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[Mr.House]

dreamgazer wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Alright, this thread has discussed the Joker and Bioshock Infinite.

Really? How do they fit into this?

I honestly lost track of how Bioshock: Infinite came into the equation. Endings with elaborate logic maybe?

The Joker discussion actually made some sense.  It was about the vagueness of villains and whether the Reapers' motives should've been left a mystery. 

ME3s ending had elaborate logic?

[yukon fire]

Hmm, what? Mass Effect, yeah... it's still crap.

[dreamgazer]

Mr.House wrote...
ME3s ending had elaborate logic?

Does circular count as elaborate? 

[dreamgazer]

yukon fire wrote...

Hmm, what? Mass Effect, yeah... it's still crap.

Nah. Not too satisfying or logical of an ending, though.

Did you learn your lesson, BioWare? About your audience?

[The Heretic of Time]

J. Reezy wrote...

I agree with the notion that keeping the Reapers' motivation unknown would have been better for the series. 

I second this. BioWare repeatedly said that the wanted the reapers to be something that could come from an H.P. Lovecraft novel.

Well, last time I checked, Cthulhu and his friends didn't have their origin and motivations explained. The mystery and the unknown is what makes H.P. Lovecraft's work awesome.

[Argolas]

J. Reezy wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Alright, this thread has discussed the Joker and Bioshock Infinite.

Really? How do they fit into this?

I honestly lost track of how Bioshock: Infinite came into the equation. Endings with elaborate logic maybe?

The Joker discussion actually made some sense.  It was about the vagueness of villains and whether the Reapers' motives should've been left a mystery. 

That does seem like it would be a good basis of discussion. No one complains about not knowing exactly why the Joker does what he does.  I agree with the notion that keeping the Reapers' motivation unknown would have been better for the series. 

After ME2, I simply assumed that the Reapers' motivation for the harvest is more Reapers and that's all. I never needed them to be complex. The story was about Shepard, his/her crew and various other characters, never about the Reapers.

[Mr.House]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

I agree with the notion that keeping the Reapers' motivation unknown would have been better for the series. 

I second this. BioWare repeatedly said that the wanted the reapers to be something that could come from an H.P. Lovecraft novel.

Well, last time I checked, Cthulhu and his friends didn't have their origin and motivations explained. The mystery and the unknown is what makes H.P. Lovecraft's work awesome.

Morra is a better hommage to Cthulhu

[AresKeith]

dreamgazer wrote...

yukon fire wrote...

Hmm, what? Mass Effect, yeah... it's still crap.

Nah. Not too satisfying or logical of an ending, though.

Did you learn your lesson, BioWare? About your audience?

Well they learned that people get attached to the characters and story

[dreamgazer]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

I agree with the notion that keeping the Reapers' motivation unknown would have been better for the series. 

I second this. BioWare repeatedly said that the wanted the reapers to be something that could come from an H.P. Lovecraft novel.

Well, last time I checked, Cthulhu and his friends didn't have their origin and motivations explained. The mystery and the unknown is what makes H.P. Lovecraft's work awesome.

dreamgazer wrote...

Not a fan of ending the series with a MEHEM situation, but I really would've preferred that they leave the Reapers' motives open to interpretation---largely because I dug my contemplations about why they suppressed civilization, and who was in the pilot's seat, more than what was presented.  

I had nothing concrete, only vague notions about civilization's overgrowth, loss of control over technology, and a grand design.  And I liked it like that; it was enough for a series such as this.

[AresKeith]

Argolas wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Alright, this thread has discussed the Joker and Bioshock Infinite.

Really? How do they fit into this?

I honestly lost track of how Bioshock: Infinite came into the equation. Endings with elaborate logic maybe?

The Joker discussion actually made some sense.  It was about the vagueness of villains and whether the Reapers' motives should've been left a mystery. 

That does seem like it would be a good basis of discussion. No one complains about not knowing exactly why the Joker does what he does.  I agree with the notion that keeping the Reapers' motivation unknown would have been better for the series. 

After ME2, I simply assumed that the Reapers' motivation for the harvest is more Reapers and that's all. I never needed them to be complex. The story was about Shepard, his/her crew and various other characters, never about the Reapers.

That's what I got from the Reapers too, and I also assumed they would do more about Dark Space too

[David7204]

A simple question:

Should the Reapers have an at least somewhat legitimate motive?

[Argolas]

David7204 wrote...

A simple question:

Should the Reapers have an at least somewhat legitimate motive?

If it makes sense, yes.

One of my theories was that they actually are better than organics, realize the suffering and corruption all over the galaxy and indeed believe their 'ascension' to be a 'salvation' for everyone. Maybe it even is. We stand against it anyway because we want to keep our own form. The reapers think we merely don't understand and force us.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

A simple question:

Should the Reapers have an at least somewhat legitimate motive?

No, because the motives people have in their heads are usually more interesting than what's presented.

You will, of course, get different answers to your question.

[Mr.House]

Argolas wrote...

David7204 wrote...

A simple question:

Should the Reapers have an at least somewhat legitimate motive?

If it makes sense, yes.

One of my theories was that they actually are better than organics, realize the suffering and corruption all over the galaxy and indeed believe their 'ascension' to be a 'salvation' for everyone. Maybe it even is. We stand against it anyway because we want to keep our own form. The reapers think we merely don't understand and force us.

Bingo. That is what I always thought with the conversations from Sovie and Harby. They did not need a complex motivation. This would have been fine, instead....

[David7204]

That's not good enough.

What I mean is a motive that a reasonable player would have a fair chance of considering legitimate. That means you, assuming you consider yourself reasonable. Nobody is going to think "The Reapers murder and torture trillions of people because they don't want them to suffer." is legitimate.

Modifié par David7204, 14 mai 2013 - 06:02 .

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

That's not good enough.

What I mean is a motive that a reasonable player would have a fair chance of considering legitimate. That means you, assuming you consider yourself reasonable. .

So you don't think any of us are reasonable players because we view our motives for the Reapers are legit

Nobody is going to think "The Reapers murder and torture trillions of people because they don't want them to suffer." is legitimate.

That's basically what happens anyway

[IanPolaris]

David7204 wrote...

That's not good enough.

What I mean is a motive that a reasonable player would have a fair chance of considering legitimate. That means you, assuming you consider yourself reasonable. Nobody is going to think "The Reapers murder and torture trillions of people because they don't want them to suffer." is legitimate.

Which may mean we aren't 'advanced' enough to understand them.  I've always felt that the Reapers were best left as a mystery with regard to their precise motives.  They are ancient, malign, extremely advanced and unknowable....and knowing them doesn't matter, stopping them does.

-Polaris

[David7204]

So that's a no, then? You're saying the Reapers should not have a legitimate motive?

[Argolas]

David7204 wrote...

That's not good enough.

What I mean is a motive that a reasonable player would have a fair chance of considering legitimate. That means you, assuming you consider yourself reasonable. Nobody is going to think "The Reapers murder and torture trillions of people because they don't want them to suffer." is legitimate.

What if the Catalyst (or preferably Harbinger) as the Avatar of the Reapers had demonstrated their point by showing Shepard a glimpse of what being part of a Reaper is like? What if it actually is better? We'd have an "Utopia justifies the means" villain and that's good enough IMO.

You can even add a little backstory. Example: A faction of Leviathans started to improve themselves with technology, little by little they changed themselves until they became the Reapers. Realizing that they were stronger, more intelligent and basically flawless, they developed the 'harvest', a method that allows every kind of organic to 'ascend' to be one of them, thus share their perfection. However, the other Leviathans and the thrall races resisted, tried to destroy the Reapers, but they won and forced the 'ascension' on the others. After they had 'ascended', they all approved. The Reapers judged that it would be like that every time: Organics fear change, resist, but embrace perfection after they reached it. This was how the Cycle began.

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

A simple question:

Should the Reapers have an at least somewhat legitimate motive?

Try this:

The reapers started the same way as the geth, but billions of years ago.

The reapers are what the geth could become if they destroyed the quarians and we allowed them to upload themselves to the mega-structure they were building.

[David7204]

What do you think? Would you agree with the Reapers then?

You did just say it is better, after all.

Modifié par David7204, 14 mai 2013 - 06:19 .

[Megaton_Hope]

J. Reezy wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Alright, this thread has discussed the Joker and Bioshock Infinite.

Really? How do they fit into this?

Joker (The Dark Knight's Joker, who "just wants to watch the world burn") was brought up as an example of a character whose motive for doing what he does is unknown and possibly unknowable. Because whether the Reapers need or benefit by having a motive has been a major topic of debate.

Personally I think they they don't need one and shouldn't have one, and the one they wound up with is terrible.

No idea at all what brought Bioshock into this. Are there Reapers in Bioshock now?

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

So that's a no, then? You're saying the Reapers should not have a legitimate motive?

They needed to conduct their business, from start to finish, in a way that allowed for multiple interpretations about why they're preventing organic life from progressing beyond a certain point---why all of this has happened before, and why all of it will happen again.

Simple motive, with hints at complex possibilities as to exactly "why".