1470 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

If the audience doesn't know about it, it doesn't exist.

Disagreed, at least in this instance. 

[IanPolaris]

David7204 wrote...

If the audience doesn't know about it, it doesn't exist.

Alfred hitchcock (see Psycho) would strongly disagree with you.  You can imply a lot to an audience without showing much at all.  classic Horror is full of this.

-Polaris

[Shadowvalker]

Hmm..

I am a bit concerned that they dont seem to mention all the messed up lore in their story as a problem.

An example:
On Tuchanka we needed Kalros to take down a destroyer reaper.
On Rannoch we needed the hole goddamn Quarian fleet.
On Earth we suddenly just needed hand held heavy weapons to take down a destroyer reapersized anitair weapon ONLY to end up having to MUST use thanix missils on the last one?

But I guess that "details" dosen't matter that much as long as the cinematic outcome looks good!!

[IanPolaris]

Shadowvalker wrote...

Hmm..

I am a bit concerned that they dont seem to mention all the messed up lore in their story as a problem.

An example:
On Tuchanka we needed Kalros to take down a destroyer reaper.
On Rannoch we needed the hole goddamn Quarian fleet.
On Earth we suddenly just needed hand held heavy weapons to take down a destroyer reapersized anitair weapon ONLY to end up having to MUST use thanix missils on the last one?

But I guess that "details" dosen't matter that much as long as the cinematic outcome looks good!!

Actually it's a disturbing trend I've noticed lately with Bioware games in general.  DA2 has the same problems with lore consistancy.  Honestly I think a lot of it boils down to editing.  This implies either a lack of time/resources to do the job right, or a lack of caring or both.

These sound like nitpicking details....and they are....but smudboy is actually right about this:  If you are going to involve the PC in a socratic type story and expect him (or her) to make powerful, morally meaningful decisions, then the details matter.  Otherwise the protagonist is unable to generate enough of an ethical construction to make a valid moral choice.

-Polaris

[jstme]

David7204 wrote...

For the ending to be knocked out of the park, a motive is necessary.

Dragon Age:Origins never really explained the blight, there are chantry myths and hints that those myths are wrong so you never know what is the motive for darkspawn. Ending is awesome.

[David7204]

Dragon Age: Origins is not Mass Effect, is it?

[Megaton_Hope]

David7204 wrote...
Mass Effect is unique.

No it isn't. Nothing that happens in Mass Effect is unprecedented. Nothing whatsoever.

[Argolas]

David7204 wrote...

Dragon Age: Origins is not Mass Effect, is it?

Heh, no, but Dragon Age 2 tries to.

Modifié par Argolas, 14 mai 2013 - 08:51 .

[jstme]

David7204 wrote...

Dragon Age: Origins is not Mass Effect, is it?

No doubt about that. But principle that one does not need to know the real motive for Big Bad actions for the ending to be satisfying - is the same.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

David7204 wrote...

BioShock Infinite doesn't really have to worry about plotholes. Because any time one comes up, they can just wave their hands and say "Quantum physics! It doesn't have to make sense!"

Assassin's Creed is of the same mold. Something doesn't make sense? Templers! Animus! Or Inception. Doesn't make sense? It's a dream. Doesn't have to make sense.

Well, that's great for them. But that really shouldn't be confused with good writing.

You're saying BioShock Infinite and Inception aren't fine examples of marvelous writing? No, worse, you're implying BioShock Infinite and Inception are poorly written. Is that what you're saying?

Well, at the least, that's what I would say about Infinite, though quite a few people have rallied against Inception as well. You seem a bit shocked. Does it really bother you that much for somone to crap on something you enjoy, as opposed to the typical "I hate Bioware" posts we see on a daily basis?

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 14 mai 2013 - 11:33 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

David7204 wrote...

The Reapers are immensely powerful and advanced enemies. But unlike other stories such as Lovecraft that are content to have them beyond the grasp of the characters, our protagonist isn't helpless. Mass Effect demonstates a strong theme time and time again, that we can do something. That we can challenge them and even beat them.

Why exactly did this make understanding them a necessity? We demonstrated in Mass Effect 1 with Sovereign and (to a lesser extent) the human Reaper in ME2 that we can defeat them without understanding them. See also the Reapers on Tuchanka, Rannoch, Leviathan, etc. Aside from my own personal curiosity, I see no reason why we needed a Reaper motive.

Hell, as of ME1 at least, there were people considering whether we were going to defeat the Reapers with conventional warfare and that ME2 would be spent either gathering/discovering/inventing the tools needed for this end. You can understand your enemy and still be helpless. And you can also not understand your enemy, but still be capable of defeating them.

This is precisly the same problem. At the moment it matters absolutely most, at the question that players are the most curious about, we throw our hands up and say "Nope! Can't do it! Too advanced! Too complicated! We're just too stupid to ever comprehend them!" It's the same reason that people hate the endings now - A betrayal of the themes that constitute the series. Nowhere near as bad as the endings, but nevertheless a very substantial problem.

There is some truth to this, especially pre-EC. Particularly between ME1 and ME2 (and earlier Bioware games), Bioware has often been known for providing mountains of exposition. Sometimes even too much exposition. We see this with Vigil in ME1 where Shepard has the ability to play twenty questions about unnecessary details, when we know that Saren is about to murder everything we know. But I think the ending of ME3 was the wrong time to go artsy and try to abandon exposition as their method of giving information, especially since the Catalyst introduces an insanely controversial claim, without the player able to dispute his reasoning in the way that we'd always been able to up until this point.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 14 mai 2013 - 11:18 .

[The Heretic of Time]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

David7204 wrote...

BioShock Infinite doesn't really have to worry about plotholes. Because any time one comes up, they can just wave their hands and say "Quantum physics! It doesn't have to make sense!"

Assassin's Creed is of the same mold. Something doesn't make sense? Templers! Animus! Or Inception. Doesn't make sense? It's a dream. Doesn't have to make sense.

Well, that's great for them. But that really shouldn't be confused with good writing.

You're saying BioShock Infinite and Inception aren't fine examples of marvelous writing? No, worse, you're implying BioShock Infinite and Inception are poorly written. Is that what you're saying?

Well, at the least, that's what I would say about Infinite, though quite a few people have rallied against Inception as well. You seem a bit shocked. Does it really bother you that much for somone to crap on something you enjoy, as opposed to the typical "I hate Bioware" posts we see on a daily basis?

I'm not shocked, I'm surprised. BioShock Infinite's and Inception's quality of writing are both leagues beyond anything BioWare has ever written. They're not perfect, but the vast majority agrees that both Infinite and Inception are marvelous in terms of writing and presentation. They're generally used as prime examples of modern games and movies with well-written plots.

It might be too soon to say, but I predict: BioShock Infinite, GOTY 2013. Mark my words.

as opposed to the typical "I hate Bioware" posts we see on a daily basis? 

There is a good reason for that. Most of always hated EA and the way they do business. BioWare is now part of EA.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 14 mai 2013 - 12:05 .

[megamacka]

[Seboist]

David7204 wrote...

Dragon Age: Origins is not Mass Effect, is it?

Definitely isn't, it's a proper RPG whose choices wipe the floor with the entire ME trilogy.

Battle of Denerim > Battle of Earth

[The Heretic of Time]

Robosexual wrote...

Tbh it would be pretty crappy if the Reapers just did things for no reason. Mentioning the Joker, even he did things because he enjoyed it.

Not knowing the motvations of the Big Bad =/= the Big Bad not having any motivations.

Whatever the reaper's motivations are, it should have been stayed a mystery to us. The reapers are supposed to be beyond our comprehension. By keeping their motives a mystery, you keep the illusion of the reapers being incomprehensible.

Revealing their motivations, and you do not only lose the illusion of the reapers being incomprehensible, you also risk the chance of it being unsatisfying. This is exactly what happened in ME3. The reapers went from incomprehensible creatures of your nightmare, to stupid drones ordered around by a stupid A.I. with craptastic logic. And there goes my suspension of disbelief... *FLUSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH* down the toilet.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 14 mai 2013 - 12:16 .

[David7204]

You either risk it being unsatisfying, or guarantee with certainly that it will be unsatisfying.

"The Reapers are supposed to be incomprehensible." Why? Because they say so? They're incredibly powerful, but they can still be taken out. Likewise, they can still be very ancient and mysterious and still within comprehension.

Modifié par David7204, 14 mai 2013 - 12:18 .

[David7204]

Good thing for quantum physics, huh?

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I'm not shocked, I'm surprised. BioShock Infinite's and Inception's quality of writing are both leagues beyond anything BioWare has ever written. They're not perfect, but the vast majority agrees that both Infinite and Inception are marvelous in terms of writing and presentation. They're generally used as prime examples of modern games and movies with well-written plots.

Sure, to some. But argumentum ad popularum is considered a fallacy. As it stands, I thought Inception was a great movie (though still Nolan's worst with the exception of Insomnia), but had some extremely awkward dialogue. The South Park episode Insheeption really captures alot the problems I have with the film.

"Just because an idea is overly convoluted and complex, doesn't make it cool"

It might be too soon to say, but I predict: BioShock Infinite, GOTY 2013. Mark my words.

This is a distinct possibility, unfortunately.

There is a good reason for that. Most of always hated EA and the way they do business. BioWare is now part of EA.

Sure, but then I'd argue that there was good reason to hate Bioware pre-EA. Bioware made Baldur's Gate 1 and Neverwinter Nights without any input from the big bad publisher. And I'd say those were far worse than anything they made post-EA. Just as I think there are many grounds on which to hate Bioshock Infinite or Inception.

I don't see anything wrong with hating Bioware games or even post-EA Bioware games. I just find the reversal amusing that many posters suddenly find themselves on the defensive.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 14 mai 2013 - 12:32 .

[Sejborg]

David7204 wrote...

You either risk it being unsatisfying, or guarantee with certainly that it will be unsatisfying.

"The Reapers are supposed to be incomprehensible." Why? Because they say so? They're incredibly powerful, but they can still be taken out. Likewise, they can still be very ancient and mysterious and still within comprehension.

Agreed. The reapers should have been left unexplained. 

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

You either risk it being unsatisfying, or guarantee with certainly that it will be unsatisfying.

That's bull. 

"The Reapers are supposed to be incomprehensible." Why? Because they say so?

Yes indeed, because they say so. If it turns out the most advanced species in the galaxy, of which each individual member is a starship with the collective consciousness of an entire race, turn out the be nothing more than petty liars, that. would be pretty damn unsatisfying. Actually, that is pretty damn unsatisfying.

As it stands now, with the reveal of the reapers motivation, is pretty damn unsatisfying.

They're incredibly powerful, but they can still be taken out. Likewise, they can still be very ancient and mysterious and still within comprehension.

Their A.I. leader spelling out their origins and motivations to the protagonist is not very mysterious though.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I'm not shocked, I'm surprised. BioShock Infinite's and Inception's quality of writing are both leagues beyond anything BioWare has ever written. They're not perfect, but the vast majority agrees that both Infinite and Inception are marvelous in terms of writing and presentation. They're generally used as prime examples of modern games and movies with well-written plots.

It might be too soon to say, but I predict: BioShock Infinite, GOTY 2013. Mark my words.

Bioshock 1 > Infinite and Memento > Inception, tbh.

They're all far better than ME3's main plot for sure, though.

Just rewatched Memento. Fantastic movie. Of course, it can't touch the Prestige in my heart.

[David7204]

Sejborg wrote...

David7204 wrote...

You either risk it being unsatisfying, or guarantee with certainly that it will be unsatisfying.

"The Reapers are supposed to be incomprehensible." Why? Because they say so? They're incredibly powerful, but they can still be taken out. Likewise, they can still be very ancient and mysterious and still within comprehension.

Agreed. The reapers should have been left unexplained. 

I don't think you'd been reading what I've written. I'm arguing leaving the Reapers unexplained would have been awful.

[IanPolaris]

David7204 wrote...

Sejborg wrote...

David7204 wrote...

You either risk it being unsatisfying, or guarantee with certainly that it will be unsatisfying.

"The Reapers are supposed to be incomprehensible." Why? Because they say so? They're incredibly powerful, but they can still be taken out. Likewise, they can still be very ancient and mysterious and still within comprehension.

Agreed. The reapers should have been left unexplained. 

I don't think you'd been reading what I've written. I'm arguing leaving the Reapers unexplained would have been awful.

I suspect they understood your position perfectly.  From what I am reading, it would simply seem they don't agree with you.

-Polaris

[KingZayd]

David7204 wrote...

You either risk it being unsatisfying, or guarantee with certainly that it will be unsatisfying.

"The Reapers are supposed to be incomprehensible." Why? Because they say so? They're incredibly powerful, but they can still be taken out. Likewise, they can still be very ancient and mysterious and still within comprehension.

And the Starchild guaranteed it would be unsatisfying.