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[In Exile]

Dark Korsar wrote...
1)Zathrian
2)Merril
3)Velanna
4)Lanaya
5)Fionna
6)Feynriel

and this is only a very small part of all the possible candidates

Merril and Velanna are absolutely horrible candidates - ignoring the fact that neither of them could actually understand even the basic principles of social interaction, actually creating a nation state requires the kind of political and organizational leadership that the elves simply lack , either Dalish or CE.

If Fionna actually wanted to take on the cause of elven freedom as well, she'd be the best candidate in that leading the mages would give her experience, but she's also caught up in an entirely different cause and there'd be (to say the least) a huge conflict of interest in her leading elves as well as mages. 

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Yes, it's locked inside an idol. It's perfectly safe unless some overly prideful idiot of a keeper decides she actually wants to be an abomination to do unclear things to Merrill.

It's clearly not safe - Audacity can appear in dreams and interact with mages at a distance. It suceeds in tricking Marethari and playing games with Merrill without ever having a physical presence. Audacity was dangerous because of what it could plot - and because none of the mages it toyed with could wrap their minds around an actual political ploy, and instead just thought in terms of really simple aims, i.e., that Audacity wanted to posses Merrill. 

[Sir JK]

Let's keep Merrill, her use of magic and relationship with Audacity in the magic threads shall we? It has very little to do with an elven homeland.

As for the suggested elven leadership, I agree with In Exile. Merrill and Velanna are far from mature enough when we last saw them to take on a role as a elven leader. Velanna was taking her first steps in the direction and a rivalled Merrill could be going in that direction. But we've seen neither actually show any traits that we could associated with good leadership, let alone political skills.

Fiona is a city elf, and while her experience speaks for her I doubt that she'd abandon the mages. Nor for that matter, that the Dalish would accept her as their leader. A leader perhaps, but not the leader. They'll want a dalish for that.
Same problem with Feynriel (who is a half elf, which is even worse), Zevran (he's an elf too!) and even to a degree Lanaya. The latter has a chance though, being a keeper after all. But given that she had to fight tooth and nail to become one, I doubt becoming the overall leader for many dalish clans is a gargantuan task.

Zathrian is too old a dog. He has the respect, certainly. But I wonder if he could ever let go of the dalish life to actually start building a new nation for the elves. Plus there's the tiny problem with him being fairly dead in many playthroughs.
And if he's present, he's probably in Lanaya's way.

All in all... if it happens. it's probably someone new.

[In Exile]

Sir JK wrote...
As for the suggested elven leadership, I agree with In Exile. Merrill and Velanna are far from mature enough when we last saw them to take on a role as a elven leader. Velanna was taking her first steps in the direction and a rivalled Merrill could be going in that direction. But we've seen neither actually show any traits that we could associated with good leadership, let alone political skills.

I don't think it's about maturity. I don't think either ever has the capacity to lead. If Valenna tones down her outright genocidal tendencies, she's still too much of a war-loving hardliner. The biggest part of creating an Elven state, even if everyone agrees that a racially segregated utopia is the way to go, will be to bring a coalition of interests on the same page to actually build a society. Valenna is way too militant for that. Her views led to her clan effectively fracturing. 

As for Merrill, she's just socially inept. There's no way that a person like that could ever survive politics. Put her in a room with four people, and she'll be completely unable to read them, predict their moves, or otherwise treat them as social agents. 

Fiona is a city elf, and while her experience speaks for her I doubt that she'd abandon the mages. Nor for that matter, that the Dalish would accept her as their leader. A leader perhaps, but not the leader. They'll want a dalish for that.

But the opposite will be true for the CEs. Why would they accept a leader whose entire culture treats them as second class citizens, and whose ideology is to look down on them as being somehow lesser fo rhte lives they lead?

Same problem with Feynriel (who is a half elf, which is even worse), Zevran (he's an elf too!) and even to a degree Lanaya. The latter has a chance though, being a keeper after all. But given that she had to fight tooth and nail to become one, I doubt becoming the overall leader for many dalish clans is a gargantuan task.  

Becoming leader of the Dalish != being able to lead the elves in a rebellion. As I said - there are two distinct camps of elves that have to come toghether, CE and Dalish. 

Zathrian is too old a dog. He has the respect, certainly. But I wonder if he could ever let go of the dalish life to actually start building a new nation for the elves. Plus there's the tiny problem with him being fairly dead in many playthroughs.

If Zathrian is alive, he's a militant racist loon. So the same problem as Velanna applies. 

[eye basher]

I somehow doubt the inquisition cares about the elves they probably have bigger fish to fry like the ones who started the war and i don't mean that expendable pawn Anders.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Your line about the Dalish being "segregated" and "racially pure", when their kingdom kept out an empire of conquerors who were trying to create a society under one single religion, and the remanants of that society are currently nomadic because the templars hunt them down and Andrastians are often intolerant towards them as elves and heathens.  [/quote]

That's all quite terrible, but none of it justifies the moral value of either racial segregation or the general Dalish ideology of racial purity. These are just prima facie adhorent ideals, no matter what gloss you're giving them. [/quote]

It's not an ideal of racial purity. Procreation with humans literally leads to human offpspring, which is confirmed by the developers, by the novel "The Calling", and by the games. That doesn't stop the Dalish adopting the historical Aveline into the clan, despite being a human who was abandoned as an infant, or Feynriel, who is only Dalish on his mother's side.

As for the historical kingdom of the Dales keeping out humans, their neighbor was an aggressive invader, with the people following a religion that has disdain for free mages and people of different faiths. The elves of the kingdom of the Dales followed a different culture and a different religion, while we know the Chantry labels people of different faiths as heathens.

And if the history of the Dalish is correct about templars invading their sovereign territory as a result of the elves refusing to convert and kicking out the Chantry missionaries, then their concerns about their untrustworthy neighbor proved to be correct.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Again, it pertained to your line about the Dalish being "segregated" and "racially pure". I don't think having a kingdom where the elves won't be viewed as less than people, and where they can worship their religion freely (since it was outlawed by the Andrastian Chantry) is a bad thing. [/quote]

It's not a bad thing. It's, in fact, a wonderful thing. But a kingdom where the elves are free to worship whatever religion they wish and are treated as equal citizens has nothing to do with an all-elven kingdom that has an absolute policy to exclude humans on the hypothetical basis that they carry some magical plague, with the actual express long-term goal of the state to create a race of all-mage elven immortals. [/quote]

We already know some of the Dalish live longer the more generations they live away from humans, so it's not really hypothetical to them; they believe it to be true, it's part of their lore, and it's one of the goals from the Dales when the kingdom was free and independent. Despite that goal, the clans welcomed into their ranks the historical Aveline, Feynriel, and their treaty with the Grey Wardens called for having elven soldiers fighting alongside human warriors from kingdoms that helped invade and occupy the Dales.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

See, one goal is laudable and based on social justice. The other is just racist supremacist ideology. [/quote]

It's racist to seek the return of the immortality of their people?

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

However, we also have examples where the Dalish adopted humans, from the historical Aveline to Feynriel (who is technically human, since the children of humans and elves are human). [/quote]

Which totally goes against the ideology of racial purity and keeping humans away because of a nonsensical hypothical mortality plague. Again - totally laudable act that Marethari does, but entirely the opposite of everything that I find offensive about what the Dalish believe about themselves, other elves, or humans. [/quote]

Except for the fact that we already have Gaider saying that the Dalish seem to live longer the more generations they live away from humans while the Alienage elves only live as long as humans, and we have characters saying that the Dalish live longer as well. The idea that it's "nonsensical" is disproven by the fact that the Dalish live longer than their Alienage counterparts, which allows for the possibility that their lore could be true.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Furthermore, it's possible the elves living in the occupied kingdom of the Dales might have held onto the traditions of their ancestors, and the Dalish are meeting in the Dales now. Regardless, the Dalish are said to be gathering in Halamshiral, for the Arlathvhen. [/quote]

That's all well and good, but again, there's a difference between what the Dalish want and what the elves want. [/quote]

I suppose we'll eventually find out what the elves in Inquisition want. I simply hope they aren't marginalized simply because the protagonist is human, or that their plight is overshadowed by the Orlesian civil war that I couldn't care less about.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I recall Hawke standing idly by while two templars took Bethany away to the Circle of Kirkwall, where he knew mages were being made tranquil illegally. Or not bothering to warn his mother that there's a serial killer on the loose who targets women. The argument that Hawke is protecting his family doesn't carry much weight with me when he does nothing of the kind. [/quote]

Then the argument that Merrill gives a damn about the elves, when she lives for a decade in the poverty ridden alienage and does nothing as people are beaten and starve around her should undermine any notion that she's taking any action to help the elves. [/quote]

Elves don't really have any rights in the Alienages, and I doubt Merrill petitioning the Viscount or the Knight-Commander would change that. It requires the Elven Warden to become Bann for the elves in Denerim to get any real hope, and King Alistair does provide a seat to the elves for representation in the face of the controversy that it provokes among the humans.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

And her comments about how horrible the conditions in the alienage are, and how she's never known about it, should undermine any notion that she has any idea or expertiese in how bad life really is for the elves. [/quote]

Merrill comments on how horrible the Alienage is in Act I. She even makes an incredibly sarcastic comment to Ilen about it.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Communication over fast distances has fundamentally altered our society, which is one of the facets of the Eluvians. [/quote]

You mean, communicate fast over great distances. And that hasn't done anything for our society. The most impovrished humans on the planet how have access to the telephone. How has that improved their life at all? It's not talking to people far away that matters - it's the economic and social developments that come about as a result of that, and the elves don't have even a remotely functioning society to be able to do that.

And what do you think will happen if word gets out that the Dalish have this amazing technology? Tevinter will try to enslave the lot of them faster than you can say "magisters-failed-to-recreate-what?" [/quote]

I actually meant vast. And I couldn't disagree with you more about the changes that have undergone society with the ability for people to communicate over vast distances. This forum is an example of people doing precisely that, and it allows for people to share ideas, cultural views, historical information, and so much more. I imagine that the vastly different types of elves Sir JK mentioned in the other elven thread could have a lot to talk about with their fellow elves if they were able to share their experiences with one another.

Perhaps if the Dales can become free, they can have that opportunity, regardless of the fate of the Eluvian. And I imagine Tevinter has it's hands full with the Qunari. It would be a mistake to engage in a two-front war.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Why do you think that wouldn't be true for the Dalish? Or travelling to the place Morrigan wanted to go to because it would enpower her. [/quote]

We have absolutely no idea what's beyond the Fade, and Morrigan suggests that the Warden can't even return when going through it. For all we know it's a desolate land of terror and death. [/quote]

That's true. None of us have read the lore on the Eluvian, and we don't have the same information that Morrigan or Merrill have.

I'm curious as to how the other clans might react if Ariane tells them what happened with Morrigan and The Warden, who can leave Ferelden to join her through the Eluvian. I'm also curious if Morrigan's "gift" will be of any benefit to the People, since Ariane likely has it if The Warden left everyone and everything behind to be with Morrigan and his son.

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Given that Merrill was the one who studied the lore on the Eluvian, she seemed to think it could benefit the People. [/quote]

Merrill thinks that it's worth recovering the history of her people, because that's the role of the Keeper. Only in your mind did Merrill intending anything other than what she expressly says, on multiple occassions, she's doing. [/quote]

Merrill says, "But still, I know it can help my people."

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill explicitly says that she was trying to help her people, and she's willing to risk her life if the outcome can benefit the Dalish. [/quote]

Merril says she's recovering their history, and that's how she's helping. Pretending otherwise is just lying. [/quote]

Merrill says: "All this time I thought I could help them. Save them."

[quote]In Exile wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I wasn't aware I needed to address every single possibility every time I address something that interests me. [/quote]

It's generally a good idea to think your requests through and actually ask for what you want. Racial choice doesn't mean getting what you want. [/quote]

I'd like to see the return of racial options. I'd like to have the option to play a character who doesn't believe in the Maker. I'd like to help the elves regain their kingdom, so they can have a society where they can follow their own religious beliefs without being killed for it.

[In Exile]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
It's not an ideal of racial purity. Procreation with humans literally leads to human offpspring, which is confirmed by the developers, by the novel "The Calling", and by the games. That doesn't stop the Dalish adopting the historical Aveline into the clan, despite being a human who was abandoned as an infant, or Feynriel, who is only Dalish on his mother's side. [/quote]

That's absolutely an idea of racial purity. The fact that the elves believe that there's a kind of inherent "elven-ness" that separates out humans and elves on a kind of essential basis, instead of there being a kind of continuum between the sapient races, is the very nature of racial purity. 

A white supremacist, for example, thinks that a child of mixed background is not white and instead entirely the race of the non-white parent. Fantasy has pretty abhorent underlying ideas of race because that's just the era that it developed it. But there's no reason for us - as 21st century observes - to actually endorse a racist ideology. 

Taking the idea that there's actually a normative difference between "elf" and "human" and "qunari" in terms of what each is, at their core, is the essence of racism, because it's a distinction based on race. Even if these differences do exist, the goal should be to erase them as much as the laws of nature of the setting allow for, not gleefully endorse an ideology than in our world is responsible for some of the most horrible abuses imaginable.  

[quote]As for the historical kingdom of the Dales keeping out humans, their neighbor was an aggressive invader, with the people following a religion that has disdain for free mages and people of different faiths. The elves of the kingdom of the Dales followed a different culture and a different religion, while we know the Chantry labels people of different faiths as heathens. [/quote]

There's nothing wrong, again, with a beleaguered culture trying to protect and preserve itself. It's just that there's a racist and offensive way of doing it, and a civilized and just way of doing it. 

[quote]We already know some of the Dalish live longer the more generations they live away from humans[/quote]

No we don't. Mary Kirby outright said that this is false. 

[quote]they believe it to be true, it's part of their lore, and it's one of the goals from the Dales when the kingdom was free and independent.[/quote]

White supremacists believe whites are superior and that this justifies forceful segregation. This isn't some laudable goal - it's one of the most offensive beliefs that currently exist. 

[quote]It's racist to seek the return of the immortality of their people?[/quote]

It's racist to believe that elves are superior, that humans are some kind of plague, and that there's a moral imperative to create an all elf kingdom to breed a race of immortal elf mages. We're talking 1930s level of racist. 

[quote]Except for the fact that we already have Gaider saying that the Dalish seem to live longer the more generations they live away from humans while the Alienage elves only live as long as humans, [/quote]

And we've seen Mary Kirby say this is false, and we've seen you lie and cherry-pick information about it.

[quote]and we have characters saying that the Dalish live longer as well. The idea that it's "nonsensical" is disproven by the fact that the Dalish live longer than their Alienage counterparts, which allows for the possibility that their lore could be true. [/quote]

Even if I actually take this logical black hole of an argument seriously, it applies equally well to everything every racial supremacist group says about the inherent superiority of their race. Which is what makes the argument offfensive. 

Not to mention, as I've said repeatedly, the quality of evidence that exists for this being true is actually less than the quality of evidence that exists to suppor the claim that everything the Chantry says is true. This is what makes your beliefs so comical and impossible to take seriously. 

The only standard of evidence you seem to have is the one that you think shows that whatever belief you have is right. 

[quote]Elves don't really have any rights in the Alienages, and I doubt Merrill petitioning the Viscount or the Knight-Commander would change that. [/quote]

Maybe she could give them food. That would be awesome! Starving masses love food. Maybe she could learn some healing magic and do what Anders does for the Fereldens. But that would require that she actually care. 

[quote]Merrill comments on how horrible the Alienage is in Act I. She even makes an incredibly sarcastic comment to Ilen about it. [/quote]

And then proceeds to do nothing about it. So she's apparently so callous that the suffering of her people is a joke to her. 

[quote]I actually meant vast. And I couldn't disagree with you more about the changes that have undergone society with the ability for people to communicate over vast distances. This forum is an example of people doing precisely that, and it allows for people to share ideas, cultural views, historical information, and so much more. I imagine that the vastly different types of elves Sir JK mentioned in the other elven thread could have a lot to talk about with their fellow elves if they were able to share their experiences with one another. [/quote]

There are over a billion people liven in adject poverty. Parts of Africa often deal with famine on a scale that you can't even imagine. Hundreds of million of people live under oppressive dictatorships, or during periods of civil war.

The internet is worth nothing to them. It won't feed them. It doesn't prevent tyrants from beating them or exploting them. It requires money and resources to even have access to it, and the kind of infrastructure most of these countries can't even have access to. 

[quote]Merrill says, "But still, I know it can help my people." [/quote]

Yes, Merrill thinks the Eluvian and its history will be a great boon. I'm not about to go quote-hunting now, but this doesn't prove anything about what the Eluvian can do.

[quote]Merrill says: "All this time I thought I could help them. Save them."[/quote]

And Hawke can talk a mean game about wanting to save the mages from the Templars and how it's all tyrannical from Act I. The pathetic amount Hawke does for Mage freedom before Act III is still several times more than anything Merrill does for the CEs.

Modifié par In Exile, 12 mai 2013 - 05:52 .

[In Exile]

StreetMagic wrote...
The funny/ironic thing is that the only people who understand this are the dawkspawn. I can't be sure, but I think their army is full of former humans, dwarves, and even maybe corrupted Kossith (Ogres).

The darkspawn aren't corrupted per se. Broodmothers are ghouls. What they make is based of how the taint alters them... but it isn't right to say that the end result is the old race. They're darkspawn - all of them. 

[ReallyRue]

I hope that DA3 lays the groundwork for this issue (as DA2 has presumably done for the mage/templar thing in DA3), and then it is explored properly in DA4. I don't think the elves are anywhere near near having a rebellion or going to war with anyone. We need to see some build up, it can't just randomly happen.

I'd also much rather play through that with race options, because I'd like to play through as an elf and contrast it with a human/dwarf (or Qunari/Tal Vashoth). Hell, contrasting between a City Elf and Dalish experience would be interesting too.

[Hazegurl]

StreetMagic wrote...

Sure, they're all darkspawn, but that's kind of my point. That they see themselves that way is to their credit. They just see all of these differences as mere variances in genetic material. They have no qualms about what kind of "flesh" they work with.

So the irony I'm pointing out is that for all their faults, they've at least moved past any petty differences.

You're right,  I was actually surprised that they had Dwarf broodmothers. Even though they are supposed to be the big bad evil of the game.

As for the Dalish and racial purity, this is actually one of the reasons why I don't care at all about the Dalish or whether or not they get their homeland back. I have yet to meet a Dalish Elf that I cared enough about to risk life and limb for their homeland.  They are very exclusive, very much about racial purity. Like I want to help people like that reclaim their homeland. The only reason why I would help them do that is if the city Elves benefit from it. If not, then they can keep wandering the woods for all I care.

[Solmanian]

Considering the game suppose to focus on the mage-templar, I'd say no. Elven independence seems like to much of a detour. Maybe you'll get a quest where the empress gives a human bro-fist and tells you to hunt down and execute the leaders of those knife eared troublemakers.

[TEWR]

I'm not about to go quote-hunting now, but this doesn't prove anything about what the Eluvian can do.

Actually, in-game she talks about how it was used to communicate over vast distances (something Finn also said). And of course, Morrigan's use of it.

Maybe she could give them food. That would be awesome! Starving masses love food. Maybe she could learn some healing magic and do what Anders does for the Fereldens. But that would require that she actually care.

She does know healing magic. DAO established this, and she used blood magic to amplify said healing magic (something lyrium also would've done, had she the means to acquire it).

Also, she knows some people within the Alienage and is friendly with them. Nyssa, for instance.

Sure, she doesn't interact much with the Alienage but it's a bit of a double-edged sword. People actually avoided her and her neighbors (most) ignored her (her Act 2 codex). She knows how bad the Alienage is, but most Alienage folk don't want anything to do with her because the Chantry actively spreads propaganda that the Dalish are "savages" (per DAO's CE origin).

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 mai 2013 - 08:39 .

[In Exile]

Faerunner wrote...
Humans believe in inherent "elven-ness" too, and keep elves slaves and second-class citizens for it.

That's because they're mostly a bunch of racists. 

Elves have have their own genetic (lithe and pointy-eared), religious (elven pathogen), cultural (community and traditions) and historical (Arlathan and Dales) heritage.

That's all true.

They aren't allowed to practice their heriatge fully in human society, their mixed children become humans and integrate in human society, yet you condemn them for wanting to preserve their heritage and way of life as much as possible?

No, I condemn any kind of ideology that's actually racist. Being a victim doesn't make it okay to believe and advocate racists things. I fully support city elves empowering themselves, rising up from the Alienages against their racist human overlords, and creating their own state where they're free to pursue a just society for the elves.

But a society where elven culture is respected is not a society that uses state power to force migration of humans out of their borders, or believes that humans are plague-bearing rats as a matter of state policy, or believes that the morally just end for the elves is to breed a race of immortal mages. 

All of that is racist. 

False analogy. Real children of mixed parentage can still inherit noticeable traits from both parents and recessive traits can still show up in future generations.

That's all just physical. None of that means anything unless we give it meaning. And the meaning we give it is racist. The whole point of our just society is to dismiss these physical traits as being anything other than physical traits. I can't believe I'm honestly having to defend this view.

With elves and humans, ALL children of humans and elves become human without exception, and ALL of their descendents remain human no matter how many elves go back to the bloodline. When an elf has a human child, the elven line stops with that child forever.

This is exactly the kind of thing that makes it racist! Let's quote the thing you just said:

Elves have have their own genetic (lithe and pointy-eared), religious (elven pathogen), cultural (community and traditions) and historical (Arlathan and Dales) heritage. 

A person that has a human and elf parent hasn't lost his or her religion (the child could be brought up to believe in the creator), their cultural community (the child could be brought up in the community culture, learn and partake in those traditions) and could relate to that shared sense of cultural history.

Not to mention that being elven is cultural as well as genetic.

Not according to you, since you just said "[w]hen an elf has a human child, the elven line stops with that child forever." That's making being elven exclusively genetic. 

A better analogy would be real-world Jews, Romani, Native Americans, etc. People's whose culture and lifestyle are connected to their heritage. Second-class citizens dependent on majority populations to get by. Beliefs and lifestyles passed down from generation to generation in hostile environments. They resist integrating with the majority population because they don't want to lose their cultural heritage.

Speaking as someone who is Jewish - and there are a lot of minefields to cross here, in terms of what say someone who is reform might believe versus someone who is Orthodox - there's a big difference, in that not everyone believes that to be Jewish is something that extends beyond culture and religion. 

In other words, elves have to give up their genetic and cultural heritage while humans get to keep theirs.

Yeah, that's fair.

What the ... 

Please, please point to where I said anything that goes even close to that. Seriously, one sentence. Hell, one phrase where I even hint at this. 

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Actually, in-game she talks about how it was used to communicate over vast distances (something Finn also said). And of course, Morrigan's use of it.

To clarify, I meant that Merrill's intention to help the Dalish by re-creating the Eluvian doesn't prove that the Eluvian will actually improve the lives of the Dalish. 

[TEWR]

In Exile wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Actually, in-game she talks about how it was used to communicate over vast distances (something Finn also said). And of course, Morrigan's use of it.

To clarify, I meant that Merrill's intention to help the Dalish by re-creating the Eluvian doesn't prove that the Eluvian will actually improve the lives of the Dalish. 

First, I edited in another reply to something you said regarding Merrill and the Alienage. Didn't think you'd be in this thread again so fast, heh.

Second, I can think of one way. Imagine a similar situation like the Sabrae clan's situation for some other group of Dalish Elves, where all their halla have died.

The Keeper could then use the Eluvian to contact a fellow clan, assuming they're mass produced and handed out to the Keepers at an Arlathvhen, and say "Hey, we're stuck up in Nevarra's mountains without any halla. Can you bring some for us?"

Communication is actually a lifesaver these days. Perfect? No, but it sure as hell helps.

Also imagine the call for Elves to aid in the Blights. In DAO, a messenger would be lucky if he found a few clans that he had an inkling of where they were. With Eluvians, it's easier to do.

In this sense, if Merrill had been able to get the Eluvian working she could've contacted a fellow clan and indeed have saved her clan.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 mai 2013 - 08:52 .

[Hurbster]

From the meme thread.

BouncyFrag wrote...

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Sure, she doesn't interact much with the Alienage but it's a bit of a double-edged sword. People actually avoided her and her neighbors (most) ignored her (her Act 2 codex). She knows how bad the Alienage is, but most Alienage folk don't want anything to do with her because the Chantry actively spreads propaganda that the Dalish are "savages" (per DAO's CE origin).

Anders is an apostate. The Dalish spread a lot worse about them, including that they're all maleficarum. And yet Anders built his clinic all the same. Merrill certainly could do that much. Maybe the sick and dying won't want to see her - but some will. 

Second, I can think of one way. Imagine a similar situation like the Sabrae clan's situation for some other group of Dalish Elves, where all their halla have died.

The Keeper could then use the Eluvian to contact a fellow clan, assuming they're mass produced and handed out to the Keepers at an Arlathvhen, and say "Hey, we're stuck up in Nevarra's mountains without any halla. Can you bring some for us?"

Communication is actually a lifesaver these days. Perfect? No, but it sure as hell helps.

If they're mass produced, there won't be Dalish left. As soon as it gets out that they have them, every kingdom in Thedas - likely including the Qunari - will be after them to obtain compies. 

I'm not denying that communication doesn't help, just that it won't help the CEs, who she sees suffering in front of her and isn't trying to move heaven and earth to help.

Also imagine the call for Elves to aid in the Blights. In DAO, a messenger would be lucky if he found a few clans that he had an inkling of where they were. With Eluvians, it's easier to do.

If the mirrors are public knowledge, again, bad vibes. 

In this sense, if Merrill had been able to get the Eluvian working she could've contacted a fellow clan and indeed have saved her clan.

What do you mean? Her clan - unless Hawke kills them - isn't mostly OK. 

[TEWR]

If the mirrors are public knowledge, again, bad vibes.

The Arlathvhens have been going on for centuries, yet only the Dalish and a handful of City Elves know about them.

Mass produce them there. Or just keep building more throughout the years as you travel.

Mass production to me doesn't just mean hundreds in a single day.

Anders is an apostate. The Dalish spread a lot worse about them, including that they're all maleficarum. And yet Anders built his clinic all the same. Merrill certainly could do that much. Maybe the sick and dying won't want to see her - but some will

I'd argue that the Eluvian itself constitutes helping the Alienage Elves in its own form.

Though I am kinda pissed that Bioware decided to make Merrill incapable of healing when that was what DAO told us she could do. As if DAII didn't have enough gameplay/story segregation.

What do you mean? Her clan - unless Hawke kills them - isn't mostly OK.

Scenario:

1) Merrill builds Eluvian
2) Eluvian works at say... year 4 of her time on the project.
3) Merrill can then build another one in less time (you get faster building objects if they're precisely the same thing)
4) King Alistair takes the Eluvian to a Dalish clan because he's an actual decent person or Hawke agrees to go to Ferelden and find a clan. Or Hawke sends Merrill on her own.
5) Clan is found, receives Eluvian.
6) Clan A (the recipient) contacts Clan B (the ones in need of help) after Hawke/Merrill/Alistair says "Give it a whirl by doing X"
7) Happy halla go to new clan within the year.

Like I said, it's not going to have its full capacities until it's created en masse -- which doesn't necessarily mean a ****load made in rapid succession -- and given to each Keeper, but still. 

It could've saved Merrill's clan. You find out by Year 7 that the clan has been the target of missionaries coming in and saying "convert or die" in a very transparent form. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 mai 2013 - 09:26 .

[In Exile]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
The Arlathvhens have been going on for centuries, yet only the Dalish and a handful of City Elves know about them.

Only a few people know about the Dalish to begin with, according to DA:O.

Mass production to me doesn't just mean hundreds in a single day.

No, but if all you're doing with them is using them as a means to keep in touch between nomadic clans, and keeping the numbers few so that they don't escape out of your control and others don't find out about them (e.g. one Eluvian per clan), then the actual benefit is limited, even if it's there

I'd argue that the Eluvian itself constitutes helping the Alienage Elves in its own form.  

How?

Though I am kinda pissed that Bioware decided to make Merrill incapable of healing when that was what DAO told us she could do. As if DAII didn't have enough gameplay/story segregation.

Yeah I'm not a fan of the arbitrary way DA2 handled talents. 

1) Merrill builds Eluvian
2) Eluvian works at say... year 4 of her time on the project.
 

Well, that was clearly out by Year 7 of failures. 

3) Merrill can then build another one in less time (you get faster building objects if they're precisely the same thing)

Assuming you can actually replicate building it, yes.

It could've saved Merrill's clan. You find out by Year 7 that the clan has been the target of missionaries coming in and saying "convert or die" in a very transparent form. 

It didn't work, even by Year 7. So it didn't save her clan, and her clan would have left with her. But Merrill refused to make that concession, because in the end she saw it as less important than the mirror. 

[TEWR]

So it didn't save her clan, and her clan would have left with her. But Merrill refused to make that concession, because in the end she saw it as less important than the mirror.

Marethari chose to remain. While part of Merrill's rationale was that she could save her clan, she never expected them to stay there after she left. She expected the clan to pack up and take as much as they could and get the hell out of there, if not move the aravels themselves.

I'm simply arguing on how it could've saved the clan. Merrill never once told the clan to stay there.

Only a few people know about the Dalish to begin with, according to DA:O.

And thus word would not leak out of multiple Eluvians in Dalish control, because it'd require

1) contact with the Dalish
2) seeing the Eluvian
3) seeing the Eluvian work
4) understanding what the hell it's supposed to be.

Not gonna be very easy.

No, but if all you're doing with them is using them as a means to keep in touch between nomadic clans, and keeping the numbers few so that they don't escape out of your control and others don't find out about them (e.g. one Eluvian per clan), then the actual benefit is limited, even if it's there

I don't think it's so limited. The halla example, the Darkspawn example, contacting another clan and saying "Hey, we found X! Great news!" or so on.

How?

morale boost, for starters. The Elves could use something from their own history to help them feel like they're a part of the world.

Well, that was clearly out by Year 7 of failures.

Hey, it's a 4000 year old artifact with barely any written down lore/research.

The fact that she managed to build a new Eluvian from scratch using what lore she could find and can sense the power that it contains -- literally, she can feel it inside. Not a hunch, but an actual knowledge of its power -- is pretty damn impressive.

It's not like Merrill has the book on the Eluvians that Ariane's clan had, complete with Morrigan's notes (that I'm sure she took down) and an Elven-English translation guide from the Circle.

Assuming you can actually replicate building it, yes.

DG said she built hers from scratch using a shard form the original as a baseplate to form a foundation on where to go off from, and did her research accordingly based on what she could find.

That quote's somewhere in the Merrill thread in the DAII section, IIRC.

And remember, the Scrying ritual was able to locate other Eluvians. So if another broken one was found, the shards could be taken and each shard used to build a new Eluvian.

[TEWR]

StreetMagic wrote...

I think Flemeth says everything people need to know about Merrill. It's not good or bad, but if anyone thinks Merrill is anything but stubborn and confused, they didn't play the same game.

Indeed, Flemeth says that Merrill is a very bright woman. Yet people continue to believe she's an idiot.

I'm sorry but if an otherworldly woman that can turn into a dragon and is fond of sarcasm says, quite seriously with absolutely no sarcasm in her voice, that Merrill is bright, I don't think any bit of "But but but... she's a dumb ditz!" is ever going to be valid.