283 réponses à ce sujet

[iOnlySignIn]

On topic, why, why would the Elves want the Dales back? If I were an Elf I'd want to move as far away from Orlais and Tevinter as possible, to places like Ferelden, Rivain, or Par Vollen.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 09 mai 2013 - 12:59 .

[TK514]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

On topic, why, why would the Elves want the Dales back? If I were an Elf I'd want to move as far away from Orlais and Tevinter as possible, to places like Ferelden, Rivain, or Par Vollen.

That's an excellent point.  Why engage in a protracted war, setting up next to neighbors who will no doubt invade again at a later date, when you can set up next to neighbors who actually want you there?  Such as the Rivaini and Llomerryn.

[cJohnOne]

Isn't Rivani too close to Par Vollen and the qun? I think an Island like Llomerryn would be perfect for the elves.

[Lulupab]

but it still would make sense if some of Dalish elves at least tried to get back Dales for the sake of similarity of the names lol. It would make interesting plot. It adds to the chaos in Orlais.

[Ausstig]

A lot of stories have the Elves as an ancient and powerful race, having them live in poverty and slavery is something I have not seen before. Same with the nomads. Giving them a nation would take that away, while the tale of trying to forge a nation out what amount to a bunch of disparate clans and maybe some slum dwellers could be interesting, it would need to be done well and that requires 'screen time' that should be used on the main focus of the game; ie Orlais civil war and Mage-Temp War. Save the Elves for next time.

[The Elder King]

Plaintiff wrote...


Even if I accept that the Elves of the Dales did refuse to ally with Orlais against the Blight, that doesn't justify the subsequent actions taken by Orlais.

The elves were not in any way obligated to help against the Blight any more than any country is obligated to follow, say, the USA in its 'war against terror'.

While I agree on the bolded parts of your post, I'd say your comparison isn't that right.
About the OP, I'd say it's likely that that the elves will try to get back the Dales, considering the chaos caused by the mage-templar war and the Orlesian civil war. Don't know if we'll have the option of help them/stop them.

Modifié par hhh89, 09 mai 2013 - 02:55 .

[Palidane]

Plaintiff wrote...

Assuming that's even the true story, and not the usual pack of Chantry lies.

Oh for God's sake. Do we have any record of the Chantry lying about anything?

Even if I accept that the Elves of the Dales did refuse to ally with Orlais against the Blight, that doesn't justify the subsequent actions taken by Orlais.

The elves were not in any way obligated to help against the Blight any more than any country is obligated to follow, say, the USA in its 'war against terror'.

I agree it doesn't excuse the follow-up invasion, but there is quite a difference between The States throwing down with Iraq and a blight consuming the world. The Darkspawn are the enemies of all, and at their coming all other quarrels should be forgotten (quoth the hobbit). It is completely inexcuseable to have a large army lazing about on a nearby hill watching a fortified city be destroyed and massacred by darkspawn. If nothing else, it's one less fortress they can use to defend their western border. 

Modifié par Palidane, 09 mai 2013 - 03:23 .

[Aolbain]

I hope they don't. There are new people living there now, people whose ancestors have lived there for century's.

Modifié par Aolbain, 09 mai 2013 - 03:44 .

[Plaintiff]

Palidane wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Assuming that's even the true story, and not the usual pack of Chantry lies.

Oh for God's sake. Do we have any record of the Chantry lying about anything?

Since they are unable or unwilling to produce supporting evidence for any of their claims, their entire doctrine should be considered false until further notice.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 09 mai 2013 - 05:15 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Plaintiff wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Assuming that's even the true story, and not the usual pack of Chantry lies.

Oh for God's sake. Do we have any record of the Chantry lying about anything?

Since they are unable or unwilling to produce supporting evidence for any of their claims, their entire doctrine should be considered false until further notice.

Do you mean the Chantry, or Bioware?

For all we know, the Chant, in its full text, explains and documents every scrap of their history and traditions. We, as players, don't know because Bioware hasn't shown us what the Chant covers.

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Do you mean the Chantry, or Bioware?

The Chantry, of course. Bioware, as creators of the fictional universe, are the ones who decide what is or is not true.

For all we know, the Chant, in its full text, explains and documents every scrap of their history and traditions. We, as players, don't know because Bioware hasn't shown us what the Chant covers.

On the contrary, we know that the Chant, much like the Christian Bible, has had sections either lost or deliberately removed on more than one occasion. The Book of Shartan, for instance, was struck from the Chant during the Exalted March on the Dales.

So the Chant is not a reliable source even for the Chantry's own mythology, let alone any actual history.

Even if it meticulously (and truthfully) recorded every single detail of its history, there are some things it claims to know that it in fact does not (barring the possibility of future dramatic reveals). IE, the origin of the Darkspawn.

[lil yonce]

Plaintiff wrote...

On the contrary, we know that the Chant, much like the Christian Bible, has had sections either lost or deliberately removed on more than one occasion. The Book of Shartan, for instance, was struck from the Chant during the Exalted March on the Dales.So the Chant is not a reliable source even for the Chantry's own mythology, let alone any actual history. Even if it meticulously (and truthfully) recorded every single detail of its history, there are some things it claims to know that it in fact does not (barring the possibility of future dramatic reveals). IE, the origin of the Darkspawn.

A Chantry omission does not compromise the integrity of the Chant. It compromises an interpretation of it. And the Chanty/Chant of Light seems dead on about the origin of the darkspawn after Legacy. Even Anders wonders what other knowledge the Chantry has that's he's written off as propaganda.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 09 mai 2013 - 05:35 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

On the contrary, we know that the Chant, much like the Christian Bible, has had sections either lost or deliberately removed on more than one occasion. The Book of Shartan, for instance, was struck from the Chant during the Exalted March on the Dales.So the Chant is not a reliable source even for the Chantry's own mythology, let alone any actual history. Even if it meticulously (and truthfully) recorded every single detail of its history, there are some things it claims to know that it in fact does not (barring the possibility of future dramatic reveals). IE, the origin of the Darkspawn.

A Chantry omission does not compromise the integrity of the Chant. It compromises an interpretation of it. And the Chanty seems dead on about the origin of the darkspawn after Legacy. Even Anders wonders what other knowledge the Chantry has that's he's written off as propaganda.

Agreed.

The Book of Shartan, for all we know, could be similar to the Christian Gospels. The books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all tell a fairly similar story about the three years of the ministry of Jesus, just from slightly different perspectives. But the book of 1st and 2nd Kings is an accounting of history that is not covered anywhere else. The Book of Shartan could have just been a book discussing Shartan's perspective on Andraste and the events surrounding her crusade and nothing more, events that are covered in other parts of the Chant. It doesn't discount the fact that there could be much more fact-oriented sections of the Chant that may have been more or less useful to the correct accounting of time.

We don't know because Bioware has not told us. Assuming just because Bioware hasn't told us means that the Chant contains outright falsehoods is a little misleading. 

As 4Ever said... if Anders is saying that maybe the Chant was more on the money that he thought, then there is bound to be some truth to it. That would be like Richard Dawkins saying "maybe this whole religion thing has got a point..."

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 09 mai 2013 - 05:44 .

[IanPolaris]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

On the contrary, we know that the Chant, much like the Christian Bible, has had sections either lost or deliberately removed on more than one occasion. The Book of Shartan, for instance, was struck from the Chant during the Exalted March on the Dales.So the Chant is not a reliable source even for the Chantry's own mythology, let alone any actual history. Even if it meticulously (and truthfully) recorded every single detail of its history, there are some things it claims to know that it in fact does not (barring the possibility of future dramatic reveals). IE, the origin of the Darkspawn.

A Chantry omission does not compromise the integrity of the Chant. It compromises an interpretation of it. And the Chanty/Chant of Light seems dead on about the origin of the darkspawn after Legacy. Even Anders wonders what other knowledge the Chantry has that's he's written off as propaganda.

Two things:

1.  If the Chantry excises and modifies the chant to suit it's own political needs, then any reliance on it is suspect at best (this btw is true of the bible as well).

2.  The Chantry does NOT seem to be "dead on" about the origin of the Darkspawn given that  the city was "already black" and given that Shaperate records (that have no reason to lie either way) place the first darkspawn to be considerably older than what the Chantry would have you believe.....and Anders is on the record several places during the main game (both DA2 and DAA) as fully believing the Chantry version anyway.  His characterization in Legacy is simply no coherent with what Anders believes elsewhere.

-Polaris

[Fast Jimmy]

IanPolaris wrote...

2.  The Chantry does NOT seem to be "dead on" about the origin of the Darkspawn given that  the city was "already black" and given that Shaperate records (that have no reason to lie either way) place the first darkspawn to be considerably older than what the Chantry would have you believe.....and Anders is on the record several places during the main game (both DA2 and DAA) as fully believing the Chantry version anyway.  His characterization in Legacy is simply no coherent with what Anders believes elsewhere.

-Polaris

From my perspective, I felt like Corypheus was saying the Golden City WAS golden... but upon walking in, it was black inside, which was released into the world, matching the outside to its inside.

That's the problems with the ramblings of ancient, corrupted beings... they are always so vague!

[Herr Uhl]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

As 4Ever said... if Anders is saying that maybe the Chant was more on the money that he thought, then there is bound to be some truth to it. That would be like Richard Dawkins saying "maybe this whole religion thing has got a point..."

Isn't Anders an Andrastian, but he dislikes the chantry?

[Chaos Lord Malek]

Plaintiff wrote...

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Giving elves back their land would be terrible cliche(Not to mention its not THEIRS land and they lost it because they are ****holes). I would rather have them either exterminated or IF chantry is abolished have them put into slavery or something cruel.

Yeah, those evil elves. How dare they have the audacity to be invaded by humans and robbed of their homeland. Serves them right for minding their own business.

Read World of Thedas please - first the Elves just stood (ala Hobbit) and looked like Blight ravaged Orlei. And then THEY attacked the Orlei first. They even manage to push to the capital, but then got beaten down and exalt-marched into the City Elves.

[IanPolaris]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Giving elves back their land would be terrible cliche(Not to mention its not THEIRS land and they lost it because they are ****holes). I would rather have them either exterminated or IF chantry is abolished have them put into slavery or something cruel.

Yeah, those evil elves. How dare they have the audacity to be invaded by humans and robbed of their homeland. Serves them right for minding their own business.

Read World of Thedas please - first the Elves just stood (ala Hobbit) and looked like Blight ravaged Orlei. And then THEY attacked the Orlei first. They even manage to push to the capital, but then got beaten down and exalt-marched into the City Elves.

The Elves tell a different story, and given that Orlais was openly expansionistic and Dale was highly isolationist, I find the Elven story much more plausible.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

2.  The Chantry does NOT seem to be "dead on" about the origin of the Darkspawn given that  the city was "already black" and given that Shaperate records (that have no reason to lie either way) place the first darkspawn to be considerably older than what the Chantry would have you believe.....and Anders is on the record several places during the main game (both DA2 and DAA) as fully believing the Chantry version anyway.  His characterization in Legacy is simply no coherent with what Anders believes elsewhere.

-Polaris

From my perspective, I felt like Corypheus was saying the Golden City WAS golden... but upon walking in, it was black inside, which was released into the world, matching the outside to its inside.

That's the problems with the ramblings of ancient, corrupted beings... they are always so vague!

Cory pretty clearly states that the city was already black.  Also the Darkspawn (going by Shaparate records) seem to be a lot older than the Chantry would imply.

-POlaris

[Dave of Canada]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Isn't Anders an Andrastian, but he dislikes the chantry?

He's Andrastian but seems to dislike the Chant, seeing it as nothing but bull**** established to hate mages even more. He acknowledges it might not all be bull**** at the end.

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Read World of Thedas please - first the Elves just stood (ala Hobbit) and looked like Blight ravaged Orlei. And then THEY attacked the Orlei first. They even manage to push to the capital, but then got beaten down and exalt-marched into the City Elves.

How dare you argue differing opinions established in lore! You dare question the purity of the elven people?! They are innocent little snowflakes just like mages and must be protected at all costs! WIPE OUT HUMANITY FOR BEING IGNORANT! DESTROY SOCIETY!

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 09 mai 2013 - 05:49 .

[Fast Jimmy]

IanPolaris wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

2.  The Chantry does NOT seem to be "dead on" about the origin of the Darkspawn given that  the city was "already black" and given that Shaperate records (that have no reason to lie either way) place the first darkspawn to be considerably older than what the Chantry would have you believe.....and Anders is on the record several places during the main game (both DA2 and DAA) as fully believing the Chantry version anyway.  His characterization in Legacy is simply no coherent with what Anders believes elsewhere.

-Polaris

From my perspective, I felt like Corypheus was saying the Golden City WAS golden... but upon walking in, it was black inside, which was released into the world, matching the outside to its inside.

That's the problems with the ramblings of ancient, corrupted beings... they are always so vague!

Cory pretty clearly states that the city was already black.  Also the Darkspawn (going by Shaparate records) seem to be a lot older than the Chantry would imply.

-POlaris

Yes, but why would he think that it should be anything BUT black? Why would the black island with a city floating in the Fade be called anything BUT the Black City in all of history? 

The City could have used to be Golden ON THE OUTSIDE. Then, when the Magisters got in, they found it was darkness, evil and blackness in it... a darkness which corrupted the outside of the city and the magisters themselves.

Again... it is not clear. The city was black, yes. But black where, not to mention why that would be a surprise if the city was black on the outside, is the real question.

[IanPolaris]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Isn't Anders an Andrastian, but he dislikes the chantry?

He's Andrastian but seems to dislike the Chant, seeing it as nothing but bull**** established to hate mages even more. He acknowledges it might not all be bull**** at the end.

Anders characterization in Legacy consisted of the Fecal Matter of a Bovine from start to finish.  Consider that Anders many times during the rest of the game openly states that he believes the Chantry version of how the Darkspawn came to be.  He merely thinks the Chantry is overreacting to it.

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Read World of Thedas please - first the Elves just stood (ala Hobbit) and looked like Blight ravaged Orlei. And then THEY attacked the Orlei first. They even manage to push to the capital, but then got beaten down and exalt-marched into the City Elves.

How dare you argue differing opinions established in lore! You dare question the purity of the elven people?! They are innocent little snowflakes just like mages and must be protected at all costs! WIPE OUT HUMANITY FOR BEING IGNORANT! DESTROY SOCIETY!

Minus the sarcasm, I agree.  Bioware should not be taking canonical sides here.  It's suspicously close to rewriting your own lore to win your own argument.

-Polaris

[lil yonce]

IanPolaris wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

On the contrary, we know that the Chant, much like the Christian Bible, has had sections either lost or deliberately removed on more than one occasion. The Book of Shartan, for instance, was struck from the Chant during the Exalted March on the Dales.So the Chant is not a reliable source even for the Chantry's own mythology, let alone any actual history. Even if it meticulously (and truthfully) recorded every single detail of its history, there are some things it claims to know that it in fact does not (barring the possibility of future dramatic reveals). IE, the origin of the Darkspawn.

A Chantry omission does not compromise the integrity of the Chant. It compromises an interpretation of it. And the Chanty/Chant of Light seems dead on about the origin of the darkspawn after Legacy. Even Anders wonders what other knowledge the Chantry has that's he's written off as propaganda.

Two things:

1.  If the Chantry excises and modifies the chant to suit it's own political needs, then any reliance on it is suspect at best (this btw is true of the bible as well).

And you have evidence or hints that the Chantry has modified the wording of the Chantry. That's a much different claim from an omission. And like the bible, changing the wording without notice would be hard to accomplish. It wasn't first written in the modern language so scholars would be able to look back on the older texts and compare, and like the bible I would assume the Chant would have been copied down so many times and spread throughout the world for ages, the events and wording from a body of copied and original texts would lend credibility towards illicit Chantry changes should accusations be brought forth.

2.  The Chantry does NOT seem to be "dead on" about the origin of the Darkspawn given that  the city was "already black"

I also think it was already black but not for the reasons you do so it doesn't change my opinion.
http://social.biowar.../index/15202307

and given that Shaperate records (that have no reason to lie either way) place the first darkspawn to be considerably older than what the Chantry would have you believe.....and Anders is on the record several places during the main game (both DA2 and DAA) as fully believing the Chantry version anyway.  His characterization in Legacy is simply no coherent with what Anders believes elsewhere.-Polaris

Anders is confronted with irrefutable evidence in Legacy. The Chantry didn't make up a tale about mages to subjugate them. That all happened. He updates his stance after seeing proof firsthand. Why is that unreasonable or against his characterization? He'd be a fool if he kept saying the Chantry made it all up despite seeing Corypheus with his own two eyes.

[IanPolaris]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yes, but why would he think that it should be anything BUT black? Why would the black island with a city floating in the Fade be called anything BUT the Black City in all of history? 

We don't know that it wasn't.  The codex is very good about not describing the fade with enough detail to know from ancient days.  However, if there was a golden city as prominent as the black city is now, I would have thought it would have been mentioned in the Ancient Tevinter Records (and others) and it's not.

The City could have used to be Golden ON THE OUTSIDE. Then, when the Magisters got in, they found it was darkness, evil and blackness in it... a darkness which corrupted the outside of the city and the magisters themselves.

Citation needed.

Again... it is not clear. The city was black, yes. But black where, not to mention why that would be a surprise if the city was black on the outside, is the real question.

You are making something up out of whole cloth, and using it to justify a pre-existing believe.  I posit that the city was already black and appeal to Occam's razor.  Regardless Cory was very clear.  The city was black and corrupt when he got there.  He believed it would be golden but it wasn't.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Youth4Ever wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

On the contrary, we know that the Chant, much like the Christian Bible, has had sections either lost or deliberately removed on more than one occasion. The Book of Shartan, for instance, was struck from the Chant during the Exalted March on the Dales.So the Chant is not a reliable source even for the Chantry's own mythology, let alone any actual history. Even if it meticulously (and truthfully) recorded every single detail of its history, there are some things it claims to know that it in fact does not (barring the possibility of future dramatic reveals). IE, the origin of the Darkspawn.

A Chantry omission does not compromise the integrity of the Chant. It compromises an interpretation of it. And the Chanty/Chant of Light seems dead on about the origin of the darkspawn after Legacy. Even Anders wonders what other knowledge the Chantry has that's he's written off as propaganda.

Two things:

1.  If the Chantry excises and modifies the chant to suit it's own political needs, then any reliance on it is suspect at best (this btw is true of the bible as well).

And you have evidence or hints that the Chantry has modified the wording of the Chantry. That's a much different claim from an omission. And like the bible, changing the wording without notice would be hard to accomplish. It wasn't first written in the modern language so scholars would be able to look back on the older texts and compare, and like the bible I would assume the Chant would have been copied down so many times and spread throughout the world for ages, the events and wording from a body of copied and original texts would lend credibility towards illicit Chantry changes should accusations be brought forth.

We are told that the Chantry has modified the chant and they do it all the time.  Go back to DAO and speak with the two Chantry sisters.  In fact the very act of translation requires this.  It also allows new interpretations to be added and old ones to be quietly dropped.  It is one reason why IRL, Islam (both main branches) do not accept any translation of the Quaran as valid.

2.  The Chantry does NOT seem to be "dead on" about the origin of the Darkspawn given that  the city was "already black"

I also think it was already black but not for the reasons you do so it doesn't change my opinion.
http://social.biowar.../index/15202307

At this point, you are admitting the literal Chantry story is already in error (or at least more complex than it seems)

and given that Shaperate records (that have no reason to lie either way) place the first darkspawn to be considerably older than what the Chantry would have you believe.....and Anders is on the record several places during the main game (both DA2 and DAA) as fully believing the Chantry version anyway.  His characterization in Legacy is simply no coherent with what Anders believes elsewhere.-Polaris

Anders is confronted with irrefutable evidence in Legacy. The Chantry didn't make up a tale about mages to subjugate them. That all happened. He updates his stance after seeing proof firsthand. Why is that unreasonable or against his characterization? He'd be a fool if he kept saying the Chantry made it all up despite seeing Corypheus with his own two eyes.

Everything Anders says and does in Legacy needs to be ignored since it is completely contrary and out of character with everything else Anders says and believes the entire rest of the game and prior games.  Anders both in DA2 and DAA has openly stated that be fully believes the Chantry wnen it comes to this. 

-Polaris