283 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Youth4Ever wrote...
A Chantry omission does not compromise the integrity of the Chant.

It absolutely does, what a stupid thing to say.

If people can just edit the Chant whenever they please, for totally selfish reasons, then it can't be even slightly trusted. We don't know how much of the original document is even left, or if it was truly authored by the people the Chantry claims it was authored by.

It compromises an interpretation of it.

It compromises all possible interpretations, because people are now working with an altered text. Information has been removed specifically to prevent readers from coming up with a particular interpretation that might reflect poorly on the Chantry.

And the Chanty/Chant of Light seems dead on about the origin of the darkspawn after Legacy.

Then you weren't paying attention. The Golden City was "already black" when Corypheus and his friends got there. Besides which, dwarven records of darkspawn sightings predate those of the Chantry.

Even if, by some miracle, the Chant of Light was accurate, the Chantry has no right to be making such claims in the first place, because it has no evidence. Just because an asspull turns out to be correct doesn't make it any less of an asspull. By that logic, we should start convicting murder suspects with 'Eeny Meeny Miney Mo'.

Even Anders wonders what other knowledge the Chantry has that's he's written off as propaganda.

So what?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 09 mai 2013 - 06:04 .

[Palidane]

Plaintiff wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Assuming that's even the true story, and not the usual pack of Chantry lies.

Oh for God's sake. Do we have any record of the Chantry lying about anything?

Since they are unable or unwilling to produce supporting evidence for any of their claims, their entire doctrine should be considered false until further notice.

Dude, did you have your eyes closed when you got the Sacred Ashes of Andraste? Maybe some laser-guided amnesia when you talked to Corypheus? The Chantry is rolling in evidence for their claims. Unlike the Dalish, who havent offered a shred of proof for any of their beliefs. If not for the Eluvian, I would say there's no reason to think Arlathan ever existed!

The thing is, Dragon Age is not a game about archeologists. Just because you haven't stumbled over a codex entry with "sufficient evidence" doesn't mean it doesn exist. If you think that the universe is defined by what the Protagonist hears, then there's no reason to ever believe anything anybody says.

[lil yonce]

IanPolaris wrote...

We are told that the Chantry has modified the chant and they do it all the time.  Go back to DAO and speak with the two Chantry sisters.  In fact the very act of translation requires this.  It also allows new interpretations to be added and old ones to be quietly dropped.  It is one reason why IRL, Islam (both main branches) do not accept any translation of the Quaran as valid.

Modifying the wording so modern people can understand the original intent is different from modifying the wording to fit your own intent as a church.

At this point, you are admitting the literal Chantry story is already in error (or at least more complex than it seems)

No, I agree with the version in the Chanty of Light. I haven't seen anything to disprove it. On the contray I think reason and a study of the Chant justifies its version of events.

Everything Anders says and does in Legacy needs to be ignored since it is completely contrary and out of character with everything else Anders says and believes the entire rest of the game and prior games.  Anders both in DA2 and DAA has openly stated that be fully believes the Chantry wnen it comes to this.  -Polaris

I don't remember him saying anything about the origin of the darkspawn in DA:OA. And I don't remember him saying anything about it in the DA2 vanilla game. Only thing I remember him saying is that the Chantry shouldn't punish mages for fear of another Tevinter or because Andraste fought tyrannical mages. I don't recall him saying anything about the darkspawn origin but if you do you can refresh my memory.

[Plaintiff]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...
Read World of Thedas please - first the Elves just stood (ala Hobbit) and looked like Blight ravaged Orlei. And then THEY attacked the Orlei first. They even manage to push to the capital, but then got beaten down and exalt-marched into the City Elves.

Even if taking away a conquered nation's land is even slightly justified (it's not, just by the way), that's all irrelevent.

I was talking about the original invasion of Thedas. Humans had no business being on the entire continent, let alone the Dales specifically.

Those evil elves, how dare they try to take back their property.

[Sir JK]

IanPolaris wrote...

The Elves tell a different story, and given that Orlais was openly expansionistic and Dale was highly isolationist, I find the Elven story much more plausible.

-Polaris

The problem with the elven story is that it mentions first missionaries and then templars, followed by the destruction of the dales.

Yet the missionaries had been active for 120 years when the war started and the templars had been around for 80. You can fake a number of things in history by clever writing, sure, but everyone would have noticed if the Orlesians would have fabricated their presence.

If that is the true cause of the war... it sure took the elves an awfully long time to realise they were about.

There's also the little complicated bit with the elven source... it's from after the fall of the Dales. It's not contemporary...

Sure, the Chantry tales probably contain a little polish, a little embellishment and a fair few adjustments.
But the Dalish one omitts telling us about the war... it only tells us the result...

Not to mention that the Dalish pride themselves in being the victims...

I would strongly suggest taking the Dalish account with as much salt as the Chantry/Orlesian one.

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff wrote...

Then you weren't paying attention. The Golden City was "already black" when Corypheus and his friends got there. Besides which, dwarven records of darkspawn sightings predate those of the Chantry.

I see people state it before, but is there a link that shows that the Dwarven records of darkspawn encounters predates The Tevinter's GC trip?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 09 mai 2013 - 06:12 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Giving elves back their land would be terrible cliche(Not to mention its not THEIRS land and they lost it because they are ****holes). I would rather have them either exterminated or IF chantry is abolished have them put into slavery or something cruel.

Yeah, those evil elves. How dare they have the audacity to be invaded by humans and robbed of their homeland. Serves them right for minding their own business.

Read World of Thedas please - first the Elves just stood (ala Hobbit) and looked like Blight ravaged Orlei. And then THEY attacked the Orlei first. They even manage to push to the capital, but then got beaten down and exalt-marched into the City Elves.

full sourse please, and who author of this version(and i am sure that this is some chantry brother/sister)

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 09 mai 2013 - 06:11 .

[lil yonce]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

On the contrary, we know that the Chant, much like the Christian Bible, has had sections either lost or deliberately removed on more than one occasion. The Book of Shartan, for instance, was struck from the Chant during the Exalted March on the Dales.So the Chant is not a reliable source even for the Chantry's own mythology, let alone any actual history. Even if it meticulously (and truthfully) recorded every single detail of its history, there are some things it claims to know that it in fact does not (barring the possibility of future dramatic reveals). IE, the origin of the Darkspawn.

A Chantry omission does not compromise the integrity of the Chant. It compromises an interpretation of it. And the Chanty seems dead on about the origin of the darkspawn after Legacy. Even Anders wonders what other knowledge the Chantry has that's he's written off as propaganda.

Agreed.

The Book of Shartan, for all we know, could be similar to the Christian Gospels. The books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all tell a fairly similar story about the three years of the ministry of Jesus, just from slightly different perspectives. But the book of 1st and 2nd Kings is an accounting of history that is not covered anywhere else. The Book of Shartan could have just been a book discussing Shartan's perspective on Andraste and the events surrounding her crusade and nothing more, events that are covered in other parts of the Chant. It doesn't discount the fact that there could be much more fact-oriented sections of the Chant that may have been more or less useful to the correct accounting of time.

We don't know because Bioware has not told us. Assuming just because Bioware hasn't told us means that the Chant contains outright falsehoods is a little misleading.

Exactly.

As 4Ever said... if Anders is saying that maybe the Chant was more on the money that he thought, then there is bound to be some truth to it. That would be like Richard Dawkins saying "maybe this whole religion thing has got a point..."

So I'm not crazy or just out on a limb here? Good to know. Thanks Jimmy. 

[Senya]

Dark Korsar wrote...

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Chaos Lord Malek wrote...

Giving elves back their land would be terrible cliche(Not to mention its not THEIRS land and they lost it because they are ****holes). I would rather have them either exterminated or IF chantry is abolished have them put into slavery or something cruel.

Yeah, those evil elves. How dare they have the audacity to be invaded by humans and robbed of their homeland. Serves them right for minding their own business.

Read World of Thedas please - first the Elves just stood (ala Hobbit) and looked like Blight ravaged Orlei. And then THEY attacked the Orlei first. They even manage to push to the capital, but then got beaten down and exalt-marched into the City Elves.

full sourse please, and who author of this version(and i am sure that this is some chantry brother/sister)

I doubt it'll be a Dalish elf.

[lil yonce]

Plaintiff wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...
A Chantry omission does not compromise the integrity of the Chant.

It absolutely does, what a stupid thing to say.

What is your problem? If you bad, knock it off my shoulder.

[IanPolaris]

Palidane wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Palidane wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Assuming that's even the true story, and not the usual pack of Chantry lies.

Oh for God's sake. Do we have any record of the Chantry lying about anything?

Since they are unable or unwilling to produce supporting evidence for any of their claims, their entire doctrine should be considered false until further notice.

Dude, did you have your eyes closed when you got the Sacred Ashes of Andraste? Maybe some laser-guided amnesia when you talked to Corypheus? The Chantry is rolling in evidence for their claims. Unlike the Dalish, who havent offered a shred of proof for any of their beliefs. If not for the Eluvian, I would say there's no reason to think Arlathan ever existed!

I wouldn't say that.  In fact if you bring Oghren to this scene, he remarks that the entire place is simply riddled with lyrium and that funny things happens in such cases.  Now, I do think it's clear that Andraste really existed, and it's clear that the Guardian has some tie to her worship, and it's clear that the Urn has some powerful magical properties.  None of that is proof of everything else that is claimed about the Maker, and the guardian quite deliberately doesn't give any cautioning everyone that each pilgrim must find his or own own path to Andraste.  There is even some speculation (with at least some annecdotal evidence) that Andraste was a mage, and for all we know she could have been a "Flemeth-like" being.  I also note that the Chant of Light and the Ancient Elven mythologies don't actually contradict (or at least do so very little).  Both (at least large sections of both) could be true.

-Polaris

[Sir JK]

Plaintiff wrote...

Then you weren't paying attention. The Golden City was "already black" when Corypheus and his friends got there. Besides which, dwarven records of darkspawn sightings predate those of the Chantry.

I'm not saying the Chantry version is true or that Corypheus proves this to be the case... but while he does express confusion about the city being black he also says:

"The city! It was supposed to be golden. It was supposed to be ours" and he sounds mighty upsets about it, betrayed even.

Which suggests that Corypheus either thought it was golden or had reason to believe it would become golden and that this was desireable.

So while Corypheus puts the Chantry version into doubt... he also confirms it. Leaving us back at square one

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

We are told that the Chantry has modified the chant and they do it all the time.  Go back to DAO and speak with the two Chantry sisters.  In fact the very act of translation requires this.  It also allows new interpretations to be added and old ones to be quietly dropped.  It is one reason why IRL, Islam (both main branches) do not accept any translation of the Quaran as valid.[/quote]
Modifying the wording so modern people can understand the original intent is different from modifying the wording to fit your own intent as a church.[/quote]

The problem is both sisters admit that the Chantry does both things, and it's very easy to "translate in your favor".

[quote]

[quote]At this point, you are admitting the literal Chantry story is already in error (or at least more complex than it seems)[/quote]
No, I agree with the version in the Chanty of Light. I haven't seen anything to disprove it. On the contray I think reason and a study of the Chant justifies its version of events.
[/quote]

I haven't seen anything to think it's correct either. 

[quote]

[quote]Everything Anders says and does in Legacy needs to be ignored since it is completely contrary and out of character with everything else Anders says and believes the entire rest of the game and prior games.  Anders both in DA2 and DAA has openly stated that be fully believes the Chantry wnen it comes to this.  -Polaris[/quote]
I don't remember him saying anything about the origin of the darkspawn in DA:OA. And I don't remember him saying anything about it in the DA2 vanilla game. Only thing I remember him saying is that the Chantry shouldn't punish mages for fear of another Tevinter or because Andraste fought tyrannical mages. I don't recall him saying anything about the darkspawn origin but if you do you can refresh my memory.[/quote]
[/quote]

You need to pay closer attention.  When you give Anders the Tevinter Amulet Gift, he flat out says that Mages released the Darkspawn into the world.  He blames the Chantry for going overboard in punishing all mages for this.

-Polaris

[Hazegurl]

Dave of Canada wrote...

A bunch of rag-tag elves spread across the world can't begin to dream of getting a homeland.

Pretty much this.

[Asdrubael Vect]

The Hierophant wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Then you weren't paying attention. The Golden City was "already black" when Corypheus and his friends got there. Besides which, dwarven records of darkspawn sightings predate those of the Chantry.

I see people state it before, but is there a link that shows that the Dwarven records of darkspawn encounters predates The Tevinter's GC trip?

this Orlais Chantry propaganda about evil Tevinter magisters who trip into Fade and "Golden city" came after 2 or 3 blight, no dwarf and no elf never believe that Magisters were sourse of Blights and darkspawns

and we actually not know how Magisters actually came into Black City and where it is actually located, and we know that all darkspawns came from deep roads and not from the Tevinter temples of Old Gods where worshippers performed sacrifices to their gods

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 09 mai 2013 - 06:24 .

[IanPolaris]

Sir JK wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Elves tell a different story, and given that Orlais was openly expansionistic and Dale was highly isolationist, I find the Elven story much more plausible.

-Polaris

The problem with the elven story is that it mentions first missionaries and then templars, followed by the destruction of the dales.

Yet the missionaries had been active for 120 years when the war started and the templars had been around for 80. You can fake a number of things in history by clever writing, sure, but everyone would have noticed if the Orlesians would have fabricated their presence.

If that is the true cause of the war... it sure took the elves an awfully long time to realise they were about.

There's also the little complicated bit with the elven source... it's from after the fall of the Dales. It's not contemporary...

Sure, the Chantry tales probably contain a little polish, a little embellishment and a fair few adjustments.
But the Dalish one omitts telling us about the war... it only tells us the result...

Not to mention that the Dalish pride themselves in being the victims...

I would strongly suggest taking the Dalish account with as much salt as the Chantry/Orlesian one.

All of these things make me far more inclined to believe the Dalish version.  Why?  Because the Dalish version is complex and messy.  It doesn't try to abrogate all blame from the Dalish, nor does it point to a single Causis Belli to justify Dalish Actions.  Instead it reads like an historical account (admittedly with a bias) to explain what in fact happened.

By contrast the Chantry account DOES read like a whitewash.

Not only that, but we know that Orlais was aggressive and expansionistic while the Dales wanted only to be left alone and didn't want to deal with humans at all.  Given that, it is far likelier that the Dalish account is closer to correct since the Dales have no reason to want to go to war (and justify it) while Orlais has plenty of reasons to go to war (and justify it later).  I consider the Orlesian side to be inherently corrupt and untrustworthy on this issue.

-Polaris

[lil yonce]

IanPolaris wrote...

The problem is both sisters admit that the Chantry does both things, and it's very easy to "translate in your favor".

Where? Give me the dialogue.

I haven't seen anything to think it's correct either.

That's your perjorative. I'll stick to mine.

You need to pay closer attention.  When you give Anders the Tevinter Amulet Gift, he flat out says that Mages released the Darkspawn into the world.  He blames the Chantry for going overboard in punishing all mages for this.
-Polaris

Where? Give me the dialogue. I just watched two videos on youtube and didn't hear a thing about it.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 09 mai 2013 - 06:24 .

[Plaintiff]

Palidane wrote...
Dude, did you have your eyes closed when you got the Sacred Ashes of Andraste? Maybe some laser-guided amnesia when you talked to Corypheus? The Chantry is rolling in evidence for their claims.

False. The Chantry possesses neither the Ashes of Andraste nor Corypheus, and even if they did, neither is conclusive proof of anything.

DA:O provides an alternate, equally valid explanation for the magical nature of the Mountain Temple and the healing properties of the ashes (which may not even be Andraste's). The mountain is chock-full of lyrium.

Corypheus proves only that one Magister ventured into a city that may or may not have been golden, and became tainted as a result. There is no proof that he is one of the "first" darkspawn, and in fact there are dwarven records of darkspawn sightings that predate Chantry record.

Unlike the Dalish, who havent offered a shred of proof for any of their beliefs. If not for the Eluvian, I would say there's no reason to think Arlathan ever existed!

There is no reason to think Arlathan ever existed. The existence of Eluvians is only evidence for the existence of Eluvians.

The thing is, Dragon Age is not a game about archeologists. Just because you haven't stumbled over a codex entry with "sufficient evidence" doesn't mean it doesn exist.

No, but claiming it does exist is a pretty stupid thing to do. You can't prove that I'm not keeping a pygmy elephant in my garage, but it's not very likely, is it?

Whether or not the Chantry's claims turn out to be "true" is irrelevent. Without evidence, it has no business making them in the first place.

If you think that the universe is defined by what the Protagonist hears, then there's no reason to ever believe anything anybody says.

That's what you think my argument is? Jesus Christ.

The universe is not defined by what the protagonist hears. The protagonist hears many things. Most of them are contradictory, virtually all of them are unproven.

You know what does define the universe? Evidence.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 09 mai 2013 - 06:30 .

[IanPolaris]

Youth4Ever wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The problem is both sisters admit that the Chantry does both things, and it's very easy to "translate in your favor".

Where? Give me the dialogue.

The two sisters in Denerim give you to low down and tell you that meanings shift in time.  They also explain that books are added, dropped, and modified all the time.

I haven't seen anything to think it's correct either.

That's your perjorative. I'll stick to mine.

We have nothing else to say then.

You need to pay closer attention.  When you give Anders the Tevinter Amulet Gift, he flat out says that Mages released the Darkspawn into the world.  He blames the Chantry for going overboard in punishing all mages for this.
-Polaris

Where? Give me the dialogue. I just watched two videos on youtube and didn't hear a thing about it.

If you say "It's Propaganda" (diplomatic choice) regarding the Chantry's reaction to Tevinter, Anders will say that the Magisters did create the Darkspawn.  Not only that but in DAA, when you (Warden) talk with Anders looking at the Statue of Andraste in your Castle Courtyard, Anders will quite openly express the Chantry belief.

-Polaris

[Asdrubael Vect]

Plaintiff

"There is no reason to think Arlathan ever existed. The existence of Eluvians is only evidence for the existence of Eluvians."
but Tevinters claimed that they destroyed Arlathan and enslaved elven people

and dwafs know(and how they cant know about main city of Elvhenan Empire with whom they had a relationship before human arrival) about his existence too

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 09 mai 2013 - 06:38 .

[Plaintiff]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...
A Chantry omission does not compromise the integrity of the Chant.

It absolutely does, what a stupid thing to say.

What is your problem? If you bad, knock it off my shoulder.

I don't have a problem. When people say something stupid, I tell them so.

I am not attacking you personally. Saying "that was stupid" is not the same as saying "you are stupid".

[IanPolaris]

Youth4Ever wrote...

You need to pay closer attention.  When you give Anders the Tevinter Amulet Gift, he flat out says that Mages released the Darkspawn into the world.  He blames the Chantry for going overboard in punishing all mages for this.
-Polaris

Where? Give me the dialogue. I just watched two videos on youtube and didn't hear a thing about it.

Here is more evidence:

In the Legacy DLC Anders declares his disbelief in the Chantry lore regarding the Golden City and the darkspawn. Seeing the Seal of Dumat makes him change his mind on the issue. This characterization of Anders contradicts what he says about the Golden City in his Act 2 quest Tevinter Chantry Amulet and in the Origins expansion Awakening.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Anders

-Polaris

[The Hierophant]

Dark Korsar wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Then you weren't paying attention. The Golden City was "already black" when Corypheus and his friends got there. Besides which, dwarven records of darkspawn sightings predate those of the Chantry.

I see people state it before, but is there a link that shows that the Dwarven records of darkspawn encounters predates The Tevinter's GC trip?

this Orlais Chantry propaganda about evil Tevinter magisters who trip into Fade and "Golden city" came after 2 or 3 blight, no dwarf and no elf never believe that Magisters were sourse of Blights and darkspawns

and we actually not know how Magisters actually came into Black City and where it is actually located, and we know that all darkspawns came from deep roads and not from the Tevinter temples of Old Gods where worshippers performed sacrifices to their gods

Wouldn't the dwarves be ignorant of the Darkspawn's origins as it started in the Fade? Plus they remained ignorant of the Architect's existence a millenia later. Corypheus' very existence, and the fact that the Old Gods were tainted after the magisters visited the Golden City also contradicts your points.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 09 mai 2013 - 06:39 .

[Plaintiff]

Dark Korsar wrote...

Plaintiff

"There is no reason to think Arlathan ever existed. The existence of Eluvians is only evidence for the existence of Eluvians."
but Tevinters claimed that they destroyed Arlathan and dwafs know(and how they cant know about main city of Elvhenan Empire) about his existence

Well every group in Thedas makes a lot of claims. So far, there is virtually no evidence to prove any of them.

[Hazegurl]

LobselVith8 wrote...

As opposed to Hawke's goal to become rich so he can have a fancy mansion, wear silk robes, and become a noble, even though it requires him to get other people to risk their lives against darkspawn, the taint, and monsters? I think trying to stop the downfall of the People and improve the lives of the elves is a more worthy goal, and Hawke's condemnation of Merrill in Rivalry was offensive and absurd when he asks people to risk their lives for far, far less.

Wrong. Varric went to Hawke to propose the offer after Hawke was already willing to go with his brother and risk his own life. If anything, you could very well say that it is Varric asking Hawke to risk his life and the lives of anyone else who comes along. Also, if no one wants to go with Hawke they have the choice to back out. No one does, at least not the group I usually bring along. 

Fenris agrees to help as payment
Carver wants to come along
Varric is sponsoring the trip.
The only person I would force to come is Anders and leave either Fenris or Carver at home.

Everyone disagrees with Merrill's quest and make it known to her that they want no part in it. Rival Hawke is not being offensive to Merrill at all. As a matter of fact Merrill is far more offensive toward him because she is obsessed and narrow minded in her goal. She also doesn't seem so broken up about losing the opportunity to repair the Eluvian, which makes me think that recovering Elvish history wasn't really that important to her anyway.