265 réponses à ce sujet

[Wolfva2]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

1) Synthesis: combine people with machines, linking them together and forever stealing their identity and individuality.

Wrong.

Wolfva2 wrote...

4) Control:  Become the Lord High Controller of the Universe, the cycle continues but on your terms.

Wrong.

I agree that there is no "best choice," but you should at least understand what they all do before attempting to rank them.

Your well thought out argument poking holes in my assertions has shown me the error of my ways.  I only wish more people could be as erudite and ellegant as yourself, whose gleaming logic should stand astride the heavens as an example to a well thought out argument.
 
I'm being sarcastic in case you didn't notice.  You saying "wrong" doesn't prove a damn thing except you know how to spell 'wrong'.  If all you can do is passively aggressively pick an argument on teh intawebz, please go back to 4chan.  If you want to debate, here's a lesson.  You politely explain HOW the person is wrong, using actual data.  Then, I politely rebut your data, OR I go, "Oops, you're right, my bad."  OR, you just say, "Wrong" and I respond snarkily.  Gotta admit, the latter IS more fun.

[PsyrenY]

Wolfva2 wrote...
Your well thought out argument poking holes in my assertions has shown me the error of my ways.  I only wish more people could be as erudite and ellegant as yourself, whose gleaming logic should stand astride the heavens as an example to a well thought out argument.

You are the one making positive assertions, you must support them.

"Stealing their identity and individuality" - please support this assertion.

"The cycle continues" - please support this assertion.

Also, *elegant.

[Argolas]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Argolas wrote...


How so? All I heard about Control was that an AI based on Shepard will command the Reapers now instead of the Catalyst. Synthesis changes life in the way that Reapers consider it tolerable, that's appeasement.

If you take down an army by removing its leader from power, you have defeated that army.

Synthesis is for the galaxy's benefit, not the Reapers. That the Catalyst happens to agree with it is incidental. TIM agreed with taking down the Collectors, did you do it for him?

You don't remove the Catalyst, you replace it. This is what we learn: Shepard dies, a new entity is created. It is based in the Citadel, it is not organic, it has no connection to life but is aware of its existance, it commands the Reapers. It's the same, just with Shepard's thoughts uploaded.

Whether or not Synthesis benefits the galaxy is your headcanon. If I knew it was happening to me, I would shoot myself in the head as long as I still can. Synthesis is the only ending in which the people are not cheering... something terrible was just done to them...

[S.A.K]

Optimystic_X wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Heh! Try taming a shark yourself. Then come back and tell the results. Take pictures...

Mind = blown

Now let's try something a bit bigger and less gentle so we can relate to Reapers.


Umm, never mind.

[SpamBot2000]

So... another hostage taken to protect our Reaper overlords.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Argolas wrote...

And that's why I think that as great as it sounds and as much as it is worth trying, fighting the fear in ourself isn't the solution because it won't work for the masses.When what is terrorizing us is worth fighting, that's what we have to do.

... I was with ya up until about here.

Fear is precisely what tyrants -- like those who lead fascist movements -- prey on in people to support their cause.

It just leads to a vicious cycle of violence, as far as I'm concerned: one side is made to fear another and then fights them, which breeds fear on the other side and more fighting(...). The real bad-guys are the ones who manipulate us to fight ourselves.

Our culture is how we (humans) get a grip over our nature. And in that, YES, we do improve. It's a very slow rate of improvement, but it does happen nonetheless. We've overcome things like slavery in a very big way.

Again, we see it differently. I can accept that.

[PsyrenY]

S.A.K wrote...


Now let's try something a bit bigger and less gentle so we can relate to Reapers.

Hackett said "shark" not "great white shark." Not my fault he wasn't specific. :innocent:

[Tron Mega]

i dont discriminate.

i pick refuse.

[S.A.K]

Optimystic_X wrote...

S.A.K wrote...


Now let's try something a bit bigger and less gentle so we can relate to Reapers.

Hackett said "shark" not "great white shark." Not my fault he wasn't specific. :innocent:

I like this human.

[Arisugawa]

Auld Wulf wrote...

David7204 wrote...

She's beautiful...

But so is Shepard.

Not saying Shepard isn't. Not at all. But Shepard continues to exist in Control, eventually perhaps to a poitn where s/he could reconnect with her/his love interest. The same can't be said for EDI...

Shepard doesn't continue to exist in Control. Shepard dies in Control, and a synthetic intelligence based off of Shepard continues on. Superficially, it may appear to be the same thing, but it is not.

[PsyrenY]

Argolas wrote...


You don't remove the Catalyst, you replace it.

If you replace a car tire or a computer's motherboard, removing the old one is implicit.

Argolas wrote...

It's the same, just with Shepard's thoughts uploaded.

Thoughts matter. And we see the difference in the slides. The "Reapers" are no longer reaping, they are repairing the relays. (Perhaps we should call them "Repairers?")

Argolas wrote...

Whether or not Synthesis benefits the galaxy is your headcanon.

EDI's narrative and the slides suggest otherwise.

Argolas wrote...

Synthesis is the only ending in which the people are not cheering... something terrible was just done to them...

Synthesis is the only ending where:

- The Krogan city is completed
- The Quarians are unmasked, and cooperating with Geth
- Keiji and Kasumi are reunited
- EDI shows true empathy

These are wonderful things, not terrible.

[dreamgazer]

Optimystic_X wrote...

S.A.K wrote...


Now let's try something a bit bigger and less gentle so we can relate to Reapers.

Hackett said "shark" not "great white shark." Not my fault he wasn't specific. :innocent:

(laughs)

Yeah, I'm sure Hackett was referring to nurse sharks and the bonnetheads you find in aquarium petting areas.

[Argolas]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Argolas wrote...

And that's why I think that as great as it sounds and as much as it is worth trying, fighting the fear in ourself isn't the solution because it won't work for the masses.When what is terrorizing us is worth fighting, that's what we have to do.

... I was with ya up until about here.

Fear is precisely what tyrants -- like those who lead fascist movements -- prey on in people to support their cause.

It just leads to a vicious cycle of violence, as far as I'm concerned: one side is made to fear another and then fights them, which breeds fear on the other side and more fighting(...). The real bad-guys are the ones who manipulate us to fight ourselves.

Our culture is how we (humans) get a grip over our nature. And in that, YES, we do improve. It's a very slow rate of improvement, but it does happen nonetheless. We've overcome things like slavery in a very big way.

Again, we see it differently. I can accept that.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try to overcome our fears. By all means, everyone should try his or her hardest on that. If we were all heroes, we would have a great world.
But as long as it doesn't work, we have to face the facts. Most people haven't overcome their fear yet, and we can't make them, we can encourage everyone but they have to do this themselves. If all N.azi collaborateurs suddenly have had the courage to stop doing horrible things, the few who actually pushed would have had no power anymore at all. It would have been the perfect solution, everything bad just had stopped. Yet no such thing is possible, so Germany needed foreign armies to crush the N.azi reign. It's the by far worse solution since it claims many lives and rather tackles the symptome than the actual problem, but it had to be done regardless.

But I'm fine with agree to disagree.

Modifié par Argolas, 09 mai 2013 - 06:31 .

[PsyrenY]

dreamgazer wrote...

Yeah, I'm sure Hackett was referring to nurse sharks and the bonnetheads you find in aquarium petting areas.

*shrug*

A tame shark is a tame shark. And wrong Hackett is wrong.

[Avaraen]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Avaraen wrote...

You assume that appearance has anything to do with underlying reality.

It does actually, it's called "phenotype."

Mmhmm, and my point is that we don't know, and everything the Catalyst presents to us is open to interpretation. You can mold chocolate into anyt shape you like, but it's still chocolate. To me, the game indicates that synthesis transforms all DNA so it's identical. If that isn't homogenisation, I don't know what is.

And on that note, sleep. Also, remember this is a fictional reality to which we're applying our personal bias.

[wolfhowwl]

What joker calls love is in reality perversion.

Removing the object of his unnatural desires is for the best, both for joker and my unsettled stomach.

[PsyrenY]

Avaraen wrote...

To me, the game indicates that synthesis transforms all DNA so it's identical.

When you wake up, kindly quote the part of the game that says DNA will be identical.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

@Argolas -- fair enough!

You can mold chocolate into anyt shape you like, but it's still chocolate.

And it's also not homogenous with other chocolate that doesn't share its shape.

Or with varieties of a different color, or taste (white, milk, dark).

[dreamgazer]

Optimystic_X wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Yeah, I'm sure Hackett was referring to nurse sharks and the bonnetheads you find in aquarium petting areas.

*shrug*

A tame shark is a tame shark. And wrong Hackett is wrong.

To loopholes! Huzzah!

[PsyrenY]

wolfhowwl wrote...

What joker calls love is in reality perversion.

Removing the object of his unnatural desires is for the best, both for joker and my unsettled stomach.

I credit you for your honesty at least.

[Wolfva2]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...
Your well thought out argument poking holes in my assertions has shown me the error of my ways.  I only wish more people could be as erudite and ellegant as yourself, whose gleaming logic should stand astride the heavens as an example to a well thought out argument.

You are the one making positive assertions, you must support them.

"Stealing their identity and individuality" - please support this assertion.

"The cycle continues" - please support this assertion.

Also, *elegant.

BZZZZ!  I am sorry, but that is an incorrect answer.  Thank you for playing and better luck next time!

I stated my opinion.  You apparently believe you are some authority figure to whom I must prove myself.  You are not.  There is no need for me to 'prove' anything to you.  However, YOU are making a definitive declaration that I am wrong.  You are refusing, twice now, to provide any information at all whatsoever about HOW I am wrong.  Instead, you sit upon your lofty throne looking down your aquiline nose and in the imperious tone of a Ceasar you declare, "PROVE THYSELF TO MEEEE!"  Sorry spanky.  As Confucious once said, "You ain't sh*t".  You're just another lowly forum denizen like the rest of us.  Sorry if that hurts your ego.

Congratulations on catching me in a typo though.  I'm sure THAT inflated your ego to as before unseen heights.  Feel free to comb through this missive for more, I didn't bother spell checking just for you.

[Avaraen]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Avaraen wrote...

To me, the game indicates that synthesis transforms all DNA so it's identical.

When you wake up, kindly quote the part of the game that says DNA will be identical.

Ahh, too soon, I haven't slept yet. I swear, I'm going now, but I will leave you with this:

Catalyst: "Synthesis... add your energy to the crucible. Everything you are will be absorbed and then sent out. The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic life into a new framework. A new DNA...."



To me, that means all DNA will be the same, based on Shepard's DNA. Again. interpretation, because the game doesn't give us a clear answer. Now, regardless of what you think Synthesis does, I think we can agree it takes away choice, since everyone entered the battle with the goal to destroy the Reapers and never had a chance to agree to modifying themselves? What gives Shepard the right to make that choice and change everyone (homogenised or otherwise), because one guy gets his heart broken (per OP's professed motivation and given that no one else has the same emotional investment in synthetics)?

And now I really am shutting the computer off and I may not be able to log on for several days. Enjoy the discussion.

[PsyrenY]

New does not mean same. A new framework still allows for variation among individuals.

All DNA now is built from one framework - a single molecule, deoxyribonucleic acid. It still allows for many, many different variations, as we see around us every day.

Wolfva2 wrote...
You apparently believe you are some authority figure to whom I must prove myself.

I don't actually, but "this is what I believe and I don't have to tell you why I think that way, nyah nyah!" isn't much of an argument.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 09 mai 2013 - 05:57 .

[zed888]

I'm not interested in arguing for any particular ending, but the fate of any single person, Shepard or any crew member you want to name included, don't factor into the decision for me, metagaming or not. Yes I feel sorry for Joker in Destroy, but the problems of one little pilot don't amount to a hill of beans.

[Wolfva2]

Optimystic_X wrote...
I don't actually, but "this is what I believe and I don't have to tell you why I think that way, nyah nyah!" isn't much of an argument.

Intersting.  You demand that people explain themselves to YOU, yet you refuse to explain why YOU disagree with them.  What's even more interesting, is you feel justified in this. 

I made a statement.  You claim I am in error.  You NEVER explained the error.  You consistantly REFUSE to explain the error.  Thus, it seems the only issue here is you disagree, but don't know why.  But you are so pompous that you believe YOUR opinion trumps everyone elses, and you feel that we should all blindly believe in YOUR opinion.  You see nothing wrong with this mindset.  Truly amazing, in a sadly pitiful way.

This whole spat between us has nothing to do with me saying  "this is what I believe and I don't have to tell you why I think that way, nyah nyah!"  Besides the fact that I never actually said that, it has to do with me stating a hypothesis, and YOU saying, "Wrong", without explaining HOW it's wrong.  THAT is arogance defined.