1470 réponses à ce sujet

[chemiclord]

spirosz wrote...

chemiclord wrote...

Oh, goodness no.  Even IF that was their intent, it didn't work in the SLIGHTEST.

But one thing I do like doing is ask myself, "Okay, is there a more simple explanation than 'Biowur is this mean ol' enemy that doesn't care about us fans and wants to hurt us."

To be honest, I don't know, lol.  I understand what Bioware was trying to achieve with each ending, but I also understand gaming limitations, budget, budget priorities, etc.  

Maybe it's because gamers have seen similar themes being executed well and are asking themselves, why couldn't Bioware achieve that type of quality with ME3? 

Well, I've KINDA talked about this before, but I think there were several factors involved that gave us that disjointed bag of filth, but I think the two biggest ones are:

1) They had no idea how they were going to end this thing when they started.  Even if you take Karpyshyn for his word that it was ALWAYS going to be about organic/synthetic conflict and the Reapers... that is a distressingly broad concept for an ending.  The fact they were STILL throwing out different potential routes IN THE FINISHED PRODUCT OF ME2 is excrutiatingly poor planning.  

I mean... it hurts my brain to think about.  Even if you buy the explanation that they had no idea if they were going to extend the series past ME1, that is NO excuse to not have a framework in place.  Playing it by ear is a very dangerous way to tell a story... and only the most masterful and improvisational writers can pull it off.

2) The number of permutations simply became too much to handle.  Think of all the triggers and choices and decisions that could have been in play by the end of ME2.  The sheer number of scenarios that had to be accounted for had reached the MILLIONS (something that also ties with the poor planning of the trilogy as a whole).

They had to "compress" the story simply to make it fit budget and size constraints... but at the same time, didn't want to players to think there was a "canon" path.  Their answer to this was a disasterous one; the barest of foundations, then asking players to build the rest of the house.

I don't think time really had too much to do with it (the they were rushed excuse)... I think the only thing that another extension from EA would have done was give us something closer to the Extended Cut at release... better, but still a pretty tepid and disconnected pile.

Modifié par chemiclord, 09 mai 2013 - 05:56 .

[Clayless]

o Ventus wrote...

Not really.

A wise man doesn't need to change his opinion on anything. The people he speaks with could just be damned fools
who really, really have no idea what they're talking about. Case in point: most of this board.

This can't be serious.

[Cainhurst Crow]

o Ventus wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

How else should I respond to "No it doesn't make sense. Next!" Such people clearly have made up their minds and closed them to all further discussion.

"A wise man changes his mind sometimes, a fool never."

Not really.

A wise man doesn't need to change his opinion on anything. The people he speaks with could just be damned fools
who really, really have no idea what they're talking about. Case in point: most of this board.

:DOh really now? A wise man doesn't ever need to change his opinion huh? Is that so?

That's honestly making me cringe and laugh at the same time. The utter amount of arrogance needed to belive this, that someone who never changes their minds on any subject, regardless of evidence, is a wise man. And anyone who tells them otherwise are fools, no wait, I'm sorry, "Damned fools" is hilarious.

I'm curious as to who some of these wise man are under your definition. Because the only people I can think of who don't change their opinions no matter what are stupid people, and dictators who control countires like north korea.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 09 mai 2013 - 04:56 .

[Iakus]

Optimystic_X wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

 In all but one ending Shep dies? True, but that one ending is by far the most popular, right?

Most popular on BSN, sure.

On other sites - like Youtube - Synthesis and Control crush Destroy.

I wouldn't put too much stock in youtube hits.

I watch the endings plenty, especially Synthesis (since it provides the  most complete dialogue when I'm quoting somehting)

But I will never, ever let that endeing taint my own games.  Youtube lets me see the results of choices I would never make.

[SpamBot2000]

chemiclord wrote...

Ya know, with the way that they had seen players create such detailed Shepard characters with complete backstories, goals, and desires... is it completely out there that Bioware thought leaving so many things open to interpretation for such players to fashion their own "epilogue" was something that the players could appreciate?

Lolwut? as you young people like to say. BioWare made an ending that leaves the Mass Effect Universe "a boring wasteland", no matter which color you pick. Mac Walters said it himself. That's not really allowing players to fashion "their own epilogue". That's keeping them from doing it.

[Iakus]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

How else should I respond to "No it doesn't make sense. Next!" Such people clearly have made up their minds and closed them to all further discussion.

"A wise man changes his mind sometimes, a fool never."

Not really.

A wise man doesn't need to change his opinion on anything. The people he speaks with could just be damned fools
who really, really have no idea what they're talking about. Case in point: most of this board.

:DOh really now? A wise man doesn't ever change his opinion huh? Is that so?

That's honestly making me cringe and laugh at the same time.

And who presay is a wise man under your definition? Because the only people I can think of who don't change their opinions no matter what are stupid people, and dictators who control countires like north korea.

A wise man doesn't need to change his mind.  Leaving out a word to change the meaning of the sentance is not cool.

[Megaton_Hope]

A wise man is only ever in that position if he's wiser than literally everybody else, and also knows everything, rather than merely synthesizing what he knows particularly well.

[dreamgazer]

Optimystic_X wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

 In all but one ending Shep dies? True, but that one ending is by far the most popular, right?

Most popular on BSN, sure.

On other sites - like Youtube - Synthesis and Control crush Destroy.

First off: Really? The Youtube thing again?  "Morbid curiosity" and "reference point" still render that method of observation completely unreliable.

Second: Destroy; Control; Synthesis.  All published by the same source. Extended Cut.  Synthesis has less than 10% more views than Destroy (620 to 580), and Control brings up the rear with 514.  Nearly 300,000 people viewed the Refuse ending,  Are we to believe that for every 2 people who picked Synthesis, one picks Refuse? 

Of course we aren't. 

[chemiclord]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Lolwut? as you young people like to say. BioWare made an ending that leaves the Mass Effect Universe "a boring wasteland", no matter which color you pick. Mac Walters said it himself. That's not really allowing players to fashion "their own epilogue". That's keeping them from doing it.

So that he could sell more comic books based on the franchise he just burned to the ground.

Am I doin' it rite?

Modifié par chemiclord, 09 mai 2013 - 05:19 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

iakus wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

How else should I respond to "No it doesn't make sense. Next!" Such people clearly have made up their minds and closed them to all further discussion.

"A wise man changes his mind sometimes, a fool never."

Not really.

A wise man doesn't need to change his opinion on anything. The people he speaks with could just be damned fools
who really, really have no idea what they're talking about. Case in point: most of this board.

:DOh really now? A wise man doesn't ever change his opinion huh? Is that so?

That's honestly making me cringe and laugh at the same time.

And who presay is a wise man under your definition? Because the only people I can think of who don't change their opinions no matter what are stupid people, and dictators who control countires like north korea.

A wise man doesn't need to change his mind.  Leaving out a word to change the meaning of the sentance is not cool.

Why would a wise man change his opinion if there is never a need to change?

[spamtrash]

chemiclord wrote...

Ya know, with the way that they had seen players create such detailed Shepard characters with complete backstories, goals, and desires... is it completely out there that Bioware thought leaving so many things open to interpretation for such players to fashion their own "epilogue" was something that the players could appreciate?

If anyone that likes that sort of ending then more power to you.

For me though:

After 30+ hours of SP, countless hours of MP, AND 2-3 striaght weeks of updating the Datapad APP to get the ems to 5000, my "reward" is a one-second breath that is supposed to be satsifying and provide closure? Yeah.  Really "appreciated" that slap in the face.


Though to be fair the open-endedness did "fashion" multiple conclusions to the story: MEEM, MS, ME 3V, etc, and my favorite MEHEM.

Modifié par spamtrash, 09 mai 2013 - 05:25 .

[PsyrenY]

dreamgazer wrote...

First off: Really? The Youtube thing again?  "Morbid curiosity" and "reference point" still render that method of observation completely unreliable.

Yes, really. I'm referring to actual feedback (likes and dislikes) not passive consumption (views.) Of course, views are important too, because they show the audience each video has. Unlike BSN polls, we know how many people watched and didn't leave a rating one way or the other - either they simply didn't feel strongly enough to leave one, or didn't have an account and so were unable to.

BSN polls don't share this information with us. They are far less useful as a metric of anything.

dreamgazer wrote...

Second: Destroy; Control; Synthesis.  All published by the same source. Extended Cut.  Synthesis has less than 10% more views than Destroy (620 to 580), and Control brings up the rear with 514.  Nearly 300,000 people viewed the Refuse ending,  Are we to believe that for every 2 people who picked Synthesis, one picks Refuse? 

Of course we aren't.

I go by thumbs, not views. Viewing is passive and doesn't indicate opinion. As you rightfully indicate, just because someone watches Refuse doesn't mean they chose it. But likes are another matter.

The fact of the matter is, Synthesis has far more likes on YT than it ever does on BSN. Some of these could very well be people simply thanking the uploader for letting them see it. But if Synthesis was as widely reviled as much of BSN would like it to be, the ratings on every site would reflect that, not just the ratings here.

[Tron Mega]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

"We'd never have imagined that as we ended the trilogy, all people would want to do was spend more time with the characters, sort of bathing in the afterglow - getting closure and just having some time to live in the universe that they fought to save."

What an incredibly stupid thing to say. We built up this universe from scratch and made you fall in love with it's characters, but we had no idea you would want to actually spend more time here.

Seriously? BioWare, please... get a ****ing clue.

and play to your strengths.

characters, and the bioware story cliche chart. thats what biowares best at.

give me more of that.

[SpamBot2000]

chemiclord wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Lolwut? as you young people like to say. BioWare made an ending that leaves the Mass Effect Universe "a boring wasteland", no matter which color you pick. Mac Walters said it himself. That's not really allowing players to fashion "their own epilogue". That's keeping them from doing it.

So that he could sell more comic books based on the franchise he just burned to the ground.

Am I doin' it rite?

You know you're not. There's a difference in not wanting to write more games and not wanting to write comic books expanding on the story that's already there, as you no doubt realize. But you just have to try to get a playground chant of "SpamBot is crazy!" going, because you can't respond to any point that I make. It's a little sad.

For future reference, when I say "they torched the franchise", I mean the video game franchise, not the lunch box and action figure franchise. I was a fan of the games, not the side merch.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 09 mai 2013 - 05:42 .

[chemiclord]

*Stupid mixing of quote and edit buttons*

Modifié par chemiclord, 09 mai 2013 - 05:49 .

[txgoldrush]

Tron Mega wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

"We'd never have imagined that as we ended the trilogy, all people would want to do was spend more time with the characters, sort of bathing in the afterglow - getting closure and just having some time to live in the universe that they fought to save."

What an incredibly stupid thing to say. We built up this universe from scratch and made you fall in love with it's characters, but we had no idea you would want to actually spend more time here.

Seriously? BioWare, please... get a ****ing clue.

and play to your strengths.

characters, and the bioware story cliche chart. thats what biowares best at.

give me more of that.

no....

take risks...I am sick of KOTOR clones.

[dreamgazer]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I go by thumbs, not views. Viewing is passive and doesn't indicate opinion. As you rightfully indicate, just because someone watches Refuse doesn't mean they chose it. But likes are another matter.

Don't look at the ratio of likes to dislikes for Refuse then, or the other videos.  They're all about the same 90/10 split, which suggests, to me, that this is much more about passive/base appreciation than a philosophical gauge.  

Unless everybody "out there" likes everything the same.

The fact of the matter is, Synthesis has far more likes on YT than it ever does on BSN. Some of these could very well be people simply thanking the uploader for letting them see it. But if Synthesis was as widely reviled as much of BSN would like it to be, the ratings on every site would reflect that, not just the ratings here.

What other methods, what other sites, do you use besides YouTube? Pure curiosity.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 09 mai 2013 - 06:30 .

[Megaton_Hope]

Optimystic_X wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Second: Destroy; Control; Synthesis.  All published by the same source. Extended Cut.  Synthesis has less than 10% more views than Destroy (620 to 580), and Control brings up the rear with 514.  Nearly 300,000 people viewed the Refuse ending,  Are we to believe that for every 2 people who picked Synthesis, one picks Refuse? 

Of course we aren't.

I go by thumbs, not views. Viewing is passive and doesn't indicate opinion. As you rightfully indicate, just because someone watches Refuse doesn't mean they chose it. But likes are another matter.

The fact of the matter is, Synthesis has far more likes on YT than it ever does on BSN. Some of these could very well be people simply thanking the uploader for letting them see it. But if Synthesis was as widely reviled as much of BSN would like it to be, the ratings on every site would reflect that, not just the ratings here.

By this reasoning, fewer than a thousand people dislike any given ending. Which we know is not so.

I'd lean toward thanking the uploader, as you've suggested. When people post video game reviews, rather than videos of gameplay, thumbs up/down are a more reasonable metric for success.

[Yestare7]

samgurl775 wrote...

I'm facepalming so hard at them "not knowing how attached people were to the characters".

[PsyrenY]

dreamgazer wrote...

Don't look at the ratio of likes to dislikes for Refuse then, or the other videos.  They're all about the same 90/10 split, which suggests, to me, that this is much more about passive/base appreciation than a philosophical gauge.

But even a 90/10 base appreciation for Synthesis, or Control, is impossible to find on BSN. So my statement - that other sites' ideologies are different - stands.

dreamgazer wrote...  

What other methods, what other sites, do you use besides YouTube? Pure curiosity.

This is tricky - post-EC, most other sites rate "Extended Cut vs. non-Extended Cut" rather than rating individual ending choices. Of the few I found post-EC that did rate individual endings: MMO Champion ranked Destroy first, Synthesis second, Control third and Refuse fourth. Escapist did the same. That alone distinguishes them from BSN (most BSN polls have Control or Refuse, or some variation of "none!" in second place.) But the percentages themselves are telling too - with only BSN having Destroy get 50%+ consistently.

For the EC itself, Kotaku says 50/50 love/hate split. CAVG says 44% hate EC, 38% love it and 18% were fine with the original endings. Quibblo had 36% consider EC "great", 30% "okay", 16% mediocre and 18% poor. 

All of these are completely different results from BSN polls, which tend to tank Synthesis and tank the EC alike. The one site that seems to follow BSN patterns in lockstep is Hold the Line, which is unsurprising.

[dreamgazer]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

BioWare made an ending that leaves the Mass Effect Universe "a boring wasteland", no matter which color you pick. Mac Walters said it himself. That's not really allowing players to fashion "their own epilogue". That's keeping them from doing it.

Well, that's kinda bound to be the case after a war with mechanical, near-invincible Cthulhu tears the galaxy asunder.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Robosexual wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

warping of every. single. thing.

Translating PR speak is a skill

Constant paranoia and a delusional victim mentality isn't a skill. Far from it in fact.

Indeed.

[PsyrenY]

Megaton_Hope wrote...

By this reasoning, fewer than a thousand people dislike any given ending. Which we know is not so.

But fewer than a thousand people participate in most BSN polls too.

Megaton_Hope wrote...

I'd lean toward thanking the uploader, as you've suggested. 

And I'm fine with this, but if the synthesis hatred/vitriol was as widespread as people here like to think it is, that would still bleed over to the thumbs. It doesn't, therefore it isn't.

[Yestare7]

dreamgazer wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Most popular on BSN, sure.

On other sites - like Youtube - Synthesis and Control crush Destroy.

First off: Really? The Youtube thing again?  "Morbid curiosity" and "reference point" still render that method of observation completely unreliable.

Second: Destroy; Control; Synthesis.  All published by the same source. Extended Cut.  Synthesis has less than 10% more views than Destroy (620 to 580), and Control brings up the rear with 514.  Nearly 300,000 people viewed the Refuse ending,  Are we to believe that for every 2 people who picked Synthesis, one picks Refuse? 

Of course we aren't. 

Synthesizers hanging on to small straws, since we all know they are the vast majority. 

If I was one of them, I'd be proud of my independent non-masses choice,
and DEFINATELY not flaunt with some mumbo jumbo youtube reasoning<_<<_<

[PsyrenY]

How is it "mumbo-jumbo?" Is a person on youtube somehow less of a person than a poster on BSN?