283 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Why are you insulting me? It is of course possible she could become an abomination because she's dealing with a Pride demon and everything about her is playing right into its wheelhouse.

Possibility and probability are two different things.

Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No.

Mr.House wrote...
No it's not. Then again, you're just too bias to see it's not horrible.

I've seen it and it strikes me as being manipulative and consisting of emotional abuse. Saying you have someone's interests at heart doesn't mean you really do, especially if your actions actually make them feel ****tier about themselves.

Hell, even her Rivalry bonus says that the fact that no one supports her has made her depend solely on herself.

That's not healthy.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 mai 2013 - 05:42 .

[Xilizhra]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Why are you insulting me? It is of course possible she could become an abomination because she's dealing with a Pride demon and everything about her is playing right into its wheelhouse.

Yes, it's locked inside an idol. It's perfectly safe unless some overly prideful idiot of a keeper decides she actually wants to be an abomination to do unclear things to Merrill.

[Hazegurl]

LobselVith8 wrote...
This is factually inaccurate. Hawke can support Merrill, while everyone else is ignorant about what Merrill is doing.

I already said I will rephrase it to say that the PC can support her, that is pretty much it. Marethari does not support her, the clan does not support her, Anders and Fenris outright does not support what she is doing, and none of the other companions co sign demons and blood magic. When you have a good 20+ people all thinking that what you're doing is a bad idea...it's probably a bad idea.  Nothing you've mentioned takes away from the fact that no one but Hawke supports her and even that is optional.

Wrong. Merrill isn't risking anyone else's life in her endeavor, while Hawke certainly is with his goal to become wealthy.

 Doesn't she tell Hawke to come along out of fear that she will be possessed? Hm, sounds very much like placing Hawke and his friend's lives in danger.

And no Hawke does not bully her, he simply disagrees with her actions. That is not bullying someone. You can be totally diplomatic while rivalling her.  You just have issues with the Rival path because Rival hawke opposes Merrill, it's obvious you don't play that path with her often and Marethari can give that tool to anyone she chooses to. 

Merrill is scared because Rivalry Hawke has weakened her confidence to such an extent.

Then that makes Merrill an extermely weak person period. You can rival Anders and he still does whatever he set out to do, You can Rival Fenris and he still stays true to himself. Everyone else is okay but according to you, Merrill becomes some sad sack of a woman because Hawke doesn't support her actions. Boohoo.  And like I said, someone as naive as her cannot out smart a demon. Especially since according to Gaider a person can be possessed and agree to what a demon wants and not even know it.

Merrill is trying to save her people, while Hawke is doing nothing for years at a time. Some people actually want to make a positive difference in the world. And irrevocably changing the lives of the People for the better is an altruistic goal.

Yes, Hawke sat on his butt for years, that's what DA2 was all about. Hawke just sitting around watching soaps all day.  Money just fell out of the sky for the Amell family, the Arishok killed himself, and Meredith just died for no reason.  I know you love Merrill but you sound silly trying to diminish Hawke to lift her up. 

No Merrill does not think the demon was released, she was fearful of being possessed and that is beside the point, She thinks it would have been okay to get posessed and die for a small piece of info yet fails to see that if she had gotten possessed and died her info would be worthless. Yeah, that's really using intellect.

Youth4Ever wrote...

So Merrill can't fall prey to a cunning and intelligent demon? To a demon that can twist words and veil
its intent? And willpower helps against resisting possession itself but it won't help you make a business deal that could just as easily lead to your demise.

Right, he should really listen to himself. He says that Merrill lacks confidence and becomes weak based on Hawke not supporting her, Anders makes her scared by telling her what could happen to her, and she is naive about human culture. BUT Merrill can thwart a demon's attempt at manipulation, master word games, and have the mental strength and fortitude to battle wits with a pride demon.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 10 mai 2013 - 05:59 .

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
No it's not. Then again, you're just too bias to see it's not horrible. 

I've seen it and it strikes me as being manipulative and consisting of emotional abuse. Saying you have someone's interests at heart doesn't mean you really do, especially if your actions actually make them feel ****tier about themselves.

Hell, even her Rivalry bonus says that the fact that no one supports her has made her depend solely on herself.

That's not healthy.

Good for you, it does not strike me at all, nor do others who enjoyed the rival path.

[TEWR]

Then that makes Merrill an extermely weak person period. You can rival Anders and he still does whatever he set out to do

When you rival him, Justice/Vengeance forcibly controls Anders to do what he wants half the time. The other half is Anders trying desperately to deny that he's become a monster by hoping he can keep it in check.

Hardly equivalent.

Merrill becomes some sad sack of a woman because Hawke doesn't support her actions.

Also hardly equivalent.

It's because no one supports her. With Anders and Fenris and the rest, people support their lifestyles and their choices. Fenris has the Templars, Anders the Mages, Aveline the Guard, Isabela has her friends and bar buddies, Varric has his friends, etc.

Hawke is, literally, the only person in the world that Merrill knows that can possibly support her. Remove that and no one is supporting her.

It's not the lack of Hawke's support that kills her confidence, it's the lack of support itself.

That doesn't make her weak. It makes her human, at least in the sense of the spirit and its trials and not in the sense of racial identities. To say that if you can't withstand a lack of support entirely then you're weak is not only disingenuous, but also downright malicious.

Seriously, I'd like to see how you fare when the world is deadset against you and believes you're a monster (or lame, or creepy, or whatever). You grow depressed and it leads to an unhealthy mindset. You start to lose your self-worth, your self-esteem sinks to the toilet, and so on.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 mai 2013 - 05:58 .

[Mr.House]

How does rivaling Merrill equal thinking she is a monster?

[lil yonce]

And I don't agree with it being "perfectly safe". I don't see anything as being perfectly safe when dealing with demons or blood magic or ancient magical artifacts. There is always a level of risk-- and this is a triple whammy-- and Merrill did not show me she could handle it or that her risk and sacrifice was even worth it.

You can agree with fixing the mirror. I'm not condemning your decision. You look at it differently from me. You're far more idealistic and willing to take more risks. I'm not going to insult you or question your intelligence for doing so, so why can't you respect the opposite opinion?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 10 mai 2013 - 06:05 .

[iOnlySignIn]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, it's locked inside an idol. It's perfectly safe unless some overly prideful idiot of a keeper decides she actually wants to be an abomination to do unclear things to Merrill.

Merrill wants to open the idol herself. That is why she asks Hawke to come along - to kill her if she becomes possessed. Maybe she will, maybe she won't, but that hardly makes Merrill smarter or humbler than Marethari. Both think that opening the idol and risking being possessed is something they should do.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 10 mai 2013 - 06:00 .

[Mr.House]

Merrill fell to a weak pride demon in the fade earlier in the game. The odds of her not falling to the Pride Demon who is alot stronger and has been using Merrill is so slim it's not worth even mentioning.

[TEWR]

Mr.House wrote...

How does rivaling Merrill equal thinking she is a monster?

I was referring more to how the Dalish view her thanks to Marethari's slanderous lies of how she'll "bring back the Taint", despite the fact that Merrill has not only cleansed it of its corruption but has gone over that fact with the Keeper. Like how Pol decided a crazed Varterral that had proven itself at killing three trained hunters was a safer thing to be near then Merrill, who hasn't harmed anyone in her life.

And that's ignoring Marethari's idiotic belief that if Merrill gives up her quest and returns home, things will be hunky-dory right off the bat. Right, it's not like the Dalish aren't still going to revile her or if she was Tainted that she wouldn't attract an assload of Darkspawn/become a broodmother/go off in search of the Darkspawn.

[lil yonce]

Hazegurl wrote...

Right, he should really listen to himself. He says that Merrill lacks confidence and becomes weak based on Hawke not supporting her, Anders makes her scared by telling her what could happen to her, and she is naive about human culture. BUT Merrill can thwart a demon's attempt at manipulation, master word games, and have the mental strength and fortitude to battle wits with a pride demon.

I'll fall back and let you handle this one. Apparently, I don't have a modicum of sense! I'm just too stupid to see what's going on! SMH.

[TEWR]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, it's locked inside an idol. It's perfectly safe unless some overly prideful idiot of a keeper decides she actually wants to be an abomination to do unclear things to Merrill.

Merrill wants to open the idol herself. That is why she asks Hawke to come along - to kill her if she becomes possessed. Maybe she will, maybe she won't, but that hardly makes Merrill smarter or humbler than Marethari. Both think that opening the idol and risking being possessed is something they should do.

Actually, Merrill says she just wants to talk to the Demon. Talking does not mean freeing, and there's no indication that Merrill even knows the particular spell needed to free the Demon, only that she knows powerful magic is needed as it's the sole method he could be freed.

If an aggressive Hawke says "You want me to help you free a demon?" she shoots down the prospect, saying that she's not going there to do that and is not asking Hawke to help.

She says that while she's only going there to talk, she's not certain things will go smoothly and just wants to have a precaution just incase.

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

How does rivaling Merrill equal thinking she is a monster?

I was referring more to how the Dalish view her thanks to Marethari's slanderous lies of how she'll "bring back the Taint", despite the fact that Merrill has not only cleansed it of its corruption but has gone over that fact with the Keeper. Like how Pol decided a crazed Varterral that had proven itself at killing three trained hunters was a safer thing to be near then Merrill, who hasn't harmed anyone in her life.

And that's ignoring Marethari's idiotic belief that if Merrill gives up her quest and returns home, things will be hunky-dory right off the bat. Right, it's not like the Dalish aren't still going to revile her or if she was Tainted that she wouldn't attract an assload of Darkspawn/become a broodmother/go off in search of the Darkspawn.

Marethari has all the right to warn the clan that Merrill might be a danger as she contniues this hopeless quest. We have no proof that taint can not come back. If Merrill wants to fiddle with afairs that are dangerous, so be it, but she better pay the cost for it, and she does.

[iOnlySignIn]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Actually, Merrill says she just wants to talk to the Demon. Talking does not mean freeing, and there's no indication that Merrill even knows the particular spell needed to free the Demon, only that she knows powerful magic is needed as it's the sole method he could be freed.

If an aggressive Hawke says "You want me to help you free a demon?" she shoots down the prospect, saying that she's not going there to do that and is not asking Hawke to help.

She says that while she's only going there to talk, she's not certain things will go smoothly and just wants to have a precaution just incase.

OK that makes much more sense. I never choose the Aggressive dialogue there so I wouldn't know.

Edit: Also, because of what you just told me, the Dalish will be slaughtered in that quest in all my playthroughs from now on.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 10 mai 2013 - 06:08 .

[TEWR]

Mr.House wrote...

Merrill fell to a weak pride demon in the fade earlier in the game. The odds of her not falling to the Pride Demon who is alot stronger and has been using Merrill is so slim it's not worth even mentioning.

Okay, one Pride Demons are hardly weak.

Two, Pride Demons and Desire Demons are capable of mind control -- especially in the Fade where they're at their most powerful -- and that's what happened to everyone there. This is not only what the companions state, but what in-game lore (the codex) says these Demons are capable of.

Third, Audacity is weaker then Wryme by virtue of being sundered from the Fade -- which cuts off his power supply -- and trapped in a demonic Buddha statue. Hence why he wanted a Mage to possess. A mage comes with a connection to the Fade and a lot of power.

Frankly, I view what happened to Merrill in the Fade as a good thing, but I don't hold it against her. She's now even more prepared to deal with Demons, and I happen to think she went in there prepared but Wryme overpowered her will, so she's now even more of a Determinator after that incident.

[TEWR]

Mr.House wrote..

Marethari has all the right to warn the clan that Merrill might be a danger as she contniues this hopeless quest. We have no proof that taint can not come back. If Merrill wants to fiddle with afairs that are dangerous, so be it, but she better pay the cost for it, and she does. 

Other then the fact that Anders the Grey Warden, if brought to Merrill's home in Act 2, doesn't remark upon the Taint being present -- which indicates that it's not there at all -- when he has an actual line of dialogue in that house during Merrill's introduction to her Act 2 quest.

Other then the fact that blood magic has been proven to have effects on the Taint's effects on the body (Avernus) and the fact that the magic Merrill amplified with her blood (Dalish healing magic) was proven to combat the Taint in Mahariel for 3 days in an unamplified state -- per DAO, Merrill knows this type of spell which is why Marethari sent Merrill to investigate the ruins.

And also, the obvious that a living being is different from an inanimate object. Since the Taint is in a person's system, it'd be hard to remove it entirely since it's constantly circulating through the bloodstream. Since a shard of glass is just that, it'd be easier to cleanse.

And... Fiona was cured of the Taint by (admittedly) Darkspawn magic, which has been likened to operating like Blood magic.

Right, no proof at all.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 mai 2013 - 06:18 .

[lil yonce]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Why are you insulting me? It is of course possible she could become an abomination because she's dealing with a Pride demon and everything about her is playing right into its wheelhouse.

Possibility and probability are two different things.

Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No.

And can't you see that this is your opinion and not irrefutable fact?

[TEWR]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

OK that makes much more sense. I never choose the Aggressive dialogue there so I wouldn't know.

Edit: Also, because of what you just told me, the Dalish will be slaughtered in that quest in all my playthroughs from now on.

Success!

But there's no need to kill them. My Hawkes know that the clan's just eager to have a scapegoat and is willing to act irrationally now, as they've done in the past (Pol and Keeper), and knows Merrill is in pain, so in order to prevent more bloodshed he lies about taking responsibility for Merrill's actions -- or whatever the option was that spares the clan -- because it's 1) what the clans want to hear and 2) a smart thing to say, given body language at that moment and past actions.

They now have a new Keeper (Visell) who's definitely smarter then Marethari, capable of realizing that staying in the same place for so long was bad since it attracted poorly veiled threats from Chantry priests and Templars.

[TEWR]

Youth4Ever wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Youth4Ever wrote...

Why are you insulting me? It is of course possible she could become an abomination because she's dealing with a Pride demon and everything about her is playing right into its wheelhouse.

Possibility and probability are two different things.

Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? No.

And can't you see that this is your opinion and not irrefutable fact?

Given that all lore we currently have points to it not being probable, then no.

Given that speculation is the only basis of it being probable, also no.

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mr.House wrote..

Marethari has all the right to warn the clan that Merrill might be a danger as she contniues this hopeless quest. We have no proof that taint can not come back. If Merrill wants to fiddle with afairs that are dangerous, so be it, but she better pay the cost for it, and she does. 

Other then the fact that Anders the Grey Warden, if brought to Merrill's home in Act 2, doesn't remark upon the Taint being present -- which indicates that it's not there at all -- when he has an actual line of dialogue in that house. Other then the fact that blood magic has been proven to have effects on the Taint's effects on the body (Avernus) and the fact that the magic Merrill amplified with her blood (Dalish healing magic) was proven to combat the Taint in Mahariel for 3 days in an unamplified state -- per DAO, Merrill knows this type of spell which is why Marethari sent Merrill to investigate the ruins.

Right, no proof at all.

What's to stop the taint from ocming back, what's to say Merrill is corrupted and even a gray warden would not be able to sesne it. I can go on, but of course Marethari is stupid and Merrill is smart. Yup.

[TEWR]

Mr.House wrote...

What's to stop the taint from ocming back, what's to say Merrill is corrupted and even a gray warden would not be able to sesne it. I can go on, but of course Marethari is stupid and Merrill is smart. Yup.

Duncan was able to sense the Taint in the mirror. If Duncan could do it and Anders could sense the Taint in a living person as a Year 1 Warden, I'd think a mirror that was tainted wouldn't be something he couldn't sense.

And if you're going to use speculation as reason for why X is bad without actual evidence to suggest X is bad, then there's no merit to the arguments.

It's called burden of proof. You posit a claim or hypothesis, there must be evidence to back it up.

This is Marethari's problem. She comes up with possibilities without even actual evidence to support it, much less does she do the reasonable things like... oh... go see Merrill if she found all this out. She's got no qualms about helping strangers to her clan (Feynriel's mom and Feynriel himself) but can't go to Kirkwall with a book to see Merrill and say "See, read paragraph 9 subsection 4 Article C on 'Eluvians and ****: Why the Fan Inevitably Meets the Latter'."

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 mai 2013 - 06:24 .

[Hazegurl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

When you rival him, Justice/Vengeance forcibly controls Anders to do what he wants half the time. The other half is Anders trying desperately to deny that he's become a monster by hoping he can keep it in check.

It's because no one supports her. With Anders and Fenris and the rest, people support their lifestyles and their choices. Fenris has the Templars, Anders the Mages, Aveline the Guard, Isabela has her friends and bar buddies, Varric has his friends, etc.

Anders may be battling Justice but he is still adamant about his belief in "mage freedom" it is Justice's twisted acts he has to fight against. Also, I'm not the one who says Merrill has become weak. That is Lob's opinion. I merely state that IF Merrill has become so weak due to the lack of support then that is her problem. And like I said before, if no one supports what you are doing, then perhaps you need to take a step back and reevaluate your choices.

Hawke should not be obligated to support her unhealthy habits just to make her feel better about making poor choices in life. IMO, the Friendship path with Merrill is the path of total enabling.

[Hazegurl]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Right, he should really listen to himself. He says that Merrill lacks confidence and becomes weak based on Hawke not supporting her, Anders makes her scared by telling her what could happen to her, and she is naive about human culture. BUT Merrill can thwart a demon's attempt at manipulation, master word games, and have the mental strength and fortitude to battle wits with a pride demon.

I'll fall back and let you handle this one. Apparently, I don't have a modicum of sense! I'm just too stupid to see what's going on! SMH.

Don't worry, apparantly I'm coldhearted and don't understand how a person can lose their self esteem due to a lack of support. 

[TEWR]

Hazegurl wrote...

 Also, I'm not the one who says Merrill has become weak. That is Lob's opinion.

Yet you stated the following:

Then that makes Merrill an extermely weak person period

whereas Lob merely commented that she lacks confidence in herself as a result of lack of support entirely.

I merely state that IF Merrill has become so weak due to the lack of support then that is her problem. And like I said before, if no one supports what you are doing, then perhaps you need to take a step back and reevaluate your choices.

That's not true for everything. People go through instances in their lives where no one supports them, yet there's nothing wrong with what they're doing.

For instance, picking a career path. If no one supports your decision to become a teacher, does that mean you're wrong?

And going with a "Deal with it" mentality for someone losing their self-worth is also not helpful or conducive to one's mental well-being.

Hawke should not be obligated to support her unhealthy habits just to make her feel better about making poor choices in life. IMO, the Friendship path with Merrill is the path of total enabling. 

Alright, we're not talking about her shooting up and snorting lyrium here like a druggie Templar.

We're talking about her repairing an ancient artifact to discover what it can do. The fact that it's part of a forgotten culture makes her akin to an archaeologist. The fact that she uses lore and what scraps of notes she finds on the subject also makes her akin to one.

We're also not talking about her cutting herself daily to repair the mirror. She used blood magic once in her endeavor, and that was to amplify Dalish healing magic to cleanse the shard of its Taint.

Finally, if romanced, her obsession with it changes into a dedicated passion, as it's no longer the most important thing in the world for her (if it ever was).

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 mai 2013 - 06:35 .

[TEWR]

Hazegurl wrote...

Right, he should really listen to himself. He says that Merrill lacks confidence and becomes weak based on Hawke not supporting her, Anders makes her scared by telling her what could happen to her, and she is naive about human culture. BUT Merrill can thwart a demon's attempt at manipulation, master word games, and have the mental strength and fortitude to battle wits with a pride demon

It's really quite simple. IF you rival her, you destroy her mental strength in herself and the capability of resisting the Demon's wiles, thus you're actually endangering her life. A shattered pride is a manipulated one.

If you support her, then she has confidence in what she's doing and is capable of resisting the Demon's wiles.