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[Xilizhra]

Dorrieb wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...
The Dalish are nice people, when you agree with every point they make.

They are arrogant, surly, condescending, deluded, self-important, narrow-minded, backwards pikey jerks, even if they do have a point. City Elves would do better to stick it out in 'human' society and contribute to its diversity than bow their heads to those retrograde losers.

I shouldn't worry about it though. The creators apparently view the elves as part of the background of the DA setting. They're not really going anywhere with it.

Don't count on this. The next book is primarily about the elf issue.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Xilizhra wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...
The Dalish are nice people, when you agree with every point they make.

They are arrogant, surly, condescending, deluded, self-important, narrow-minded, backwards pikey jerks, even if they do have a point. City Elves would do better to stick it out in 'human' society and contribute to its diversity than bow their heads to those retrograde losers.

I shouldn't worry about it though. The creators apparently view the elves as part of the background of the DA setting. They're not really going anywhere with it.

Don't count on this. The next book is primarily about the elf issue.

What?  The next book will primarily be about the Orlesian political situation, with Gaspard and Celene as the main focus of the book.

[Xilizhra]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Dorrieb wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...
The Dalish are nice people, when you agree with every point they make.

They are arrogant, surly, condescending, deluded, self-important, narrow-minded, backwards pikey jerks, even if they do have a point. City Elves would do better to stick it out in 'human' society and contribute to its diversity than bow their heads to those retrograde losers.

I shouldn't worry about it though. The creators apparently view the elves as part of the background of the DA setting. They're not really going anywhere with it.

Don't count on this. The next book is primarily about the elf issue.

What?  The next book will primarily be about the Orlesian political situation, with Gaspard and Celene as the main focus of the book.

Defined in large part by a major elf uprising. Also, I do hope we get to kick Gaspard's ass with extreme prejudice in DA3.

[EmperorSahlertz]

We most likely will But I have to object to claiming that the enxt book will focus primarily on the Elves. It very clearly describes itself as focusing on Orlais, and Celene and Gaspard in particular. The Elves will surely play a role, maybe even a major one, but they aren't the focus.

[Xilizhra]

They're a focus, certainly. Whether they're the focus is up for debate, but they're at least the second most important plot.

[Senya]

LobselVith8 wrote...

almostinsane99 wrote...

The Dalish look down on the City Elves for their "choice" to live among humans and I think it's not a stretch to guess this will carry on at least subconsciously. But, perhaps, if the Dalish are inccoruptible pure-hearted individuals, they would at least listen to the city elves.

Or they could decide the City Elves know nothing and are corrupted by living with humans.

Listen to what? How impoverished and powerless life is in the Alienage? How humans can wipe out men, women, and children at her discretion in purges? The Alienage elves are the descendants of the people who chose to give up everything to live in poverty and work menial jobs for people who don't respect them, and we know some of them also look down on the Dalish from the City Elf Origin. Life is so bad that some in Kirkwall converted to the Qun. I doubt the Dalish would ever think that submitting to human rule was the right choice.

That right there is the Dalish attitude I am most afraid of. I suppose Shianni is not competent enough because she lived in the Alienage? Or the City Elf Warden? I do not think the City Elves would advocate human rule. I do think that they would have their own ideas and that the Dalish would, if they operate with the attitude above, believe they are unfit for an equal partnership in a government.

This would couple with the fact that there are more City Elves than Dalish Elves, making it the rule of the minority based on blood and class. It would seem that the Dalish would reclaim their role as nobles.

And we all know the City Elves have good experiences in the past with nobles.

[Sir JK]

Dark Korsar wrote...

Sir JK if you forget not all of elves live in Dales after first blight, and many(not all) of them were join to Dales from other parts of Thedas

and a am sure that even not all of ancient elves were enslaved by Ancient Tevinter, because we know that some of them escape and live in Dwarf taigs and Arlathan was just a main city of all of their Thedas empire

..and thats explain how modern elves keep their knoledges after Tevinter slavery(and Tevinter forced them to forget many of what they have before)

and why no one care about Zatrian life spawn of more that 400 years(400 years after ritual when he was adult and have 2 childrens)

and Mahariel Warden father-was a Keeper of Sabre clan BEFORE Merethari(so she was First of father of our Dalish Warden) so father of our Dalish Warden was older than his First Merethari who replace him after his death from group of bandits

True my friend, some elves did stay in Tevinter (or settled along the way) and as you say there might even have been some descendants of Arlathan moving about. Would they be Dalish though, that is the question?
I just wish to clarify is that I don't count this as evidence that Dalish history is unreliable, merely a suggestion that it might not be entirly accurate. But more evidence would be needed before I consider his fact.

LobselVith8 wrote...

I
don't think anyone disputes that the Dalish had their own kingdom once.
The codex on their long journey to the Dales mentions that not all the
elves went to their new land.

That the elves had a kingdom of their own seems to be one of the few things both Dalish and Chantry hold as true, that and that they lost it. So I think we can be fairly certain of that being fact.

I'm sure there would be conflict, especially given Andrastian attitudes towards "heathens".

Perhaps. But I suspect that in any New Dales, the Dalish will rather quickly come to see themselves as the warriors, priests and rulers. Unlike the City elves, they already got experience in all fields (well.. not ruling) and well... they do consider themselves to be the heirs of the Dalish nobility after all...

So the question is if this potential Dalish nobility is as tolerant as they proclaim thmselves to be... or if they will decide to "educate" the city elves in "proper elven culture".

It'd be very interesting to see.

I doubt the Dalish would ever think that
submitting to human rule was the right choice.

Agreed. The question is what the Dalish would consider to be "submitting to human rule".

Xilizhra wrote...
Don't count on this. The next book is primarily about the elf issue.

Which is awesome. Orlais, politics and elves. It was as if that pitch was written to make me excited

[Asdrubael Vect]

Sir JK wrote...
 "Perhaps. But I suspect that in any New Dales, the Dalish will rather quickly come to see themselves as the warriors, priests and rulers. Unlike the City elves, they already got experience in all fields (well.. not ruling) and well... they do consider themselves to be the heirs of the Dalish nobility after all... 
So the question is if this potential Dalish nobility is as tolerant as they proclaim thmselves to be... or if they will decide to "educate" the city elves in "proper elven culture". 
It'd be very interesting to see. "

as we know that all Dalish clan what we see have this ranks

1)Keeper- 1 chief-mage(Keepers  have their own council when they(and Elders/Masters) share their knowledges when clans gather together)....i think that Dalish have their Keeper of Keepers

2)First to the Keeper - 1 second chief, mage aprentice(others mages sent to another clans to become Firsts and future Keepers), who become next Keeper after  death of the previous

3)Elder -some of old non-mages "Keepers"/teachers/"priests"

4)Master -some of non-mages smiths/craftsmen/trades...i think they have some mages smiths

5)Master Aprentices

6)Halla keepers(i dont know what they are part of Elders or Masters)

7)Hunters-many commons/soldiers
as we can understand Hunter and Master Aprentices is initial stage for all non mage dalish who after may become Elders and Masters

so dalish nobles is mages and non-mages Elders with Masters,


i think that Dalish would not have problem with City Elves, because they  all see themselves as descendants Arlatan and have mostly similar perception of their native culture(and most of city elfs not have any reasons to not learn that from Dalish)

so after some teaching of their forgotten culture City elf will become Dalish as Pol and others

and City elves have in most cases the same rank sistem but without mages what was taken to Circles by Orlais Chantry/Templars...they have Elders and Masters/Trades who do the same things

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 16 mai 2013 - 07:33 .

[Sir JK]

Dark Korsar wrote...

as we know that all Dalish clan what we see have this ranks

1)Keeper- 1 chief-mage(Keepers  have their own council when they(and Elders/Masters) share their knowledges when clans gather together)....i think that Dalish have their Keeper of Keepers

2)First to the Keeper - 1 second chief, mage aprentice(others mages sent to another clans), who become next Keeper after  death of the previous

3)Elder -old non-mages "Keepers"/teachers/"priests"

4)Master -smiths/craftsmen/trades

5)Master Aprentices

6)Halla keepers(i dont know what they are part of Elders or Masters)

7)Hunters- commons/soldiers
as we can understand Hunter and Master Aprentices is initial stage for all non mage dalish who after may become Elders and Masters

so dalish nobles is mages and non-mages Elders with Masters,

i not thinck that Dalish would have problem with City Elves, because they  all see themselves as descendants Arlatan and have mostly similar perception of their native culture(and most of city elfs not have any reasons to not learn that from Dalish)

so after some teaching of their forgotten culture City elf will become Dalish as Pol and others

and City elves have in most cases the same rank sistem but without mages what was taken by Chantry...they have Elders and Masters/Trades who do the same things

I'm not sure it's all that an accurate view of a dalish clan. The keeper is at the top, no doubt. But I think it's less a nice orderly ladder beneath and more overlapping responsibilities and different groups. I doubt a crafter outranks a senior hunter, they're probably more "equal in rank". And elders are probably more responsible for education than outright ordering the young kin around.

But every single one of these will, I suspect, be considered of more worth than any city elf (initially). Forming a "noble caste". The eager and accepting ones, like Pol, will be adopted much faster. But it's the ones that cling to the human bits that will be trouble, I suspect.

How will the Dalish crafters accept antivan elves and the entreprenurial spirit they've absorbed from there? How will elders and hunters handle the free spirits of fereldan elves. How will keepers handle the circle mages and rivaini elves approach to spirit, especially considering that the Dalish strictly forbid making use of spirits for any magical purpose (according to world of Thedas)? How will Dalish society handle elves that look upon Orlesian and Tevinter values as displays of progress? How will they handle the extreme piety and devotion to the chantry of Ander elves? The reverance of the dead of the Nevarran ones? and Qunari elves?

And how will they accept the ones that refuse to put this behind them?

Or worse yet... tries to spread it?

Now they only get elves that succeed at and wants to join the Dalish. A free elven homeland? That's going to attract a whole lot more different elves... with their own ideas.

Modifié par Sir JK, 16 mai 2013 - 07:35 .