Robosexual wrote...
It wasn't used as an excuse. You seem to be muddling up what he said with people who took it out of context and turned it into a meme.
Modifié par SpamBot2000, 08 mai 2013 - 08:09 .
angol fear wrote...
4stringwizard wrote...
angol fear wrote...
So we'll have only happy endings, no more logical endings? The writing in video game is not really high and we'll come back to that kind of writing. But I understand they need to sell games.
If you think the ending of ME3 was logical, you're insane. If you think the writing quality was even close to "high", you're even more insane.
So I'm insane? I'm actually literature teacher, cinema critic and writer. I think I know a little what I'm talking about. So yes, the standard of writing in video game is low and yes, Mass Effect 3 (original ending) is the highest level of writing ever seen in the video game history but to understand that you need to understand literature from its origins till the experimental books in the 20th century, you need to understand what is the strucutralism to make a real analysis of Mass Effect you need to understand the theories of reception... I stop here : there's so much to explain to you and I don't have time to do this. You can dislike Mass Effect 3 but I wouldn't be proud to show my ignorance like you did and, most important, the way you did.
:lol:Modifié par 4stringwizard, 08 mai 2013 - 08:24 .
a conflict with huge numbers of off-screen casualties. without seeming to cheapen it, because this is still fiction where we're going to feel more invested in the small group of characters we actually see than in the massive numbers we don't see. The basic facts of *any* kind of victory at the end of ME3 are plenty "bittersweet" on their own - billions have been killed, and many survivors may never recover the kind of lives they had before the Reapers showed up...but since we don't see any of that, its impact is limited. They had to make Shepard and the crew suffer something pretty intense to have the impact they wanted on the audience. In the end they picked the wrong something, IMO - i.e. making Shepard choose between the Catalyst's out-of-left-field options or refusing and potentially dooming the entire galaxy - but I sort of get why they may have felt that they had to *something* pretty extreme at the end.
Robosexual wrote...
Kel Riever wrote...
I wouldn't go so far as to call ANYTHING art. Defining art is so the wrong direction to go about the 'Artistic Integrity comment, anyway, which is where it seemed that this whole thing started.
Now, I wouldn't call a video game like Mass Effect art, because I just think that is damn silly, even though yes, it does have artistic elements to it. The product is a video game, and that is what you call it. Now, writing is art, and since the excuse given to the story of Mass Effect had the term 'Artistic Integrity' attached to it, I wouldn't say that aspect was out of bounds.
What WAS out of bounds, however, was using the term 'Artistic Integrity' as an excuse. Simply put, if you really are an artist, your work speaks for itself. Defending your work with a sorry attempt to say it couldn't be changed due to 'Reason: Artistic Integrity' screams hack. And reveals a self knowledge that the job wasn't done, with a heavy hand wave as to the reasons why, so the hard looking doesn't have to be done. The proper response would have been simply to let the work stand on its own merit, and never make such stupid comments in the first place.
Arguing about what is art has no part in any of that.
It wasn't used as an excuse. You seem to be muddling up what he said with people who took it out of context and turned it into a meme.
Kel Riever wrote...
Robosexual wrote...
It wasn't used as an excuse. You seem to be muddling up what he said with people who took it out of context and turned it into a meme.
"The team and I have been thinking hard about how to best address the comments on ME3’s endings from players, while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game."
That is an excuse. Translation, "We are saying we are thinking hard how to best address the comments from the players, but without really changing anything that we don't want to."
I hear it as a lame excuse. Call it what you will. He says his first instinct is to defend the work, paraphrased, while responding to criticism. And yet, he doesn't.
Modifié par Robosexual, 08 mai 2013 - 10:09 .
Robosexual wrote...
Kel Riever wrote...
Robosexual wrote...
It wasn't used as an excuse. You seem to be muddling up what he said with people who took it out of context and turned it into a meme.
"The team and I have been thinking hard about how to best address the comments on ME3’s endings from players, while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the game."
That is an excuse. Translation, "We are saying we are thinking hard how to best address the comments from the players, but without really changing anything that we don't want to."
I hear it as a lame excuse. Call it what you will. He says his first instinct is to defend the work, paraphrased, while responding to criticism. And yet, he doesn't.
Sure, hear it as a lame excuse, but it doesn't actually make it so. Not liking the art and then dismissing Bioware for standing by it doesn't actually make your point any better just to mention, we're still in the exact same position.
And that was at the top. It made me not want to read any further.samgurl775 wrote...
I'm facepalming so hard at them "not knowing how attached people were to the characters".
Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...
Good to see everyone playing together so well.
Someone find Wulfie and we can really get this party started!
TheProtheans wrote...
Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...
Good to see everyone playing together so well.
Someone find Wulfie and we can really get this party started!
Wulf seems to be some new addition to the fold this year.
Is he anything like Brovik?
I have no experience of Wulf in action so based off reputation alone I would guess he is a combined Brovik and Sevial and probably something else that is nasty.
Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 08 mai 2013 - 10:56 .
"It shows how invested a player is in the story, and how much they care about the outcomes. I've learned that a bitter-sweet ending is much easier to watch in a movie, than experience in a long RPG where the player is very invested in the protagonist."
Linkenski wrote...
Reading the interview it seems that Bioware still doesn't understand what the main problem was about the ending and even the magazine recognizes it. It's contrived and out of context. The part where Everman says"It shows how invested a player is in the story, and how much they care about the outcomes. I've learned that a bitter-sweet ending is much easier to watch in a movie, than experience in a long RPG where the player is very invested in the protagonist."
He has a point about it being harder because the overall gaming experience is much longer, but he's still saying it as if the problem of the endings were that they weren't happy. It's because they don't fit into the previous 90 minutes of the narrative for christs sake!
Kel Riever wrote...
I can only disagree with what I think you are saying, because I am not sure you are really quoting what I am saying.
My point isn't even in disagreement with you. But calling a game art doesn't make my point any worse either. Regardless, standing by your game, if you consider yourself an artist, doesn't help when you make a lame excuse and not hearing it as a lame excuse doesn't mean it isn't either.
You follow, right? There is an objectivity, even in a subjective field. If video games were primarily art, they would be called such. and not by a minority of people who fancy themselves as something they want to believe they are.
Kel Riever wrote...
I can only disagree with what I think you are saying, because I am not sure you are really quoting what I am saying.
My point isn't even in disagreement with you. But calling a game art doesn't make my point any worse either. Regardless, standing by your game, if you consider yourself an artist, doesn't help when you make a lame excuse and not hearing it as a lame excuse doesn't mean it isn't either.
You follow, right? There is an objectivity, even in a subjective field. If video games were primarily art, they would be called such. and not by a minority of people who fancy themselves as something they want to believe they are.
Modifié par Robosexual, 08 mai 2013 - 11:58 .
cgtrfghj7 wrote...
As much as I like the attitude they're taking in terms of their experiences and what they've learned from Mass Effect 3 and the whole trilogy, I really think they're missing the point.
Yea, plenty of people were upset about the ending due to the lack of an obvious 'happy' ending or not getting closure. The bigger problem, imo, is the lack of coherent narrative w.r.t. the rest of the game (or the trilogy as a whole even). For me at least, as long as the ending makes sense, I don't really care all that much about the emotions involved. Mass Effect has always felt more third person than anything so seeing Shepard die or having to leave behind comrades wasn't very difficult for me.
chemiclord wrote...
Kel Riever wrote...
I can only disagree with what I think you are saying, because I am not sure you are really quoting what I am saying.
My point isn't even in disagreement with you. But calling a game art doesn't make my point any worse either. Regardless, standing by your game, if you consider yourself an artist, doesn't help when you make a lame excuse and not hearing it as a lame excuse doesn't mean it isn't either.
You follow, right? There is an objectivity, even in a subjective field. If video games were primarily art, they would be called such. and not by a minority of people who fancy themselves as something they want to believe they are.
The problem here is that Dr. Ray Muzyka didn't write anything pertaining to Mass Effect. He is not the artist here. He's not "defending" the art in and of itself; he is defending the people who DID write the story to tell it the way they want to.
If Casey Hudson had said the same thing (as he was presumably one of the composers of the ending), then YES, it WOULD be using "artistic integrity" as a shield. He WOULD have the (theoretical) power to change it to something else if he had been so inclined (in a hypothetical world where budgets and publisher interference do not exist).
Whereas for Muzyka, it plays out more like this:
Muzyka: There's a lot of people who are upset with the ending, and want you to change it.
Walters: We don't want to.
Muzyka: Alright, I respect your decision.
THAT'S the core of Muzyka's statement. It is a (admittedly) slight distinction, but a distinction nonetheless.
This is not what irks me about the endings, or about the third game. Closure is part of the problem, narrowly defined as a "comforting sense of finality." I am not attached to Master Chief, but when I got to the third game in his trilogy, I appreciated the way it wrapped up the storylines which it had introduced. I wasn't left with big question marks hanging in the sky over it. It pretty much made sense, given the things I had seen previously.Hudson wrote...
We'd never have imagined that as we ended the trilogy, all people would
want to do was spend more time with the characters, sort of bathing in
the afterglow - getting closure and just having some time to live in the
universe that they fought to save.
This is the closest to a statement of the true state of affairs than I have seen so far from the creative team. He ruins it by the end of that sentence, though.Everman wrote...
It shows how invested a player is in the story, and how much they care
about the outcomes. I've learned that a bitter-sweet ending is much
easier to watch in a movie,
I've noticed that, I don't think that it's a very bright tactic. Some people are more vocal about their beliefs than representative of the beliefs of others.Everman wrote...
As a company, we've always tried to respond to our fan requests and try to create something special for them.
Optimystic_X wrote...
dreamgazer wrote...
How else should I respond to "No it doesn't make sense. Next!" Such people clearly have made up their minds and closed them to all further discussion.
"A wise man changes his mind sometimes, a fool never."
Modifié par o Ventus, 09 mai 2013 - 02:15 .
David7204 wrote...
That's the one thing everyone on the BSN agrees on - the BSN is full of idiots.
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