283 réponses à ce sujet

[Mass Fraud]

I can definitely see this as dlc or a full expansion like DA Awakening but not included in DA3 vanilla.

[Deebo305]

No slaves and outcast deserve no homeland. TERVINTER 4 LIFE

[Annihilator27]

Would be awesome to see that. Hopefully the word my Dalish warden had with King Alistar...

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

And any elven specific views or ambitions they might have will be presented as ignorant, dangerous, wrong, and something the protagonist can talk them out of doing. (Like Merrill's Eluvian.)

Argh. This was not presented as wrong, it was possible to interpret it as wrong. It's equally possible to see it as being all good. Other characters may see it otherwise, but they're all wrong.

What bothers me is how Hawke can 'interpret' it as wrong when he knows nothing about the Eluvian, nothing about elven culture, nothing about the plight of the People, and nothing about the research Merrill has performed into the reconstruction of this ancient elven artifact. It's an example of Hawke condemning Merrill's research from a place of sheer ignorance that comes across as one of those classic "humans are right because they're human" moments that we sometimes see in science fiction and fantasy.

Which is one of the concerns I have with the fact that the new protagonist can only be human. We might have another scenario where a close-minded human is trying to impose his values and cultural views on the elves, even if he knows nothing about them. Unless the protagonist could be half-elven, as you once suggested as a compromise because of the 'human only' approach.

Getting back to the topic at hand, what would be nice is if the protagonist could learn about the plight of the elves living in the occupied kingdom of the Dales, and have the option able to help them. Perhaps working alongside the Dalish to help topple the Orlesian occupation while the civil war in Orlais is going on (because I couldn't care less about who ruled the Orlesian Empire), as well as the Mage-Templar War that has the rest of the world occupied.

[In Exile]

A better question is which elves you can help. Empowering the city elves is not the same as helping the Dalish create a racially pure and racially segregated utopia. 

LobselVith8 wrote...
What bothers me is how Hawke can 'interpret' it as wrong when he knows nothing about the Eluvian, nothing about elven culture, nothing about the plight of the People, and nothing about the research Merrill has performed into the reconstruction of this ancient elven artifact. It's an example of Hawke condemning Merrill's research from a place of sheer ignorance that comes across as one of those classic "humans are right because they're human" moments that we sometimes see in science fiction and fantasy.

That's not a fair description of the rivalry path. What Hawke condemns isn't the Eluvian or Merril's focus on Dalish history, but her behaviour in pursuing her goal. The mirror is just background - it features only insofar as it's the focus for Merrill's obsession, which is what the rivalry path is about. 

Now, you might say that characterizing it as obssession is wrong, that it's ambition, and that Merrill is doing the right thing. But there's no truth to the claim that Hawke condemns the Eluvian qua Eluvian. 

Which is one of the concerns I have with the fact that the new protagonist can only be human. We might have another scenario where a close-minded human is trying to impose his values and cultural views on the elves, even if he knows nothing about them. Unless the protagonist could be half-elven, as you once suggested as a compromise because of the 'human only' approach.

A half-elven protagonist could easily just see himself or herself as exclusive human. And an Elven protagonist could be exclusively a devout Andrastian. 

[LobselVith8]

In Exile wrote...

A better question is which elves you can help. Empowering the city elves is not the same as helping the Dalish create a racially pure and racially segregated utopia.

Are you surprised the elves who were enslaved by humans for centuries and had a neighbor who was invading every other neighbor to create an empire that followed a specific religion (which is why Drakon launched a series of Exalted Marches against the other city-states in order to create the Orleian Empire) wasn't welcoming the human conquerors with open arms?

You realize human societies practice segregation, with few exceptions. Elves are basically segregated in Alienages with little to no rights (given how they can be purged right down to their children, as we saw with the massacre at the orphanage in Denerim), while dwarves might have their own section to live in (like the dwarves in Kirkwall). The difference with the elves of the Dales was that they were trying to restore their culture, their religion, and their immortality, and they kept out an empire of invaders in the process.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What bothers me is how Hawke can 'interpret' it as wrong when he knows nothing about the Eluvian, nothing about elven culture, nothing about the plight of the People, and nothing about the research Merrill has performed into the reconstruction of this ancient elven artifact. It's an example of Hawke condemning Merrill's research from a place of sheer ignorance that comes across as one of those classic "humans are right because they're human" moments that we sometimes see in science fiction and fantasy.

That's not a fair description of the rivalry path. What Hawke condemns isn't the Eluvian or Merril's focus on Dalish history, but her behaviour in pursuing her goal. The mirror is just background - it features only insofar as it's the focus for Merrill's obsession, which is what the rivalry path is about. 

Now, you might say that characterizing it as obssession is wrong, that it's ambition, and that Merrill is doing the right thing. But there's no truth to the claim that Hawke condemns the Eluvian qua Eluvian.

As opposed to Hawke's goal to become rich so he can have a fancy mansion, wear silk robes, and become a noble, even though it requires him to get other people to risk their lives against darkspawn, the taint, and monsters? I think trying to stop the downfall of the People and improve the lives of the elves is a more worthy goal, and Hawke's condemnation of Merrill in Rivalry was offensive and absurd when he asks people to risk their lives for far, far less.

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Which is one of the concerns I have with the fact that the new protagonist can only be human. We might have another scenario where a close-minded human is trying to impose his values and cultural views on the elves, even if he knows nothing about them. Unless the protagonist could be half-elven, as you once suggested as a compromise because of the 'human only' approach.

A half-elven protagonist could easily just see himself or herself as exclusive human. And an Elven protagonist could be exclusively a devout Andrastian. 

I was thinking more along the lines of someone like Feynriel, who has a Dalish mother and a human father, but follows the Creators instead of the Maker. And I have no interest in a devout Andrastian protagonist.

[Kommunicating]

PUSH THE SHEMLEN BACK, RECLAIM OUR HOMELAND. D<

On a more serious note, I hope so. The elves are such a complex people that have endured much and up to this point, I think they've had enough. I see this either being implemented into DA3 as in Asunder, there were a number of elven uprisings, or into an expansion/dlc. Hope to see atleast SOMETHING. I feel like the elven rebellion is inevitable.

[Chaos Lord Malek]

Giving elves back their land would be terrible cliche(Not to mention its not THEIRS land and they lost it because they are ****holes). I would rather have them either exterminated or IF chantry is abolished have them put into slavery or something cruel.

[omgodzilla]

Kind of hard to imagine how a bunch of elves from various different tribes could manage to conquer an area that is currently held by one of the most powerful nations in the world. They would probably have to resort to guerrilla tactics kind of like what the Taliban does with NATO forces. I myself would love the option of siding with the Orlesians and putting a very brutal end to the elven rebellion.

[IanPolaris]

omgodzilla wrote...

Kind of hard to imagine how a bunch of elves from various different tribes could manage to conquer an area that is currently held by one of the most powerful nations in the world. They would probably have to resort to guerrilla tactics kind of like what the Taliban does with NATO forces. I myself would love the option of siding with the Orlesians and putting a very brutal end to the elven rebellion.

It's not so hard if you posit that the powerful nation is undergoing a brutal civil war, and that basic authority even at the most mundane level is almost non-existent.  Add to that extreme instability from an ongoing Templar-Mage conflict along with a near neighbor that is traditionally non-expansionistic and currently militarily weak from the last blight (Ferelden) along with some great defensive terrain (Frostback Mtns), and i can see it.

Putting down an insurgency in this area would require a lot of troops and monetary commitment that Orlais may not be able to afford.

-Polaris

[Mr.House]

I rather this topic be explored in it's own game. One of the biggest issues in DA2 was that the game tried to cram a Qunari conflict along with a mage/Templar conflict. This led to the Qunari conflict being fantastic where the Mage/Templar conflict being very disappointing.

As for the topic at hand, after the two incidents with two different Dalish clans, I really have no desire to help them at all personally until I'm shown there are other clans that are not so stupid.City elves though? Yes I would help them in a instant, but not Dalish elves.

Modifié par Mr.House, 09 mai 2013 - 06:35 .

[Kidd]

Dave of Canada wrote...

A bunch of rag-tag elves spread across the world can't begin to dream of getting a homeland.

But I want to build Merrill a house in her homeland.

[MissOuJ]

IanPolaris wrote...

It's not so hard if you posit that the powerful nation is undergoing a brutal civil war, and that basic authority even at the most mundane level is almost non-existent.  Add to that extreme instability from an ongoing Templar-Mage conflict along with a near neighbor that is traditionally non-expansionistic and currently militarily weak from the last blight (Ferelden) along with some great defensive terrain (Frostback Mtns), and i can see it.

Putting down an insurgency in this area would require a lot of troops and monetary commitment that Orlais may not be able to afford.

-Polaris

Exactly! It would be a perfect opportunity for the elves to start a rebellion and retake the Dales. And even if it's not the main theme/plot point of DA:I, if this is going to come up in the future games, I think it would be good to at least lay some groundwork here - like, at least a semi-big side mission or something.

[Herr Uhl]

simfamSP wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

I rather this topic be explored in it's own game. One of the biggest issues in DA2 was that the game tried to cram a Qunari conflict along with a mage/Templar conflict. This led to the Qunari conflict being fantastic where the Mage/Templar conflict being very disappointing.

As for the topic at hand, after the two incidents with two different Dalish clans, I really have no desire to help them at all personally until I'm shown there are other clans that are not so stupid.City elves though? Yes I would help them in a instant, but not Dalish elves.

How were the Dalish stupid?

Serioulsy, refresh my memory.

One Dalish clan is led by a man who started a werewolf curse to punish humans that backfired on his clan. Who would've thunk that having werewolves around could be a bad thing?

[Plaintiff]

Xilizhra wrote...

I would be quite happy to take a stab at this.

Literally.

[Plaintiff]

Mass Fraud wrote...

Oh god no, I hope Velanna doesn't come back.
Unless she's not crazy anymore.

There's no reason to think she would be, since her entire character arc is about helping her become less hateful towards humans.

[Plaintiff]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Giving elves back their land would be terrible cliche(Not to mention its not THEIRS land and they lost it because they are ****holes). I would rather have them either exterminated or IF chantry is abolished have them put into slavery or something cruel.

Yeah, those evil elves. How dare they have the audacity to be invaded by humans and robbed of their homeland. Serves them right for minding their own business.

[Ausstig]

Plaintiff wrote...

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Giving elves back their land would be terrible cliche(Not to mention its not THEIRS land and they lost it because they are ****holes). I would rather have them either exterminated or IF chantry is abolished have them put into slavery or something cruel.

Yeah, those evil elves. How dare they have the audacity to be invaded by humans and robbed of their homeland. Serves them right for minding their own business.

And letting the blight ravage the land RIGHT next to theirs with no effort to stop it and invading the humans, after killing their ambassadoors.

hmmm diffently the complet victims.


On a better note, I would not like to see it happen as the DA elves are unique and giving them a homeland would cheapen that.

[Xilizhra]

And letting the blight ravage the land RIGHT next to theirs with no effort to stop it and invading the humans, after killing their ambassadoors.

Spies and thugs trying to get them to convert under threat of force, you mean. Orlais has never been friendly; there's never been a reason to stick one's neck out for it (there's still not).

On a better note, I would not like to see it happen as the DA elves are unique and giving them a homeland would cheapen that.

Why not remove the homeland of humans and make them unique?

[LobselVith8]

Ausstig wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Yeah, those evil elves. How dare they have the audacity to be invaded by humans and robbed of their homeland. Serves them right for minding their own business. 

And letting the blight ravage the land RIGHT next to theirs with no effort to stop it and invading the humans, after killing their ambassadoors.

The elves of the kingdom of the Dales didn't help an empire that was conquering its neighbors, and had issues with the Dales to the extent that it prevented Emperor Drakon from conquering the Free Marches? I'm really not surprised they didn't help imperialists who threatened their culture and their sovereignty.

The Orlesians claim the elves started the war. There's more than one side to the story, however. The Dalish claim that the Chantry sent templars into the Dales because the elves refused to convert to the Andrastian Chantry, and kicked out the missionaries who tried to convert them, which is the same reason the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry of Andraste and their religion.

Given the Orlesian invasion of other nations throughout history with support from their symbiotic partner - the Chantry - some people are inclined to think the empire that has invaded other nations since its inception might have invaded the nation of the Dales.

Ausstig wrote...

hmmm diffently the complet victims.

You mean the Andrastians who see non-Andrastians as "heathens", to the point where their historical note has the Andrastian Chantry calling many Exalted Marches against the Imperial Chantry for being "heathens".

Ausstig wrote...

On a better note, I would not like to see it happen as the DA elves are unique and giving them a homeland would cheapen that.

The elves either live in poverty in human cities, or live nomadic lives because the templars hunt them down. Giving them their own homeland wouldn't cheapen that, as there are a plethora of stories that can be told about the many culturally different elves coming together to create a homeland where they can be equals, instead of servants or slaves.

[Plaintiff]

Ausstig wrote...

And letting the blight ravage the land RIGHT next to theirs with no effort to stop it and invading the humans, after killing their ambassadoors.

Assuming that's even the true story, and not the usual pack of Chantry lies.

It's more likely that the Elves of the Dales were hard-pressed simply defending their own borders from the Blight. Unless you seriously believe that the Darkspawn swept through all the neighbouring lands and just left Halamshiral alone for no reason.

hmmm diffently the complet victims.

Even if I accept that the Elves of the Dales did refuse to ally with Orlais against the Blight, that doesn't justify the subsequent actions taken by Orlais.

The elves were not in any way obligated to help against the Blight any more than any country is obligated to follow, say, the USA in its 'war against terror'.

On a better note, I would not like to see it happen as the DA elves are unique and giving them a homeland would cheapen that.

They're really not.

[iOnlySignIn]

WittingEight65 wrote...

I would like the chance to eradicate the elves :X

There's no need. They are going the way of the dodo all by themselves.