265 réponses à ce sujet

[PsyrenY]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Intersting.  You demand that people explain themselves to YOU, yet you refuse to explain why YOU disagree with them.  What's even more interesting, is you feel justified in this. 

Again, YOU are the one making positive assertions.

"Stealing their identity and individuality" - how can we have a discussion about this unless you share why you feel this way?

"The cycle continues" - the post-Stargazer epilogue statement clearly states otherwise, so something must make you feel this way. But you won't share what that is.

There can be no rational discourse, no debate, with walls like this in the way.

[Yestare7]

Auld Wulf wrote...

I've often tried to explain with Destroy that why I can't do it isn't only because of the evils presented by killing so many, but also by the souls torn asunder by this action. Most notably that of Jeff Moreau. I haven't had the will to put to words why I feel the way I do, as I always felt it should have been entirely all too obvious -- obvious that you're not just harming synthetics with this. And why I could never bring myself to do this to Jeff.

This explains it better than I ever could. So have a read of that and come back here.

EDI had become Jeff's raison d'etre, his centre, his very life. When you snuff out EDI, you snuff out Jeff's will to live. Destroy is a dark place, a very dark place. The Mass Effect Universe would be a bleak and depressing place without him, and if you take EDI away from him, then he surely won't be long for this world. This is, indeed, Joker's punchline.

Discuss.

First of all, it's nice to read a post where you don't insult anyone, good job.

Second, this is about ONE man's affection for a robot. In the reaper war, millions lose their loved one, families are ripped apart. I care for Joker and Edi, but not enough to change my mind about Destroy.

Third, he'll proly find a lovely nurse in the hospital -> problem fixed.

Auld Wulf wrote... The Mass Effect Universe would be a bleak and depressing place without him

I disagree. He's most likely not in ME4, will that be a bleak and depressing place? 

Y

Modifié par Yestare7, 09 mai 2013 - 06:50 .

[Wolfva2]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

Intersting.  You demand that people explain themselves to YOU, yet you refuse to explain why YOU disagree with them.  What's even more interesting, is you feel justified in this. 

Again, YOU are the one making positive assertions.

"Stealing their identity and individuality" - how can we have a discussion about this unless you share why you feel this way?

"The cycle continues" - the post-Stargazer epilogue statement clearly states otherwise, so something must make you feel this way. But you won't share what that is.

There can be no rational discourse, no debate, with walls like this in the way.

Wrong.




Or, at least if I was you that's how I'd respond.  Then, if you asked how you were wrong I would go on and on about how YOU MUST explain yourself fully and in exacting detail to my specific specifications and yadda yadda yadda.  

The only reason I would have to justify what I said is if YOU actually provided a counter.  You refuse to provide counters.  Instead, you demand that I fully explain why I feel the way I do.  You demand that I explain myself to YOU.  As if your opinion mattered in any way shape manner or form.  It does not. 

You claim I'm wrong.  Explain HOW I'm wrong.  Or drop the subject.  But stop being a hypocrit.  Or, continue.  Although I'm sure most everyone else is getting as bored by your pedantry as I am.

[AlexMBrennan]

One guy is a tragedy, but don't you think that there are more important considerations when making decisions of this scope? People dying is inevitably part of war, and making a choice to save one random person (EDI or Shepard's LI or Joe Random bystander) would rather dishonour the sacrifices of the million others who have died in the war.

[PsyrenY]

 

Wolfva2 wrote...


The only reason I would have to justify what I said is if YOU actually provided a counter.

The burden is on the affirmative - that is how debates work. What you're doing is saying "the moon is made of green cheese," and in response to my "no, it's not" saying "prove to me that the sun isn't made of green cheese or you're a hypocrite."

But if only to stop the endless back and forth I'll go ahead.

"Stealing their identity and individuality" - From the slides we can clearly see that Synthesis does not do this - every squadmate shown still has their own individual personality and things that matter to them. We see Jack teaching her class (or mourning her students, depending on the choice made there) - the people who mattered the most to her. We see Kasumi reuniting with Keiji, the person who matters most to her. We see the Krogan having children and rebuilding their society, doing the things that matter most to them. With no identity, wouldn't we see them all doing the same things? With no individuality, wouldn't they all look the same?

"The cycle continues":

http://www.therpf.co...8189d1332460289

The Reaper threat is ended, therefore the cycle is broken. Thus, the cycle cannot have continued.

Your rebuttal sir.

[SpamBot2000]

The Reaper threat is ended because there are no organic life forms for them to threaten anymore.

[PsyrenY]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

The Reaper threat is ended because there are no organic life forms for them to threaten anymore.

You get that message with Destroy and Control too actually. (And I was responding to Control with that, not Synthesis.)

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 09 mai 2013 - 07:26 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

So the worth of EDI's life is measured by Joker's dick?

Forreal?

This is exactly what I was talking about.

Edit:

Yo, I knew I had this f*ckass conversation before.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 09 mai 2013 - 07:38 .

[Wolfva2]

Now see Optimystic? Was that so hard? You disagree with someone, you state the reason WHY you disagree. You don't snidely say they're wrong, then demand they explain themselves. Had you written the above, instead of resisting all attempts to do so for 2 pages, I would have responded with, " ". Because frankly I could not care less. You have your opinion, I have mine.

But, since you finally DID actually respond as a person interested in DEBATE as opposed to demagoguery, I'll respond. As I recall, synthesis makes you part of a group mind. Group minds do not allow for individuality. Regardless of what the epilogue states. Perhaps they continue with their lives out of inertia. But once the group mind takes hold, that would end. There is no reason for Jack to teach a class if information is shared in a group mind, after all. If anything, the epilogue shows some of the 'weak' writing people complain about. Kasumi and Keiji? HOW could they reunite? He's dead. All that's left is a recording of his engrams. Guess he was a Scientologist, but I digress. Krogan babies with synthetics grafted to their heads? I feel sorry for that kid as it grows, that'll be painful.

Bottom line, ME is a story, based on science FICTION. It's designed to be entertainment, not history. For me, group mind=baaad. For you? Maybe it's good. Maybe not. I really don't care. Your opinion on the matter has no bearing on my enjoyment of the medium, nor my own thoughts on the endings. What I DO care about is someone not blaisely claiming another OPINION is wrong and then insisting the other person explain himself while demanding his opinion be fully accepted.

What I also don't apparently care about is sentences that makes sense...that last one is confusing even me....

[Yestare7]

Random Jerkface wrote...

So the worth of EDI's life is measured by Joker's d!ck?

LOL

Modifié par Yestare7, 09 mai 2013 - 07:51 .

[shodiswe]

David7204 wrote...

You never know. Has anyone ever actually tried to bring an AI back? Really tried? I doubt it. Why would they? Besides, Miranda and Tali need something to do with their time. Plus, there's all that Reaper tech lying around.

Reasoning suggests the Reapers would rebuild themselves after each cycle. Wouldn't that also suggest that they can rebuild a 'unique' AI once they have a template? Which would suggest such a thing is possible for Shepard.

Were told Shepard wasnt that dead just dead enough to be considrred dead by most doctors..
I guess it depends how dead the AI is...
I wonder if miranda inherits her fathers money, that Asari mercenary on Ilium said he was the richest person in the galaxy.. He probably took her out of his will though. Especialy considering the fact that she did kill him. Though I guess people wouldn't have to know that last part... Even if he had it comming.

[Wolfva2]

Yestare7 wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

So the worth of EDI's life is measured by Joker's d!ck?

LOL

Gods let's hope not!  After all, he's got brittle boner desease....

[PsyrenY]

Wolfva2 wrote...


But, since you finally DID actually respond as a person interested in DEBATE as opposed to demagoguery, I'll respond.

Now who's being pompous? :innocent:

Wolfva2 wrote...

As I recall, synthesis makes you part of a group mind. Group minds do not allow for individuality.

You have no source for either of these statements. And you even countered yourself by referring to Jack teaching a class post-Synthesis.

Wolfva2 wrote...

Kasumi and Keiji? HOW could they reunite? He's dead.

This is just lack of imagination. His entire mind is stored in that box; recreating a person from their stored mind is a staple of science fiction.

Wolfva2 wrote...

I really don't care. Your opinion on the matter has no bearing on my enjoyment of the medium, nor my own thoughts on the endings.

I figured I was wasting my time. Thanks anyway.

[AlexMBrennan]

You have no source for either of these statements. And you even countered yourself by referring to Jack teaching a class post-Synthesis.

Then please explain why else all the fighting would immediately stop? There's a certain amount of inertia to conflict (we kill them because they killed us because we killed them...) so that behaviour is certainly not human, thus it's not unreasonable to conjecture some kind of brainwashing or hive mind took place.

This is just lack of imagination. His entire mind is stored in that box; recreating a person from their stored mind is a staple of science fiction.

Yes, anything any sci-fi writer wrote ever is now canon. Brilliant argument.

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 09 mai 2013 - 08:10 .

[PsyrenY]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

You have no source for either of these statements. And you even countered yourself by referring to Jack teaching a class post-Synthesis.

Then please explain why else all the fighting would immediately stop? There's a certain amount of inertia to conflict (we kill them because they killed us because we killed them...) so that behaviour is certainly not human, thus it's not unreasonable to conjecture some kind of brainwashing or hive mind took place.

This is just lack of imagination. His entire mind is stored in that box; recreating a person from their stored mind is a staple of science fiction.

Yes, anything any sci-fi writer wrote ever is now canon. Brilliant argument.

1) During the Rannoch climax, the Geth and Quarians immediately stopped too. Are they a hive-mind?

2) Not canon. Imagination.

[S.A.K]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Yestare7 wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

So the worth of EDI's life is measured by Joker's d!ck?

LOL

Gods let's hope not!  After all, he's got brittle boner desease....

Iseewhatyoudidthere.

[CosmicGnosis]

Look at the Synthesis slides. Compare the actions of the characters to their actions in the other endings. If you claim that they have been brainwashed or have lost their individuality, then you are being blatantly dishonest. You are deliberately ignoring evidence in order to support a preconceived conclusion.

I know that Synthesis is an uncomfortable ending, particularly in the way that it is achieved. Wouldn't it be more interesting, though, to accept that Synthesis does not destroy individuality, and then ask, "Is it still worth it?" Even if Synthesis really is as great as it seems, is the forced transformation of all life in the galaxy simply beyond justification? If your answer is yes, then you are rejecting a particular path to a glorious future in the hope that you will find a more ethical way of achieving it. I think it's an interesting ethical dilemma. Some might even say that rejecting Synthesis is unethical; if you can achieve a great future now, why should you delay it? These are interesting questions, but people want to avoid them entirely by casting Synthesis in a dishonest light.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 09 mai 2013 - 08:35 .

[PsyrenY]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Look at the Synthesis slides. Compare the actions of the characters to their actions in the other endings. If you claim that they have been brainwashed or have lost their individuality, then you are being blatantly dishonest. You are deliberately ignoring evidence to support a preconceived conclusion.

I know that Synthesis is an uncomfortable ending, particularly in the way that it is achieved. Wouldn't it be more interesting, though, to accept that Synthesis does not destroy individuality, and then ask, "Is it still worth it?" Even if Synthesis really is as great as it seems, is the forced transformation of all life in the galaxy simply beyond justification? If your answer is yes, then you are rejecting a particular path to a glorious future in the hope that you will find a more ethical way of achieving it. I think it's an interesting ethical dilemma. Some might even say that rejecting Synthesis is unethical; if you can achieve a great future now, why should you delay it? These are interesting questions, but people want to avoid them entirely by casting Synthesis in a dishonest light.

Wonderfully stated.

[Astartes Marine]

Auld Wulf wrote...
Most notably that of Jeff Moreau.

The pain of ONE man is INSIGNIFICANT next to the galaxy at war.

Auld Wulf wrote...
The Mass Effect Universe would be a bleak and
depressing place without him

I don't know I think it may actually improve.

[Zazzerka]

Sad comic. But where did everybody go? Why aren't they helping Joker with the body?

[What a Succulent Ass]

Astartes Marine wrote...

I don't know I think it may actually improve.

I see no lies here.

[Wolfva2]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...


But, since you finally DID actually respond as a person interested in DEBATE as opposed to demagoguery, I'll respond.

Now who's being pompous? :innocent:

Wolfva2 wrote...

As I recall, synthesis makes you part of a group mind. Group minds do not allow for individuality.

You have no source for either of these statements. And you even countered yourself by referring to Jack teaching a class post-Synthesis.

Wolfva2 wrote...

Kasumi and Keiji? HOW could they reunite? He's dead.

This is just lack of imagination. His entire mind is stored in that box; recreating a person from their stored mind is a staple of science fiction.

Wolfva2 wrote...

I really don't care. Your opinion on the matter has no bearing on my enjoyment of the medium, nor my own thoughts on the endings.

I figured I was wasting my time. Thanks anyway.

1) Never claimed I wasn't pompous.  Frankly, I'd assume my writing style game me away.
2) Thought I've made it clear several times I'm talking about my OPINION; not canonical hard facts.  Since I don't care enough to actually do the proper research, I'll stick to my opinion.  My referring to Jack was in reference to your referring to Jack, and does not contradict me.  Well, yeah, I guess it DOES contradict me if you cut that one part of the statement out of the whole paragraph, omitting the part about inertia.  But generally speaking, it's not considered a contradiction if YOU have to alter or edit someone else's comments to make it look like a contradiction.
3) Yeah...the engrams of a man at the time they're recorded are the sum of that person.  Ok, I guess so.  UP TO THAT POINT.  The construct she's with wouldn't be able to grow; it's just a recording.  She's hanging with the ME equivalent of a 'RealDoll' based on Keiji's body, with a recording of his brain.  Creeeeepy.
4) And yet, you continue to waste your time.  Guess you must be as bored as I am.  However, that statement DOES shed light into your ego.  You honestly DO expect people to trust in your opinion over their own, don't you?  You think YOUR opinion should have bearing over other people, and how they feel about the game.  How odd.

Modifié par Wolfva2, 09 mai 2013 - 09:20 .

[PsyrenY]

Wolfva2 wrote...

And yet, you continue to waste your time.  Guess you must be as bored as I am

Loading screens. =/

[Wolfva2]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...

And yet, you continue to waste your time.  Guess you must be as bored as I am

Loading screens. =/

Heh, for that you get 10 points <LOL>.