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[LobselVith8]

StreetMagic wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

I never understood Merrill's obsession with the Eluvians as the elves of Arlathan knew how to manufacture them yet they were still dominated, and enslaved.

It's not really about Merrill's fascination, I think. Just the writers driving the message home that the Dalish are seemingly incapable of living in the present and creating new history. They dwell on the past and get nowhere for it.

The Dalish are nomadic and have no kingdom because they refuse to convert to the Andrastian religion like the ancestors of the Alienage elves did, and they are hunted down by the templars. I've never gotten the message that the Dalish are wrong for wanting to have their own culture and their own religion. In fact, the Dalish Warden can fully support the premise of the People and even ask the new ruler of Ferelden to give the Dalish their own land, which leads to the Hinterlands being given to the Dalish.

[LobselVith8]

StreetMagic wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Dalish are nomadic and have no kingdom because they refuse to convert to the Andrastian religion like the ancestors of the Alienage elves did, and they are hunted down by the templars. I've never gotten the message that the Dalish are wrong for wanting to have their own culture and their own religion. In fact, the Dalish Warden can fully support the premise of the People and even ask the new ruler of Ferelden to give the Dalish their own land, which leads to the Hinterlands being given to the Dalish.

Do they address that place in DA2?

Some of it is explained in Origins. The fall of the Dales codex and the Dalish Origin story addresses that the Dalish refused to submit to human rule, and became nomadic. In Dragon Age II, Merrill explains to Hawke that the templars hunt down the clans, so they don't stay in one place for long. We also have Chantry missionaries threathening the Dalish in Sundermount to convert. It's made apparent since Origins that religious Andrastians view non-Andrastians as heathens.

StreetMagic wrote...

A lot of that game's epilogue details was concieved in a shortsighted way. They didn't know how successful it'd be or what they'd really follow up on. Freeing the Circle Tower, plight of Elves, Old God Baby, etc.. As it is, none of this is written in stone. DAO may as well been a nice "dream".

I'm well aware of the recton of the Magi Boon.

[TEWR]

King Alistair mentions it, and implies the humans were at fault for why it didn't work out. He also vows to make it up to the Dalish.

[LobselVith8]

StreetMagic wrote...

Actually, wasn't the Hinterlands one of those auto story plots, like Amaranthine given to the Wardens? Perhaps it is written in stone..

That was actually a bug. The Dalish Boon slide is only supposed to show if the Dalish Warden asked for her people to be given land, since that's the only time the flags are properly triggered.

StreetMagic wrote...

Oh, I understand all of that. I was curious if the Hinterlands boon ever has a mention in DA2.

The Dalish Boon is given a vague and cryptic mention by Merrill in "King Alistair". You can check it out on that site with videos. It's not handled properly, in my opinion. It's as sloppily handled as Anders and Justice merging even if Anders was never recruited, and Justice was killed in the Dragonbone Wastes.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Perhaps the elves simply are not interested in money.  It is possible, you know.  I certainly haven't seen much indication that money does or would more to them than their intense (and justified) distrust of humans.  The Dalish aren't, after all, trying to integrate into human society, they are trying to stay separate from it.

It's a lot easier to own land and get people to stay off your proprierty when you have millions of sovereigns.

Sure it is, but that doesn't mean the Dalish would or should be willing to do things that way. Insisting that the best way for them to survive and go foward is by setting their culture within the framework of their enemies is, well...unsettling, to put it mildly.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Sure it is, but that doesn't mean the Dalish would or should be willing to do things that way. Insisting that the best way for them to survive and go foward is by setting their culture within the framework of their enemies is, well...unsettling, to put it mildly.

The humans are the most powerful race in Thedas and whenever a conflict of large proportions erupted between them and the elves, the humans won 100% of the times. Clearly, they are doing something and the Dalish would probrably gain something from looking into it. They can just use money when dealing with humans and continue trading items among themselves.
Besides, that cultural aspect of the Dalish is doomned, anyway. If they ever regain an homeland capable of sustaining increasing numbers of elves, the whole "everything belongs to the clan" won't last for long. They are going to need to introduce some form of currency.
Also, the Dalish culture is not without its similarities to humanity's. They are an authoritarian magocracy which just so happens to be the same system used in Tevinter.

[EmperorSahlertz]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Sure it is, but that doesn't mean the Dalish would or should be willing to do things that way. Insisting that the best way for them to survive and go foward is by setting their culture within the framework of their enemies is, well...unsettling, to put it mildly.

The humans are the most powerful race in Thedas and whenever a conflict of large proportions erupted between them and the elves, the humans won 100% of the times. Clearly, they are doing something and the Dalish would probrably gain something from looking into it. They can just use money when dealing with humans and continue trading items among themselves.
Besides, that cultural aspect of the Dalish is doomned, anyway. If they ever regain an homeland capable of sustaining increasing numbers of elves, the whole "everything belongs to the clan" won't last for long. They are going to need to introduce some form of currency.
Also, the Dalish culture is not without its similarities to humanity's. They are an authoritarian magocracy which just so happens to be the same system used in Tevinter.

Actually their extended period of communal and tribal society, would make a transistion into a communistic society far easier for them to adapt to, than into a full blown capitalistic one.

[LobselVith8]

MisterJB wrote...

Besides, that cultural aspect of the Dalish is doomned, anyway. If they ever regain an homeland capable of sustaining increasing numbers of elves, the whole "everything belongs to the clan" won't last for long. They are going to need to introduce some form of currency. 

You seem fairly certain of that despite the fact that the Dalish had an entire kingdom.

[The Hierophant]

LobselVith8 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Besides, that cultural aspect of the Dalish is doomned, anyway. If they ever regain an homeland capable of sustaining increasing numbers of elves, the whole "everything belongs to the clan" won't last for long. They are going to need to introduce some form of currency. 

You seem fairly certain of that despite the fact that the Dalish had an entire kingdom.

It's the potential issues of a clan based nomadic society successfully transitioning into a sedentary society. You have to take into account  the contrasting lifetyles along with their positives and negatives. Plus there's the issue of getting all the clans, and keepers to agree on a central form of government as they have been a fragmented society for nearly 7 centuries.

[Senya]

^^

There is also the City Elf issue. How many of them will bring the culture of the countries they grew up in with them? And how many Dalish will treat them like second-class citizens. Their lore suggests one day, they will, "instruct" the City Elves.

[LobselVith8]

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^

There is also the City Elf issue. How many of them will bring the culture of the countries they grew up in with them? And how many Dalish will treat them like second-class citizens. Their lore suggests one day, they will, "instruct" the City Elves.

You could also ask how many Andrastian elves will look down on Dalish elves as "heathens", and the conflict with some of the Alienage elves looking down on the People. When your religion preaches that you need to convert all people in the four corners of the world to bring back the Maker, it's going to cause problems with those people who don't want to convert to the human religion.

[Senya]

The same can also be said about the People's belief that those who have embraced human customs are traitors. Many will not want to give up their identity because the Dalish Elves say so and the Dalish are known to look down on "flat ears".

[LobselVith8]

almostinsane99 wrote...

The same can also be said about the People's belief that those who have embraced human customs are traitors. Many will not want to give up their identity because the Dalish Elves say so and the Dalish are known to look down on "flat ears".

Some Dalish look down on the elves who prefer to live in servitude to humanity as servants who live in impoverished ghettos, instead of living free and being their own masters. Surrendering to the Chantry meant giving up their religion and their heritage. We also see how welcoming the Sabrae clan was of Pol when he was welcomed into the clan, despite being from the Denerim Alienage.

[Senya]

Pol abandoning everything submitting to them would give him a good welcome, yes.

Keeping human customs and demanding respect for them will definitely be a different pill to swallow.

[LobselVith8]

almostinsane99 wrote...

Pol abandoning everything submitting to them would give him a good welcome, yes.

That's actually what the Chantry demanded from the elves when they sacked the Dales - abandon their heritage, their culture, and their religion to submit to human rule, living impoverished lives in dilapidated corners of society. Pol, on the other hand, wanted a different life, and was welcomed by people who treated him well.

almostinsane99 wrote...

Keeping human customs and demanding respect for them will definitely be a different pill to swallow.

That's actually what we see in Andrastian society and their view of people who follow different religions. It's even their discriminatory view of people who aren't human, like the elves. As Duncan points out, some humans see elves as less than people.

[Sir JK]

I just discovered something interesting about Dalish history that raises some questions about it's validity...

I will refer you all to the Tale of Iloren.The wiki entry

A nice tale about Dalish ingenuity. There's just a flaw in it...

Zazikel rose during the second Blight. So if this is true, then we have a clan of Dalish wandering the Anderfels 15 - 90 years beforethe Dales-Orlesian war began. So we have dalish as we know them today, when the Dales still stood as an independent kingdom.

This tale has been passed down from keeper to keeper and eventually been penned by Zathrian. Which means that rather than treating it as a 800 years or story, it's more akin to 500 years old. Which means it's probably slightly truer to the original story.

The reason I find it interesting is because it's a rather glaring flaw in it's authenticity. Either the dalish were already wandeirng human lands before the fall of the Dales, which would mean that the dalish blaming humanity for forcing them into their lifetsyle isn't entirely true (since they clearly already were).
Or... the story is a complete fabrication and uses a few recogniceable names to make it more interesting. Given their current nomadic lifestyle, Zazikel would in this case be the one representing the largest threat. But it calls into question what else is made up?
Or... the dalish are merely very liberal with the definition of "following" and it's actually way after the second blight but before the third. But it does imply that you can't trust any dalish story that indicates a passage of time.

Or the story is just misremembered and noone bothered to fact check before writing it down... but it still calls dalish history's accurancy into question.

Or it means nothing...

It's an interesting to think about though

[Senya]

^^
That does bring some interesting questions. How much of Dalish history changed into legend and myth?

LobselVith8 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

Pol abandoning everything submitting to them would give him a good welcome, yes.

That's actually what the Chantry demanded from the elves when they sacked the Dales - abandon their heritage, their culture, and their religion to submit to human rule, living impoverished lives in dilapidated corners of society. Pol, on the other hand, wanted a different life, and was welcomed by people who treated him well.

almostinsane99 wrote...

Keeping human customs and demanding respect for them will definitely be a different pill to swallow.

That's actually what we see in Andrastian society and their view of people who follow different religions. It's even their discriminatory view of people who aren't human, like the elves. As Duncan points out, some humans see elves as less than people.

I am not talking about the humans here. I'm talking about the Dalish and the City Elves, who may or may not have different ideas than the Dalish as well as different culture which, as hard as it is for you to believe, they might be sort of attached to.

The Dalish are nice people, when you agree with every point they make. But it's ludricrous to believe there won't be some conflict between the two groups of elves when one of them sees themselves as better. And I'm not talking about the City Elves.

The Dalish look down on the City Elves for their "choice" to live among humans and I think it's not a stretch to guess this will carry on at least subconsciously. But, perhaps, if the Dalish are inccoruptible pure-hearted individuals, they would at least listen to the city elves.

Or they could decide the City Elves know nothing and are corrupted by living with humans.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 16 mai 2013 - 06:05 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

Sir JK if you forget not all of elves live in Dales after first blight, and many(not all) of them were join to Dales from other parts of Thedas

and a am sure that even not all of ancient elves were enslaved by Ancient Tevinter, because we know that some of them escape and live in Dwarf taigs and Arlathan was just a main city of all of their Thedas empire

..and thats explain how modern elves keep their knoledges after Tevinter slavery(and Tevinter forced them to forget many of what they have before)

and why no one care about Zatrian life spawn of more that 400 years(400 years after ritual when he was adult and have 2 childrens)

and Mahariel Warden father-was a Keeper of Sabre clan BEFORE Merethari(so she was First of father of our Dalish Warden) so father of our Dalish Warden was older than his First Merethari who replace him after his death from group of bandits

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 16 mai 2013 - 07:10 .

[Dorrieb]

almostinsane99 wrote...
The Dalish are nice people, when you agree with every point they make.

They are arrogant, surly, condescending, deluded, self-important, narrow-minded, backwards pikey jerks, even if they do have a point. City Elves would do better to stick it out in 'human' society and contribute to its diversity than bow their heads to those retrograde losers.

I shouldn't worry about it though. The creators apparently view the elves as part of the background of the DA setting. They're not really going anywhere with it.

[LobselVith8]

almostinsane99 wrote...

^^
That does bring some interesting questions. How much of Dalish history changed into legend and myth?

I don't think anyone disputes that the Dalish had their own kingdom once. The codex on their long journey to the Dales mentions that not all the elves went to their new land.

almostinsane99 wrote...

I am not talking about the humans here. I'm talking about the Dalish and the City Elves, who may or may not have different ideas than the Dalish as well as different culture which, as hard as it is for you to believe, they might be sort of attached to.

Sir JK brought this up in my elven thread (about the different elven cultures in Thedas potentially clashing), and I've already commented on her post a while back that I thought this was likely. There are a lot of different groups of elves living in Thedas.

almostinsane99 wrote...

The Dalish are nice people, when you agree with every point they make.

That sounds just like the Andrastian Chantry. We even have Chantry members threatening the Sabrae clan to convert.

almostinsane99 wrote...

But it's ludricrous to believe there won't be some conflict between the two groups of elves when one of them sees themselves as better. And I'm not talking about the City Elves

I'm sure there would be conflict, especially given Andrastian attitudes towards "heathens".

almostinsane99 wrote...

The Dalish look down on the City Elves for their "choice" to live among humans and I think it's not a stretch to guess this will carry on at least subconsciously. But, perhaps, if the Dalish are inccoruptible pure-hearted individuals, they would at least listen to the city elves.

Or they could decide the City Elves know nothing and are corrupted by living with humans.

Listen to what? How impoverished and powerless life is in the Alienage? How humans can wipe out men, women, and children at her discretion in purges? The Alienage elves are the descendants of the people who chose to give up everything to live in poverty and work menial jobs for people who don't respect them, and we know some of them also look down on the Dalish from the City Elf Origin. Life is so bad that some in Kirkwall converted to the Qun. I doubt the Dalish would ever think that submitting to human rule was the right choice.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 16 mai 2013 - 11:22 .