1470 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

Debate's good for you. It teaches you to think.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

And that opinion has absolutely nothing to do with a comparison to the Reaper motive in ME 3?

Depends on whether you consider curiosity to be necessity, among other factors.

I was curious enough to consider possibilities, but I ultimately didn't need to know.

[David7204]

That doesn't like much more than mild acceptance to me.

It doesn't sound to me like you would be in the crowd demanding the Reapers can't have a motive. It sounds to me like you were open to possibilities either way.

Modifié par David7204, 14 mai 2013 - 02:13 .

[Clayless]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Tbh it would be pretty crappy if the Reapers just did things for no reason. Mentioning the Joker, even he did things because he enjoyed it.

Not knowing the motvations of the Big Bad =/= the Big Bad not having any motivations.

Whatever the reaper's motivations are, it should have been stayed a mystery to us. The reapers are supposed to be beyond our comprehension. By keeping their motives a mystery, you keep the illusion of the reapers being incomprehensible.

Revealing their motivations, and you do not only lose the illusion of the reapers being incomprehensible, you also risk the chance of it being unsatisfying. This is exactly what happened in ME3. The reapers went from incomprehensible creatures of your nightmare, to stupid drones ordered around by a stupid A.I. with craptastic logic. And there goes my suspension of disbelief... *FLUSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH* down the toilet.

No motivation = No motivation.

"You wont be able to comprehend our motivation" doesn't mean they secretly have a motivation that we wont comprehend, it means they have no motivation. It means the writer sat down and decided to write nothing.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

Debate's good for you. It teaches you to think.

Berating the alternate position and those presenting it, then passing it off as "debate", isn't.

[David7204]

Berating the alternative position is a completely legitimate technique, so long as it's based on valid reasoning and evidence. What exactly do you think parody and satire are?

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

Debate's good for you. It teaches you to think.

And when do you ever debate?

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

It doesn't sound to me like you would be in the crowd demanding the Reapers can't have a motive. It sounds to me like you were open to possibilities either way.

As an means of interpretation, yes.

I enjoyed the element of "fumbling in ignorance", though.

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

Berating the alternative position is a completely legitimate technique, so long as it's based on valid reasoning and evidence. What exactly do you think parody and satire are?

Because parody and satire as such great ways of debating a subject.

I know, I know, I'm the king of parodies, satire and hyperboles, and I would be the first to admit that. At least I don't pretend to be actually trying to engage in an intellectual debate here (lol @ the thought of an intellectual debate on BSN).

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 14 mai 2013 - 02:17 .

[David7204]

Whatever you want to call it. It teaches you to see flaws in arguments and strengthen your own. It teaches you to root out the reasoning behind emotions.

[The Heretic of Time]

Robosexual wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Tbh it would be pretty crappy if the Reapers just did things for no reason. Mentioning the Joker, even he did things because he enjoyed it.

Not knowing the motvations of the Big Bad =/= the Big Bad not having any motivations.

Whatever the reaper's motivations are, it should have been stayed a mystery to us. The reapers are supposed to be beyond our comprehension. By keeping their motives a mystery, you keep the illusion of the reapers being incomprehensible.

Revealing their motivations, and you do not only lose the illusion of the reapers being incomprehensible, you also risk the chance of it being unsatisfying. This is exactly what happened in ME3. The reapers went from incomprehensible creatures of your nightmare, to stupid drones ordered around by a stupid A.I. with craptastic logic. And there goes my suspension of disbelief... *FLUSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH* down the toilet.

No motivation = No motivation.

"You wont be able to comprehend our motivation" doesn't mean they secretly have a motivation that we wont comprehend, it means they have no motivation. It means the writer sat down and decided to write nothing.

That's simply not true. A writer can decide that the motivation of the reapers in incomprehensible, and therefor make the delibarate choice to not write much (or anything) about the reaper's motivation, because writing down an incomprehensible motivation is a paradox and impossible.

At the art university in The Netherlands where I study I've been thought "de kunst van het weglaten". It literally means "the art of omission". It means that sometimes deliberately leaving things out can create a better experience. Sometimes it's better to leave things to the imagination of the audience, such as the reaper's motivation.

[Clayless]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

No motivation = No motivation.

"You wont be able to comprehend our motivation" doesn't mean they secretly have a motivation that we wont comprehend, it means they have no motivation. It means the writer sat down and decided to write nothing.

That's simply not true. A writer can decide that the motivation of the reapers in incomprehensible, and therefor make the delibarate choice to not write much (or anything) about the reaper's motivation, because writing down an incomprehensible motivation is a paradox and impossible.

At the art university in The Netherlands where I study I've been thought "de kunst van het weglaten". It literally means "the art of omission". It means that sometimes deliberately leaving things out can create a better experience. Sometimes it's better to leave things to the imagination of the audience, such as the reaper's motivation.

That's not the case. There's a difference between omitting information and creating something that's literally impossible to imagine for anyone. Something that's more than a paradox, something that's incomprehensible.

AKA No motivation. Not motivation that just wasn't included.

[dreamgazer]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I know, I know, I'm the king of parodies, satire and hyperboles, and I would be the first to admit that. At least I don't pretend to be actually trying to engage in an intellectual debate here (lol @ the thought of an intellectual debate on BSN).

You're aware that the BSN contains more than unintelligent neanderthals who only appreciate Mass Effect and Dragon Age, right?

Modifié par dreamgazer, 14 mai 2013 - 02:31 .

[Sejborg]

If you care to look for it, then it wouldn't surprise me if you could find me saying the same things on this forum or another back when ME1 or ME2 was new.

[David7204]

I believe you.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

Whatever you want to call it. It teaches you to see flaws in arguments and strengthen your own. It teaches you to root out the reasoning behind emotions.

Discussions aren't a war, David, unless you want them to be.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 14 mai 2013 - 02:39 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

David7204 wrote...

Berating the alternative position is a completely legitimate technique, so long as it's based on valid reasoning and evidence. What exactly do you think parody and satire are?

Typically funny and grounded in actual valid reasoning, instead of subjective opinion which you claim to be superior simply because you subscribe to it. Your essential retort to the current subject matter comes down to this.

David7204 wrote...
It's sure as hell not all the motivation I needed.

If it doesn't work for you and explain the reasoning that's a debate, when you start belittling the opposing position's intelligence you've crossed into childish pettiness not discussion.

[Tonymac]

Basically, I have Zero percent trust of Hudson, Gamble, and Everman. I am not even sure they played their own game. They seem clueless of the way the whole mass effect universe / galaxy work. The story is terrible, and the endings are horrid.

The extended cut was a good try given to a really ill conceived ending(s). Given the original endings, it is obvious that the company does not care about their fans, or even telling a plausible story. As a fan, I felt like Bioware gave up and just went for the max hype, biggest crowd - and to hell with the fans. They had the bright idea to simply cheap out, not try hard or think - and to just go for the least imaginative ending. "And so let them build the Reapers a battery - 100 cubits in all dimensions - and that shall appease Me - then I shall kill them". Wow guys - really great stuff. I recommend that all 3 of them get a job that has nothing at all to do with video games or writing or storytelling.

In my opinion, the ONLY saving grace to ME3 was the multiplayer. The SP campaign was a disaster with utterly despicable writing and plot. I felt burned by Bioware. I will NEVER pre-order anything from them ever again - and will likely never buy anything from them ever again. ME3 was insulting - and I want to be clear on that. What could have been an amazing game was ruined by pencil pushing no-bodys with no skill.

Even having read the article mentioned in this thread, I have no confidence that they learned anything at all. I hope they do though - and I hope that Bioware can earn the trust of their fans. Honestly though, they have a long way to go.

[remydat]

In real life i accept some things may be incomprehensible. In fiction where the writer is the god of his universe I prefer he use that power as god and explain why trillions of people die every 50k years. It is a copout to me to say well you wont understand. I called bullsh*t when my parents tried to pull that sh*t when I was a kid and I call bullsh*t as an adult when I read stories like this. To me it just comes across as I am not too bright and cant come up with a plausible reason so let me just pretend my audience is dumb like me and say oh you wont understand.  I tell you what why dont you tell me what you think I dont understand and I can tell you after hearing it whether I do or not.  Of course we know the real problem is not the audience not understanding but the author not understanding because if they did they would do what they are employed to do and articulate it to us.

It is perfectly fine if other people dont care but trying to act like it is somehow wrong for some people to want a motive is bogus.  

Modifié par remydat, 14 mai 2013 - 03:37 .

[Kel Riever]

remydat wrote...

In real life i accept some things may be incomprehensible. In fiction where the writer is the god of his universe I prefer he use that power as god and explain why trillions of people die every 50k years. It is a copout to me to say well you wont understand. I called bullsh*t when my parents tried to pull that sh*t when I was a kid and I call bullsh*t as an adult when I read stories like this. To me it just comes across as I am not too bright and cant come up with a plausible reason so let me just pretend my audience is dumb like me and say oh you wont understand.

I must have been lucky.  My parents never said any kind of thing like that to me.  Anyway, yeah, I would call it a sign of BioWAre doing a hack job, moreso than even pretending the audience is dumb.  You know what is, "Beyond my comprehensions?"  How there are so many good writers out there with talent and they didn't get the job of writing an ending that makes any kind of sense for Mass Effect 3.

[nos_astra]

remydat wrote...
In real life i accept some things may be incomprehensible. In fiction where the writer is the god of his universe I prefer he use that power as god and explain why trillions of people die every 50k years.

I'd certainly recommend thinking about this before you publish the first installment. The moment I hear my enemy tell me I'm essentially a speck of dust on an ant and incapable of understanding we have already ventured into the lands of not-so-clever writing.

Given the nature and age of our enemies that claim wasn't too outlandish. To then handwave it as "lol arrogant" is as much a cop-out as that claim may have been to begin with. Have at least a vague idea of where you're going before you accidentally establish something you don't want to follow through with.

Modifié par klarabella, 14 mai 2013 - 03:45 .

[CaptainCommander]

This Reaper debate has its own thread!

http://social.biowar...ndex/16241227/6

[The Heretic of Time]

Robosexual wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

No motivation = No motivation.

"You wont be able to comprehend our motivation" doesn't mean they secretly have a motivation that we wont comprehend, it means they have no motivation. It means the writer sat down and decided to write nothing.

That's simply not true. A writer can decide that the motivation of the reapers in incomprehensible, and therefor make the delibarate choice to not write much (or anything) about the reaper's motivation, because writing down an incomprehensible motivation is a paradox and impossible.

At the art university in The Netherlands where I study I've been thought "de kunst van het weglaten". It literally means "the art of omission". It means that sometimes deliberately leaving things out can create a better experience. Sometimes it's better to leave things to the imagination of the audience, such as the reaper's motivation.

That's not the case. There's a difference between omitting information and creating something that's literally impossible to imagine for anyone. Something that's more than a paradox, something that's incomprehensible.

AKA No motivation. Not motivation that just wasn't included.

What's the difference between "no motivation" and "motivation that wasn't included" in this case though? What's the difference from the perspective of the player? There is no difference. Both cases leave the motivation of the reapers up for the audience to decide and speculate on.

Technically there is no such thing as "no motivation". Everyone always has a motivation. All intelligent beings have a motivation, always, with no exception. I just think it would have been better if the creators of Mass Effect left the motivation of the reapers ambiguous and up to the players to speculate on.

[The Heretic of Time]

remydat wrote...

 It is a copout to me to say well you wont understand. I called bullsh*t when my parents tried to pull that sh*t when I was a kid and I call bullsh*t as an adult when I read stories like this. To me it just comes across as I am not too bright and cant come up with a plausible reason so let me just pretend my audience is dumb like me and say oh you wont understand.

That's a pretty damn arrogant and also a stupid way of thinking.

There most certainly are things you won't understand and simply don't know. That's a fact. Smart people realize that the more you know, the more you know you don't know. Smart people realize that the more you understand, the more you realize that there are lots of things that go way beyond our comprehension. That doesn't mean that those things will always be beyond our comprehension, but at the moment they are.


If the author decides to ommit information and leave things ambiguous, it doesn't mean that the author isn't too brigt and pretends the audience in dumb. It actually means the opposite. It means the author expects his audience to be smart and creative enough to fill in the blanks themselves, something you clearly aren't capable of.

[remydat]

Klarabella,

Thatbis a fair point but I would say this. Sovereign and Harby talking sh*t to intimidate us does not condemn a writer to stick to what they said. The Reapers use psychological warfare and there is no real reason why Sovereign's statement cannot be viewed as such.

Of course I doubt that was the writer's intent but that is more of a metagame commentary. If we ignore the fact the writer most likely did have this thought in mind I can easily reconcile Sovereign's comments to the Catalyst. The Reapers were built to demoralize their enemy and talking to them like they are nothing more than a speck of dust is consistent with that.