283 réponses à ce sujet

[lil yonce]

IanPolaris wrote...

The two sisters in Denerim give you to low down and tell you that meanings shift in time.  They also explain that books are added, dropped, and modified all the time.

Can you tell me exactly what they said, like word-for-word or do you have a video? Your interpretation of what they said or meant could be biased and off the mark.

If you say "It's Propaganda" (diplomatic choice) regarding the Chantry's reaction to Tevinter, Anders will say that the Magisters did create the Darkspawn.  Not only that but in DAA, when you (Warden) talk with Anders looking at the Statue of Andraste in your Castle Courtyard, Anders will quite openly express the Chantry belief.-Polaris

I found a video now that selected that option: 

And I'm under the impression that he was being sarcastic and taking a shot at the Circle's rationale for keeping mages, not professing his belief in the the Chantry origin of the darkspawn.

And when you click on the statue of Andraste in Awakening he doesn't say anything about the Chantry darkspawn origin being a truth he believes in. He basically says that no matter what the Tevinter mages did and who Andraste fought it doesn't justify the current Circles of Magi.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 09 mai 2013 - 06:59 .

[Sir JK]

IanPolaris wrote...

All of these things make me far more inclined to believe the Dalish version.  Why?  Because the Dalish version is complex and messy.  It doesn't try to abrogate all blame from the Dalish, nor does it point to a single Causis Belli to justify Dalish Actions.  Instead it reads like an historical account (admittedly with a bias) to explain what in fact happened.

See... that's my issue with it. Yes, it's messy. Yes, it's complex. But it skips over a very long period. And there's no details. No elven heroes gloriously defeating chevaliers. No items of mystic value. No songs to lament the loss of Halamshiral. No nobles, kings or victims. Just "we lost it because humans are meanies". There's no context.

And another thing that irks me is how the Dalish never seem to be able to mention he Dales without hinting they later lost it.

By contrast the Chantry account DOES read like a whitewash.

Unlike the very reliable Dalish version that essentially tells the listener to feel sorry for the elves who were so unjustly invaded

Have it ever occured to you that they both might be whitewashing?

Not only that, but we know that Orlais was aggressive and expansionistic while the Dales wanted only to be left alone and didn't want to deal with humans at all.  Given that, it is far likelier that the Dalish account is closer to correct since the Dales have no reason to want to go to war (and justify it) while Orlais has plenty of reasons to go to war (and justify it later).  I consider the Orlesian side to be inherently corrupt and untrustworthy on this issue.

-Polaris

You do realise Orlais was recovering at the time from being at the forefront of the blight that had ended 10 years prior and had recently lost half their territory; the Anderfels? Kordilius I was half a century dead? And the entire age is named after how Orlais shifted to culture after a century of war? And according to it's own account did spectacularily poorly in the war?

[Asdrubael Vect]

Plaintiff wrote...

Dark Korsar wrote...

Plaintiff

"There is no reason to think Arlathan ever existed. The existence of Eluvians is only evidence for the existence of Eluvians."
but Tevinters claimed that they destroyed Arlathan and dwafs know(and how they cant know about main city of Elvhenan Empire) about his existence

Well every group in Thedas makes a lot of claims. So far, there is virtually no evidence to prove any of them.

have you ever be in Arlahan forest to claim that?
you know what Orlais done with Dales and their maincity 900 years ago...

and now imagine what Ancient Tevinters done with Arlatan 2000 years ago with their armys, dragons, powerfull blood magic and army of demons(even Anders with just one potion wipe out the whole Kirkwall Chantry for miles) and they looted it for artifacts, knowledge and other stuffs

this is like the destruction of Carthage by Roman empire but with magic, dragons and demons

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 09 mai 2013 - 07:25 .

[Palidane]

Plaintiff wrote...
False. The Chantry possesses neither the Ashes of Andraste nor Corypheus, and even if they did, neither is conclusive proof of anything. 

DA:O provides an alternate, equally valid explanation for the magical nature of the Mountain Temple and the healing properties of the ashes (which may not even be Andraste's). The mountain is chock-full of lyrium.

Corypheus proves only that one Magister ventured into a city that may or may not have been golden, and became tainted as a result. There is no proof that he is one of the "first" darkspawn, and in fact there are dwarven records of darkspawn sightings that predate Chantry record.

You know what Lyrium does? It kills people. Dwarves have evolved a resistance to it, but it is still hyper-lethal and only the best of the miner caste can extract it safely. If you process it into liquid, mages can drink it and "recharge their batteries". You know what lyrium doesn't do? Summon ghosts from the past with memories from their previous lives, some with thoughts that would be impossible to know at the time (Hessarian's regret a few months after he killed her). It also doesn't cause localized hallucinations of a long lost loved one, with their exact personality. And funny thing, the magical equivalent of plutonium does not randomly give one pile of ashes super healing abilites, far beyond anything we've ever seen. Lyrium does not explain the things we saw in the Gauntlet.

And I don't know about your playthrough, but the Chantry definitely possess the Ashes in mine. It is a pilgrimage site for Andrastians all over Thedas.

And while sure, the Gauntlet and Corypheus are not concrete, unargueable proof, there the next best thing. You may be able to dismiss individual pieces of evidence, but not all of them added up. How many ancient tombs and spirits and sentient darkspawn supporting the Chant is it going to take to convince you? By and large, the Chant of Light checks out.

[Asdrubael Vect]

[quote]simfamSP wrote...


[quote]
One Dalish clan is led by a man who started a werewolf curse to punish humans that backfired on his clan. Who would've thunk that having werewolves around could be a bad thing?
[/quote]

My question is, why did the werewolves take so long to attack? But that's for another thread methinks, I don't want to derail this one. I do that enough these days.

[/quote][/quote]

because the is no Forest Spirit(who give mind to werewolfs and force them attack elves to lure Zatrian to heal curse before she was fully weaken and die in Dire Wolf) in Dire Wolf before(~400 years of curse what Zatrian created) and werewolf was mindless beast who hunt only humans

mindless werewolf would never attack elves(they maybe can, only if elves would specially hunt and attack werewolfs) and i think they have no interest in dwarven peoples(they not have any magic abilitys and connection with fade so i am sure that curse not work for them so if they was attacked by werewolf for some reasons, they just die and be eaten)

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 09 mai 2013 - 07:20 .

[Plaintiff]

Palidane wrote...
You know what Lyrium does? It kills people.

Or, you know, gives them magic powers. See every single Templar ever, not to mention Meredith.

You know what lyrium doesn't do? Summon ghosts from the past with memories from their previous lives, some with thoughts that would be impossible to know at the time (Hessarian's regret a few months after he killed her). It also doesn't cause localized hallucinations of a long lost loved one, with their exact personality. And funny thing, the magical equivalent of plutonium does not randomly give one pile of ashes super healing abilites, far beyond anything we've ever seen. Lyrium does not explain the things we saw in the Gauntlet.

Prove that it doesn't! Hurr dur dur dur.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 09 mai 2013 - 07:27 .

[Asdrubael Vect]

Palidane
"You know what Lyrium does? It kills people. Dwarves have evolved a resistance to it, but it is still hyper-lethal and only the best of the miner caste can extract it safely. If you process it into liquid, mages can drink it and "recharge their batteries""

i see only one person who die(actually we not know, maybe she became some type of Golem) because of Lyrium, its Meredit which is recharged herself

no one mage die because of Lyrium, ancient tevinters magisters use a lot of it and all what they have it some changes in body(but they can do this with blood magic) but they have no problem with that and be wery powerfull and live long

and as we see Fenris not die(his memory was specially errrased by Danarius) because a lot of Lyrium in his body

and even Templars die after month without using Lirium

so all this stuff about lyrium kill peoples is Chantry bull**** propoganda for young mages to not stealing Сhantry Circle Lyrium(what Chantry buy from Carta criminals) to fight with Templars

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 09 mai 2013 - 07:42 .

[Palidane]

And now I'm just getting trolled. Call me when you want to have an actual argument.

Modifié par Palidane, 09 mai 2013 - 07:41 .

[Plaintiff]

Palidane wrote...

And now I'm just getting trolled. Call me when you want to have an actual argument.

It's not trolling to turn your poor arguments against you.

We don't know what Lyrium can or can't do, just like we don't know whose mythology is the most accurate. You gave me crap for being skeptical of theories for which there was no evidence, only to turn around and do the exact same to hypotheses that you personally don't approve of.

I was just pointing out your hypocrisy.

[Asdrubael Vect]

Palidane wrote...

And now I'm just getting trolled. Call me when you want to have an actual argument.

"Summon ghosts from the past with memories from their previous lives, some with thoughts that would be impossible to know at the time (Hessarian's regret a few months after he killed her)"

"It also doesn't cause localized hallucinations of a long lost loved one, with their exact personality"

1)this place have a lot of lyrium and have close connection with Fade and a lot of demons(and demons can read you past and force you to see what they or you wanted)

2)you see some Hessarian statues(we even have one in Andraste Tomb) and images(but his images are different as what we can see),

but you never personaly see or heard Hessarian himself as others peoples(who must speak on Ancient Tevinter language) in Andraste Tomb(and actually with lyrium and blood magic you can bound ghosts, spirits and demons to places(especially in such as Andraste Tomb with close connection with Fade) and force them to do and say what you wanted)

 "And funny thing, the magical equivalent of plutonium does not randomly give one pile of ashes super healing abilites, far beyond anything we've ever seen."
Life stones or elfroots in Ashes of unknown race(she even maybe elf or half elf) mage(blood mage)  who were impregnated by lyrium for more than 900 years can do much more than just heal blood magic poisons and injuries...with blood of dragon this ashes would be only more powerfull and maybe can really resurrect dead peoples

"Lyrium does not explain the things we saw in the Gauntlet." a lot of Lyrium with some good blood magic rituals and demons does

Modifié par Dark Korsar, 09 mai 2013 - 08:33 .

[The Elder King]

I'd say the darkspawn "birth" is still cloud in mystery. Coripheus's words, as it's shown in this thread, could be interpretated in different ways. The Chantry version could be either true or false. There's not a definitive evidence toward either statements.
As for the Dales/Orlais situation, I'll believe that they were both at faults unless we'll found a way to know surely what happened.
The result was determinated by the superiority of the human forces (either by military advantages or numbers, or mages) on the elves forces. If the elves would've been stronger of the humans, the results wouldn't have been much different that the current one (with the two races in a reversed position).

[The Hierophant]

I've seen it stated multiple times before, but can anyone in the know direct me to the lore that indicates that the Dwarves had sighted the Darkspawn before the GC tainted Corypheus?

[Senya]

I think I shoiuld point out it's stated that the Dwarves themselves state that raw lyrium is dangerous. They only work with processed lyrium.

Modifié par almostinsane99, 09 mai 2013 - 08:36 .

[BlueMagitek]

WittingEight65 wrote...

I would like the chance to eradicate the elves :X

Well, as far as main games go, you could have eliminated two Dalish clans already, so it seems to be a trend.  I doubt that we'll see it stop.

[LobselVith8]

IanPolaris wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

You need to pay closer attention.  When you give Anders the Tevinter Amulet Gift, he flat out says that Mages released the Darkspawn into the world.  He blames the Chantry for going overboard in punishing all mages for this.

-Polaris

Where? Give me the dialogue. I just watched two videos on youtube and didn't hear a thing about it.

If you say "It's Propaganda" (diplomatic choice) regarding the Chantry's reaction to Tevinter, Anders will say that the Magisters did create the Darkspawn.  Not only that but in DAA, when you (Warden) talk with Anders looking at the Statue of Andraste in your Castle Courtyard, Anders will quite openly express the Chantry belief.

-Polaris

This is noted every time someone brings up Anders' dialogue from Legacy. It doesn't match with his affirmation in the Andrastiah faith from Awakening or Dragon Age II. Many of Anders' arguments with Merrill are based on the fact that he is religiously Andrastian, which is why he berates Merrill for thinking that spirits are simply spirits, rather than Spirits and Demons who are the First Children of the Maker, along with his claim that Demons can be categorized into different sins.

The only thing Anders disagrees with in the expansion or the sequel is what the Andrastian Chantry does to the mages, and that's pretty much it. I don't even see the point of Anders' dialogue at the end of Legacy when the corrupted Magister Corypheus contradicts the Chantry fable of the Golden City.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Are you surprised the elves who were enslaved by humans for centuries and had a neighbor who was invading every other neighbor to create an empire that followed a specific religion (which is why Drakon launched a series of Exalted Marches against the other city-states in order to create the Orleian Empire) wasn't welcoming the human conquerors with open arms?

No, I'm not surprised. But what does this have to do with what I said? 

You realize human societies practice segregation, with few exceptions. Elves are basically segregated in Alienages with little to no rights (given how they can be purged right down to their children, as we saw with the massacre at the orphanage in Denerim), while dwarves might have their own section to live in (like the dwarves in Kirkwall). The difference with the elves of the Dales was that they were trying to restore their culture, their religion, and their immortality, and they kept out an empire of invaders in the process.

What does this have to do with what I said?

There's a difference between supporting a City Elf rebellion against the Orlesians and freeing them from the Alienages, and agreeing with, believing in, or colloborating with the Dalish. The only reference I made was to the present. The elves getting the Dales back does not mean that the Dalish get the Dales back.

As opposed to Hawke's goal to become rich so he can have a fancy mansion, wear silk robes, and become a noble, even though it requires him to get other people to risk their lives against darkspawn, the taint, and monsters? I think trying to stop the downfall of the People and improve the lives of the elves is a more worthy goal, and Hawke's condemnation of Merrill in Rivalry was offensive and absurd when he asks people to risk their lives for far, far less.

I think you don't understand what makes thinks either offensive or absurd. First of all, Hawke's goal in either case with the expedition is to protect his family. A non-mage Hawke is doing it to acquire the means to protect Bethany. Mage Hawke is doing it to remove himself (or herself) from Kirkwall as the templars crack down on the mage presence. 

In either case, the goal is protecting his family from the templars, a goal you should relate with. But, of course, you play fast and lose with facts when it comes to supporting whatever cause you're going for.

Not to mention that, again, there's no actual evidence that Merrill is really doing anything to help the elves, or even help the Dalish. The fact that she's attempting to rebuild the Eluvian doesn't really tell us anything about what she's actually going to acomplish even if she succeeds - all we know is that it's a portal "beyond the Fade" beyond being used as some kind of communication device. 

Giving the Dalish the equivalent of video conferencing (if she can make a second Eluvian) won't do anything to improve the lot of the elves in the Alienages, and it certainly won't help the Dalish get any closer to acquiring a homeland. Other than recovering the knowledge to actually build the Eluvians (which would be recovered by necessary implication from the fact that Merrill succeeds), Merrill' s plan doesn't even have the prospect of increasing the knowledge of Dalish history. 

So Merrill isn't doing anything to improve the lives of the Dalish - and more importantly - in-game she's not even saying she's trying to do that. Her goal is explicit - recover the history of her people. That's what she sees as the role of a Keeper and what she thinks Marethari in being too afraid of the Eluvian has failed to do. But she doesn't pretend that her role is that important, though she does believe that recovering history is very important. 

I was thinking more along the lines of someone like Feynriel, who has a Dalish mother and a human father, but follows the Creators instead of the Maker. And I have no interest in a devout Andrastian protagonist.

I know what you're thinking of. I'm just telling you that there's no reason why an Elven-protagonist or a half-elven protagonist should mean the opportunity that you want in-game. 

Modifié par In Exile, 09 mai 2013 - 11:10 .

[Hurbster]

How much I care about the elves depends how much they whine about it.

[LobselVith8]

Hazegurl wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

As opposed to Hawke's goal to become rich so he can have a fancy mansion, wear silk robes, and become a noble, even though it requires him to get other people to risk their lives against darkspawn, the taint, and monsters? I think trying to stop the downfall of the People and improve the lives of the elves is a more worthy goal, and Hawke's condemnation of Merrill in Rivalry was offensive and absurd when he asks people to risk their lives for far, far less. 

Wrong. Varric went to Hawke to propose the offer after Hawke was already willing to go with his brother and risk his own life. If anything, you could very well say that it is Varric asking Hawke to risk his life and the lives of anyone else who comes along. Also, if no one wants to go with Hawke they have the choice to back out. No one does, at least not the group I usually bring along.

Any companion (with the exception of Varric, who is mandatory at this point in the storyline) who accompanies Hawke into the Deep Roads is venturing there at the protagonist's behest, to risk their life so Hawke can become wealthy and purchase a mansion.

Hazegurl wrote...

Fenris agrees to help as payment
Carver wants to come along
Varric is sponsoring the trip.
The only person I would force to come is Anders and leave either Fenris or Carver at home.

With the exception of Varric, the others are risking their lives in the Deep Roads because Hawke brings them along - and Hawke's goal is to gain riches from the expedition. Nothing you're saying is disputing what I said previously.

Hazegurl wrote...

Everyone disagrees with Merrill's quest and make it known to her that they want no part in it.

Hawke can support Merrill, instead of bullying her and intimidating her in Rivalry. As for the others, they disagree with a course of action they are completely ignorant about. Merrill might have culture shock about human society, but none of them know anything about the plight of the People, the lore of the Eluvian, or the potential that this ancient technology has to revitalize the Dalish from their decline.

Hazegurl wrote...

Rival Hawke is not being offensive to Merrill at all.

Yes, Rivalry Hawke is. Hawke also makes her a weaker person. You see the difference when Rivalry Merrill is meek about Anders' status as an abomination, to the point of scaring her, while Friendship Merrill admonishes Anders for thinking that there could be a good spirit when she addresses that all spirits are dangerous.

Hazegurl wrote...

As a matter of fact Merrill is far more offensive toward him because she is obsessed and narrow minded in her goal.

No, Merrill isn't. Hawke is being offensive by thinking that he has any right to let his uninformed opinion supercede her informed actions. Merrill is a Dalish elf who knows full well how bad things are for her people, she has read the lore about the Eluvian and extrapolated information from the shard, and she is pursuing a course of action to help elves across Thedas. Merrill is taking action from a place of knowledge, while Hawke knows nothing about the Dalish or their culture, he is ignorant about the Eluvian and its potential, and he doesn't understand what it's like to be Dalish.

Hazegurl wrote...

She also doesn't seem so broken up about losing the opportunity to repair the Eluvian, which makes me think that recovering Elvish history wasn't really that important to her anyway. 

Merrill wouldn't have focused so much attention on the Eluvian if it wasn't important, and she was a little preoccupied over losing Marethari after the Keeper became an abomination and tried to kill her.

[Lazy Jer]

LobselVith8 wrote...

No, Merrill isn't. Hawke is being offensive by thinking that he has any right to let his uninformed opinion supercede her informed actions. Merrill is a Dalish elf who knows full well how bad things are for her people, she has read the lore about the Eluvian and extrapolated information from the shard, and she is pursuing a course of action to help elves across Thedas. Merrill is taking action from a place of knowledge, while Hawke knows nothing about the Dalish or their culture, he is ignorant about the Eluvian and its potential, and he doesn't understand what it's like to be Dalish.

To be fair, Hawke is also told in no uncertain terms by Marethari that that mirror should absolutely, positively under no circumstances, be repaired.  So it's not like he's just saying "Hey you know what, I feel like being an immense jerkwad today, so 'no'." If he decides to keep the tool from Merrill. 

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

She also doesn't seem so broken up about losing the opportunity to repair the Eluvian, which makes me think that recovering Elvish history wasn't really that important to her anyway. 

Merrill wouldn't have focused so much attention on the Eluvian if it wasn't important, and she was a little preoccupied over losing Marethari after the Keeper became an abomination and tried to kill her.

On this we agree.  Merrill just lost a person who is well respected in her Dalish Community and someone who she was basically apprenticed to.  Add to this person, let's face it, passive-aggressively blamed Merrill for her death and you're going to loose a bit of focus on repairing a mirror.

Modifié par Lazy Jer, 09 mai 2013 - 11:59 .

[LobselVith8]

Lazy Jer wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

No, Merrill isn't. Hawke is being offensive by thinking that he has any right to let his uninformed opinion supercede her informed actions. Merrill is a Dalish elf who knows full well how bad things are for her people, she has read the lore about the Eluvian and extrapolated information from the shard, and she is pursuing a course of action to help elves across Thedas. Merrill is taking action from a place of knowledge, while Hawke knows nothing about the Dalish or their culture, he is ignorant about the Eluvian and its potential, and he doesn't understand what it's like to be Dalish.

To be fair, Hawke is also told in no uncertain terms by Marethari that that mirror should absolutely, positively under no circumstances, be repaired.  So it's not like he's just saying "Hey you know what, I feel like being an immense jerkwad today, so 'no'." If he decides to keep the tool from Merrill.

Merrill gathered and studied lore on the Eluvian, and extrapolated information from the shard. Marethari jumps from one baseless conclusion to the next. I don't see any reason to trust Marethari's uninformed guesses over Merrill's educated opinion on the matter.

Furthermore, it's also against the rules of the Dalish, because Merrill was the one who invoked vir sulevanan; not Hawke.

Lazy Jer wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill wouldn't have focused so much attention on the Eluvian if it wasn't important, and she was a little preoccupied over losing Marethari after the Keeper became an abomination and tried to kill her. 

On this we agree.  Merrill just lost a person who is well respected in her Dalish Community and someone who she was basically apprenticed to.  Add to this person, let's face it, passive-aggressively blamed Merrill for her death and you're going to loose a bit of focus on repairing a mirror. 

Marethari was also the closest thing Merrill had to a mother growing up.

[Lazy Jer]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill gathered and studied lore on the Eluvian, and extrapolated information from the shard. Marethari jumps from one baseless conclusion to the next. I don't see any reason to trust Marethari's uninformed guesses over Merrill's educated opinion on the matter.

Furthermore, it's also against the rules of the Dalish, because Merrill was the one who invoked vir sulevanan; not Hawke.

None of which Hawke has cause to know.  He's not aware of whether Marethari's options are base or not (not arguing that statement either way), he doesn't really know how much research Merrill's actually done, and he doesn't know anything about the Daleish rituals.  He does know that Marethari is an old elf and the Keeper of the clan.  He knows that no one in the clan wants her to crazy-glue this thing back together.  Marethari was being cryptic, but that doesn't mean that her warning shouldn't be heeded.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Marethari was also the closest thing Merrill had to a mother growing up.

...and Merrill herself had to take an active part in killing her.

[Lazy Jer]

In re the original post, it'd be nice to see some sort of permanent land develop for the elves as long as it made some sort of sense in story. A smallish wilderness area that barely qualifies as a kingdom would make some sense in-game for the Daleish. A large-scale invasion of their old lands, taking everything back would not.

...and let's not pretend that the blight or kicking out a few missionaries had anything to do with any Exalted March on the Dales. There are reasons to go to war and there are excuses. Excuse examples: "They didn't help us during the blight", "they kicked out our missionaries." or "Red Crossing got sacked, so let's sack an entire kingdom." Examples of actual reasons "Want more land.", "Want more resources."

[Silfren]

almostinsane99 wrote...

If they include it, then it should be done well. No black and white, the elves get the Dales back without any suffering or the Dalish and City Elves easily setting aside their differences in culture, atittude, heritage, etc.

I would love to see a game featuring this, actually.  The Dalish elves and their alienage counterparts are different enough in their culture that they would have to address this--right down to the fear and distrust many alienage elves have for the Dalish, and many of the latter's outright scorn of their kindred, and it would be a very compelling story if Bioware did it any justice. 

[LobselVith8]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Are you surprised the elves who were enslaved by humans for centuries and had a neighbor who was invading every other neighbor to create an empire that followed a specific religion (which is why Drakon launched a series of Exalted Marches against the other city-states in order to create the Orleian Empire) wasn't welcoming the human conquerors with open arms? [/quote]

No, I'm not surprised. But what does this have to do with what I said? [/quote]

Your line about the Dalish being "segregated" and "racially pure", when their kingdom kept out an empire of conquerors who were trying to create a society under one single religion, and the remanants of that society are currently nomadic because the templars hunt them down and Andrastians are often intolerant towards them as elves and heathens.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You realize human societies practice segregation, with few exceptions. Elves are basically segregated in Alienages with little to no rights (given how they can be purged right down to their children, as we saw with the massacre at the orphanage in Denerim), while dwarves might have their own section to live in (like the dwarves in Kirkwall). The difference with the elves of the Dales was that they were trying to restore their culture, their religion, and their immortality, and they kept out an empire of invaders in the process. [/quote]

What does this have to do with what I said?

There's a difference between supporting a City Elf rebellion against the Orlesians and freeing them from the Alienages, and agreeing with, believing in, or colloborating with the Dalish. The only reference I made was to the present. The elves getting the Dales back does not mean that the Dalish get the Dales back. [/quote]

Again, it pertained to your line about the Dalish being "segregated" and "racially pure". I don't think having a kingdom where the elves won't be viewed as less than people, and where they can worship their religion freely (since it was outlawed by the Andrastian Chantry) is a bad thing. The Dalish have had very bad experiences with humanity, from the humans of Tevinter who enslaved them, to the humans of the Andrastian kingdoms who sacked their homeland.

However, we also have examples where the Dalish adopted humans, from the historical Aveline to Feynriel (who is technically human, since the children of humans and elves are human).

Furthermore, it's possible the elves living in the occupied kingdom of the Dales might have held onto the traditions of their ancestors, and the Dalish are meeting in the Dales now. Regardless, the Dalish are said to be gathering in Halamshiral, for the Arlathvhen.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

As opposed to Hawke's goal to become rich so he can have a fancy mansion, wear silk robes, and become a noble, even though it requires him to get other people to risk their lives against darkspawn, the taint, and monsters? I think trying to stop the downfall of the People and improve the lives of the elves is a more worthy goal, and Hawke's condemnation of Merrill in Rivalry was offensive and absurd when he asks people to risk their lives for far, far less. [/quote]

I think you don't understand what makes thinks either offensive or absurd. First of all, Hawke's goal in either case with the expedition is to protect his family. A non-mage Hawke is doing it to acquire the means to protect Bethany. Mage Hawke is doing it to remove himself (or herself) from Kirkwall as the templars crack down on the mage presence. 

In either case, the goal is protecting his family from the templars, a goal you should relate with. But, of course, you play fast and lose with facts when it comes to supporting whatever cause you're going for. [/quote]

I recall Hawke standing idly by while two templars took Bethany away to the Circle of Kirkwall, where he knew mages were being made tranquil illegally. Or not bothering to warn his mother that there's a serial killer on the loose who targets women. The argument that Hawke is protecting his family doesn't carry much weight with me when he does nothing of the kind.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

Not to mention that, again, there's no actual evidence that Merrill is really doing anything to help the elves, or even help the Dalish. The fact that she's attempting to rebuild the Eluvian doesn't really tell us anything about what she's actually going to acomplish even if she succeeds - all we know is that it's a portal "beyond the Fade" beyond being used as some kind of communication device. [/quote]

Communication over fast distances has fundamentally altered our society, which is one of the facets of the Eluvians. Why do you think that wouldn't be true for the Dalish? Or travelling to the place Morrigan wanted to go to because it would enpower her.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

Giving the Dalish the equivalent of video conferencing (if she can make a second Eluvian) won't do anything to improve the lot of the elves in the Alienages, and it certainly won't help the Dalish get any closer to acquiring a homeland. Other than recovering the knowledge to actually build the Eluvians (which would be recovered by necessary implication from the fact that Merrill succeeds), Merrill' s plan doesn't even have the prospect of increasing the knowledge of Dalish history. [/quote]

Given that Merrill was the one who studied the lore on the Eluvian, she seemed to think it could benefit the People.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

So Merrill isn't doing anything to improve the lives of the Dalish - and more importantly - in-game she's not even saying she's trying to do that. Her goal is explicit - recover the history of her people. That's what she sees as the role of a Keeper and what she thinks Marethari in being too afraid of the Eluvian has failed to do. But she doesn't pretend that her role is that important, though she does believe that recovering history is very important. [/quote]

Merrill explicitly says that she was trying to help her people, and she's willing to risk her life if the outcome can benefit the Dalish.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I was thinking more along the lines of someone like Feynriel, who has a Dalish mother and a human father, but follows the Creators instead of the Maker. And I have no interest in a devout Andrastian protagonist. [/quote]

I know what you're thinking of. I'm just telling you that there's no reason why an Elven-protagonist or a half-elven protagonist should mean the opportunity that you want in-game. [/quote]

I wasn't aware I needed to address every single possibility every time I address something that interests me.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 10 mai 2013 - 02:04 .