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[MisterJB]

Why wouldn't the elves commercialize the eluvians? I mean, that would have to be worth a lot of money.
Apart from the very real possibility they would consider it desecration for it to be in human, dwarven or kossith hands, of course. Much like their blood ink.

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Marethari chose to remain. While part of Merrill's rationale was that she could save her clan, she never expected them to stay there after she left. She expected the clan to pack up and take as much as they could and get the hell out of there, if not move the aravels themselves.

I'm simply arguing on how it could've saved the clan. Merrill never once told the clan to stay there.

It doesn't matter what Merrill said. Let me introduce you to a legal notion: reasonable foreseeability.

It was reasonably foreseeable that Marethari would refuse to leave without Merril. She does not avoid culpability for her actions because she happen to subjectively believe that Marethari would abandon her. 

And thus word would not leak out of multiple Eluvians in Dalish control, because it'd require

1) contact with the Dalish
2) seeing the Eluvian
3) seeing the Eluvian work
4) understanding what the hell it's supposed to be. 

Not gonna be very easy.

All that it requires is one zealous Tevinter slaver. A few captured Dalish elves, somne torture and blood magic, and suddenly we have an entire of extremist mages salivating over capturing any Dalish clan in sight.

I don't think it's so limited. The halla example, the Darkspawn example, contacting another clan and saying "Hey, we found X! Great news!" or so on.

That's limited. It's just the exchange of news, and rapid communication of important developments.

morale boost, for starters. The Elves could use something from their own history to help them feel like they're a part of the world.

The Dalish are very good at having a lot of morale, and this is the only group it elves. The CEs need stories and elven heroes, but the Dalish aren't helping them at all.

Hey, it's a 4000 year old artifact with barely any written down lore/research.

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm just saying that by the standard you set, Merrill wasn't in the business of helping anyone.

The fact that she managed to build a new Eluvian from scratch using what lore she could find and can sense the power that it contains -- literally, she can feel it inside. Not a hunch, but an actual knowledge of its power -- is pretty damn impressive.

Not really. It could just be a sign she's losing it. 

It's not like Merrill has the book on the Eluvians that Ariane's clan had, complete with Morrigan's notes (that I'm sure she took down) and an Elven-English translation guide from the Circle.

I'm not saying what Merrill did wasn't absolutely a technical marvel - I'm just saying that it wasn't anywhere near the stage where it was helping anyone. She made clear choices on what to focus on. I don't think she needs to defend her choices. 

DG said she built hers from scratch using a shard form the original as a baseplate to form a foundation on where to go off from, and did her research accordingly based on what she could find.

Sorry, I should have clarified.

I wasn't doubting that Merrill (out of anyone) had the technical skill to build the mirror. Rather, I was suggesting that to actually get it to work might require rare or otherwise hard to get materials that would make a second Eluvian difficult to make. We don't know what it takes to get it working, afte rall.

And remember, the Scrying ritual was able to locate other Eluvians. So if another broken one was found, the shards could be taken and each shard used to build a new Eluvian.

Only if there wasn't some special control centre that has to be separately made. That's what I was getting at. 

[In Exile]

MisterJB wrote...

Why wouldn't the elves commercialize the eluvians? I mean, that would have to be worth a lot of money.
Apart from the very real possibility they would consider it desecration for it to be in human, dwarven or kossith hands, of course. Much like their blood ink.

Because they'd be enslaved faster than you can say "Giddy-Magister-says-what?"

[MisterJB]

In Exile wrote...
Because they'd be enslaved faster than you can say "Giddy-Magister-says-what?"

Just threaten to smash all in their possession to sand thus, destroying the secret of their fabrication like the dwarves of Mahakam (The Witcher). If any human king gets some idea about taking their mines for himself, they will just flood them.
And if, after having sold a few, some human mages discover how to replicate them, then there is no point in eslaving the dalish.

[The Hierophant]

I never understood Merrill's obsession with the Eluvians as the elves of Arlathan knew how to manufacture them yet they were still dominated, and enslaved.

[In Exile]

MisterJB wrote...
Just threaten to smash all in their possession to sand thus, destroying the secret of their fabrication like the dwarves of Mahakam (The Witcher). If any human king gets some idea about taking their mines for himself, they will just flood them.

Blood magic. Problem solved. (Mind control, I mean). 

Meet with one to self, mind rape him or her, and then go from there.

And if, after having sold a few, some human mages discover how to replicate them, then there is no point in eslaving the dalish.

Well, I think the Tevinters would probably want to still do it on principle, but to be fair I can't see a counter to this point. 

[In Exile]

The Hierophant wrote...

I never understood Merrill's obsession with the Eluvians as the elves of Arlathan knew how to manufacture them yet they were still dominated, and enslaved.

Merrill doesn't see them as having practical value per se, despite what people on this thread have said. Her main defence of it in DA2 is that it's a chance for the elves to recover their history.

The Eluvian is valuable because it lets the elves reclaim that part of Arlathan for themselves. 

It's not really about Merrill's fascination, I think. Just the writers driving the message home that the Dalish are seemingly incapable of living in the present and creating new history. They dwell on the past and get nowhere for it.

Putting aside Merrill's boderline obsession, I think it's not so clear cut. The Dalish arent' wrong to want to recover their culture. There's nothing that says they can't move forward while knowing and respecting their past. 

Having it stolen from them twice makes it understandable that they'd want to reclaim it. The problem comes when they effectively surrender their other goals to just pursue the past.

Modifié par In Exile, 12 mai 2013 - 11:22 .

[The Hierophant]

In Exile wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I never understood Merrill's obsession with the Eluvians as the elves of Arlathan knew how to manufacture them yet they were still dominated, and enslaved.

Merrill doesn't see them as having practical value per se, despite what people on this thread have said. Her main defence of it in DA2 is that it's a chance for the elves to recover their history.

The Eluvian is valuable because it lets the elves reclaim that part of Arlathan for themselves. 

StreetMagic wrote...

It's not really about Merrill's fascination, I think. Just the writers driving the message home that the Dalish are seemingly incapable of living in the present and creating new history. They dwell on the past and get nowhere for it.

Putting aside Merrill's boderline obsession, I think it's not so clear cut. The Dalish arent' wrong to want to recover their culture. There's nothing that says they can't move forward while knowing and respecting their past. 

Having it stolen from them twice makes it understandable that they'd want to reclaim it. The problem comes when they effectively surrender their other goals to just pursue the past.

Good points especially the bolded.

[Todd23]

MisterJB wrote...

Why wouldn't the elves commercialize the eluvians? I mean, that would have to be worth a lot of money.
Apart from the very real possibility they would consider it desecration for it to be in human, dwarven or kossith hands, of course. Much like their blood ink.

I laughed hella' during the part of DA2 where the craftsman said: "we would no sooner give you this ink then we would one of our own children."  It hella' reminded me of the time Spongebob asked Patrick to say hello to him again.  "No!  My hellos are special!"

[The Elder King]

StreetMagic wrote...


They're not wrong about it. I just think this is kind of the role they play in this world: A race who doesn't move forward. Seemingly doesn't move forward for millenia, at that. Just like the dwarves are a race on the outskirts or isolated. They are present in doses as reminders that this is a fantasy world, but overall, this is a fantasy world for humans to shine and make impact. The plight of elves are just clever ways of keeping them out of the picture, and focusing on a narrative with human centric themes.

...... :huh:you seriously got that vibe from DAO?

[TEWR]

Why wouldn't the elves commercialize the eluvians? I mean, that would have to be worth a lot of money.
Apart from the very real possibility they would consider it desecration for it to be in human, dwarven or kossith hands, of course. Much like their blood ink.

That'll happen the day Dalish Elves have free reign to peruse the Circle's libraries without risk of their Mages being taken away and a Warden-Hero needing to be there where he's guaranteeing nothing will happen.

It doesn't matter what Merrill said. Let me introduce you to a legal notion: reasonable foreseeability.

It was reasonably foreseeable that Marethari would refuse to leave without Merril. She does not avoid culpability for her actions because she happen to subjectively believe that Marethari would abandon her.

It was also reasonably foreseeable that Marethari would place the clan's well-being over a desire for Merrill to return, considering that's how she's acted in the past (DAO, for instance).

All that it requires is one zealous Tevinter slaver. A few captured Dalish elves, somne torture and blood magic, and suddenly we have an entire of extremist mages salivating over capturing any Dalish clan in sight.

Dalish avoid traveling to the Tevinter area, and slavers have to operate either on the down-low in a city or with the approval of someone.

That's limited. It's just the exchange of news, and rapid communication of important developments.

Agree to disagree, I guess. I think it's a major improvement,you think it's minor.

Not really. It could just be a sign she's losing it.

Given what we know of Eluvians, I doubt it.

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm just saying that by the standard you set, Merrill wasn't in the business of helping anyone.

I think she was helping people.

Rather, I was suggesting that to actually get it to work might require rare or otherwise hard to get materials that would make a second Eluvian difficult to make. We don't know what it takes to get it working, afte rall.

Fair enough. That does make sense. While I doubt it'd require a control center separately made as you cited as a possible example, certainly we don't know what it takes to get it to work.

Though I will say this: Tevinter used blood magic and dragonbones hoping to unlock the Eluvian's powers, and only got the communication aspect unlocked. First, that indicates that the Elves of Arlathan managed to keep the Eluvian powers a secret. Second, it implies blood magic -- or at the very least, blood -- might play a part.

But Tevinter uses blood magic to make their stews, so meh.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 mai 2013 - 11:38 .

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Why wouldn't the elves commercialize the eluvians? I mean, that would have to be worth a lot of money.
Apart from the very real possibility they would consider it desecration for it to be in human, dwarven or kossith hands, of course. Much like their blood ink.

Perhaps the elves simply are not interested in money.  It is possible, you know.  I certainly haven't seen much indication that money does or would more to them than their intense (and justified) distrust of humans.  The Dalish aren't, after all, trying to integrate into human society, they are trying to stay separate from it.

[MisterJB]

Todd23 wrote...
I laughed hella' during the part of DA2 where the craftsman said: "we would no sooner give you this ink then we would one of our own children."  It hella' reminded me of the time Spongebob asked Patrick to say hello to him again.  "No!  My hellos are special!"

And then I totally stole a jar of it. True story.

[The Elder King]

StreetMagic wrote...


Not necessarily DAO, because that was conceived as an introduction to the world in general. But the actual in game "power players" in the world revolve around human things. Dalish and Dwarves are mostly on the sidelines. They're kind of "decoration" and probably remain more or less static. I don't think there's going to be some major resurgence of Arlathan or anything. Not so sure about the Qun.. definitely a bigger part than those two, but I think the Tevinter/Orlais thing is what it's all really about.

There is no need to a resurgence of Arlathan. That doesn't mean that an elven state couldn't be founded. Considering the geopolitical situation of Thedas, the elves could try to gain advantages.
As for the Tevinter/Orlais thing, I disagree simply because the Imperium will devastate Orlais in a war fought only by those two states. The Imperium and the Qun are stronger than any single Andrastian nation. Not to mention that Nevarra's power isn't really clear. They're certainly strong. I doubt that there is that much difference between Nevarra and Orlais.
And about the qunari, they were strong enough to face both the Imperium and the Andrastian nations. I'm sure that if the IP will continue to be successful, we're going to face them to repell a new Qunari Invasion.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Perhaps the elves simply are not interested in money.  It is possible, you know.  I certainly haven't seen much indication that money does or would more to them than their intense (and justified) distrust of humans.  The Dalish aren't, after all, trying to integrate into human society, they are trying to stay separate from it.

It's a lot easier to own land and get people to stay off your proprierty when you have millions of sovereigns.

[MisterJB]

In Exile wrote...
Blood magic. Problem solved. (Mind control, I mean). 

Meet with one to self, mind rape him or her, and then go from there.

Blood magic is a threat in general. Probrably every sort of human endeavor can be ruined by a little mind control. But that doesn't mean people should stop doing...things because the threat of it exists. Only that they must prepare for that eventuality.

[The Elder King]

StreetMagic wrote...



Your assertions kind of contradict each other. If you think the Elves set up their own state (however small), that will more than likely become a beacon for many outside elves - including some slaves in Tevinter. Tevinter's economy, and arguably, it's magic, depends a lot on elven labor and flesh. If all of these elves realize there's a city run by their own kind, that leaves Tevinter in a pretty weak position. Then you have the Qunari and Orlais possibly warring with them from different sides. No way Tevinter survives that.

I don't think the writers want to make the fall of Tevinter come down so easily. Where's the drama in that? Elves getting a city state has a domino effect, but it's boring. Most of us demand all out war. This is a video game franchise. Not a "Free the Elves" franchise. We want a serious war. ... Right? Right?

I'm being facetious, but hope you get my point.

I understand your point, but I'm not contradicting myself. Tevinter as it is now is stronger than Orlais. Of course, if the basis of its economy (slavery) would fall, with slaves escaping, they'd suffering major losses (though you're assuming that Tevinter would easily let their slaves escape).
I never said that if an elven state was formed, and the elven slaves in the Imperium will escape, that the Imperium will be stronger than Orlais. My opinion about an hypothetical Orlais-Tevinter war was based on the situation prior DA2/Asunder.
As for Tevinter falling, so that we'll not going to face them, I'd point out that so far no DA game was about a war between two states, and DAI will likely not be about it.
As for the all-out war, I doubt that we'll get to face in different games both the Imperium and the Qun, It'd be boring (as it'd be to have another Blight that soon), not to mention that it's not going to realistically happen. Neither the Imperium or the Qun could afford to invade the rest of Thedas before stabilizing the North, and that means that they have to defeat each other.
So there'll be either an Imperium invasion, or a Qunari invasion, in my opinion.

Modifié par hhh89, 13 mai 2013 - 12:06 .

[LobselVith8]

The Hierophant wrote...

I never understood Merrill's obsession with the Eluvians as the elves of Arlathan knew how to manufacture them yet they were still dominated, and enslaved.

Merrill believes the Eluvians can benefit her people, which is why she tries to recreate an operational Eluvian during the storyline. She informs Hawke that she believes she can help save her people with this advanced technology. Merrill has gathered and studied the lore on the Eluvian, and she further extrapolated information from the shard she took (and subsequently cleansed) from the Elven Ruins in the Brecillian Forest.

With the Andrastian kingdoms looking down on "heathens", I don't think Merrill is aiming to create a new kingdom, since she even states that half of Thedas would likely attack an elven kingdom if the protagonist has supported her and romanced her.

[TK514]

If the Elves are truly serious about recreating an Elven homeland free of Humans, they should probably stop pining over a patch of land which is currently populated by humans, surrounded by human kingdoms, and the most direct route between two of them, and start building ships.

Few things spur nations to war like trade, and a human free Dales would represent a clear threat to trade between Ferelden and Orlais. Tack on how, even when united, the Elves have a poor historical record when it comes to having homelands destroyed or taken away, and currently even individual Dalish clans can't get along, and you're not looking at long term viability.

However, the Qunari came from somewhere, proving the existence of at least one other landmass, and offering hope that there are still places across the sea free of humanity, where the Elves might have a chance to heal the clear divisions between individual Dalish clans and between the Dalish and City Elves and maybe create something like an actual Elven culture and homeland.

Of course, the elves, the Dalish in particular, have spent so long using others as scapegoats for their problems, I'm not entirely certain they'd be able to give it up in time to found a lasting society. I suspect the rift between Dalish and City elf is so great that conflict between the two would be inevitable. After all, the Dalish would need someone to blame when their mythical immortality failed to reappear in the absence of humans. The former City Elves, or more likely their descendants, would make a perfect target for blame. Being tainted by long association with humans and all, don't you know.

Modifié par TK514, 13 mai 2013 - 12:20 .