasting your energy.

 
Au contraire!  I am wasting my time with you!  But I digress...Image IPB

#117
Morlath

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Optimystic_X wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...


How else should I respond to "No it doesn't make sense. Next!" Such people clearly have made up their minds and closed them to all further discussion.

"A wise man changes his mind sometimes, a fool never."


The reverse is true for saying it doesn't.

However I do see why people don't like it and why they don't think it makes sense (even if I personally believe the information is mostly all there). And I fully agree, and have stated before, that the writing of the ending has a lot to do with the dissatisfaction people have.

#118
GreyLycanTrope

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dreamgazer wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
 
Typical BSN intellectual ghetto stance.


You're not really going to try and make that a thing, are you?

The Wulfie is strong in that one.

#119
eddieoctane

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JamesFaith wrote...


Don't forget that you are speaking about product with features which are creation of artist. Thing you told can be applied on shoes, cars or food in restaurant, but not here.

If problem was in some major technical part of game like graphic or sound problems, they should fix it, because it would be objective flaw. Here your points would be valid.

But problem here was with story. And how many books you know which were changed after released? Or movies (don't speak about test audience, which is part of creative process)? Did you ever come to bookshop and demand new version of book because you ddidn't like its ending and want it fixed? Or demand change of music in some movie?


Major films get test screened and altered to appeal to more of the movie-going public. Music publishers regularly tweak the lyrics and sound of songs for one reason or another, often to the chagrin of the bands and/or songwriters who created the music. Video games by and large have more in common with summer blockbusters than art-house flicks. And there in lies the problem. Right now, a lot of developers want to believe that everything about their game is art and thus the final product is a work of art. The truth is far different.

The video game is an art medium, just as film is. However, The Hangover is not Citizen Cane. This Image IPB is not the Mona Lisa. Understanding that games from places like EA, though they have artistic qualities, are first and foremost a product is crucial here. Journey is far more artistic than anything BioWare has ever done. Yet even that was produced under a contract to make art games for Sony. So when you try to defend the "art" of a game as being immune to changes, you need to consider how often consumer art is changed for the consumer. If Mass Effect was financed by the developers themselves with an understanding that they might not make a cent on it, you'd have ground to stand on. But it was made as a product that should meet consumer demands.

#120
Morlath

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Kel Riever wrote...

@Morlath. Of the two of us, I think you need to lighten up the most. :)


Probably. It's a crazy week right now.

Still doesn't change my general dislike to the automatic "fanboy/idiot" attitude of people towards anyone who actually
sees some sense in the endings. From a creative perspective it's possible to see where the ideas for the ending came from when you take all three games into consideration.

When I watch a film with a great premise but poor execution, I don't say it doesn't make sense to me. I say it's poor executed but you can see what the makers of the film were going for. To me it's the same concept.

#121
AresKeith

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Morlath wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...


How else should I respond to "No it doesn't make sense. Next!" Such people clearly have made up their minds and closed them to all further discussion.

"A wise man changes his mind sometimes, a fool never."


The reverse is true for saying it doesn't.

However I do see why people don't like it and why they don't think it makes sense (even if I personally believe the information is mostly all there). And I fully agree, and have stated before, that the writing of the ending has a lot to do with the dissatisfaction people have.


And the execution for some also

#122
Kel Riever

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Optimystic_X wrote...

Don't bother Morlath, he is happy in the ghetto. You're wasting your energy.

Oh look, not a single response to any of the cogent points raised. Prosecution rests.



Listen, stop self depricating.  Just because you can't comprehend the points I laid out doesn't mean that you haven't made a single response to any of my cogent points.  I think of you much more highly than that, and even if you can't make coherent arguements yourserf now, doesn't meant that one day you won't.  My first recommendation is to use a dictionary and look up all the words I used with more than two syllables.  When you are done, come back, and we can talk.

I know you won't thank me now, but you will later.  So I'll pre-empt by saying you are welcome! Image IPB

#123
Bill Casey

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How did they design the crucible to incorporate the catalyst if they don't know what the catalyst is?

#124
dreamgazer

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Oh, good. Another comparison between artistic extremes.

Image IPB

This isn't the Mona Lisa either.

And Mass Effect is neither Citizen Kane nor The Hangover.

#125
Clayless

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Bill Casey wrote...

How did they design the crucible to incorporate the catalyst if they don't know what the catalyst is?


It's possible that another race did. The Protheans basically did, and they were handed down that information from a previous cycle just like ours.