826 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

Yeah I don't care about the politics. At the end of the day, the Geth needed it or the Quarians would kill them. From an in-story perspective, that is a perfectly logical reason.
RC = You live
No RC = You die

[S.A.K]

essarr71 wrote...

It's a betrayal if only because Legion doesn't explain the reasoning for the shift in philosophy. But hey.. that's consistent with the narrative of ME3: a lot of "you guys can figure this out yourselves, ya?"

It is a betrayal because the whole idea of Orthodox Geth is founded on that philosophy Legion explains in ME2. It was the reason Heretics and Orthodox Geth split in the first place resulting in the Death/brain washing of all Heretics. In ME2, Legion was all about making their own future and how accepting other's technology blinds you to alternetives. In ME3 it's upload Reaper tech or death. Legion and the rest of the Geth betrayed themselves.

P.s : Does it change anything if Shepard don't destroy/rewrite Heretics and they are left to use their virus on Orthodox Geth?

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

Yeah I don't care about the politics. At the end of the day, the Geth needed it or the Quarians would kill them. From an in-story perspective, that is a perfectly logical reason.
RC = You live
No RC = You die

And like I told you it's binary thinking. Geth could have figured out another way to survive if they just took some time to think about it before siding with Reapers.

Also there is nothing to prove Geth didn't have an agreement with Reapers before even the Quarians got there.

Edit : Someone actaully respecting their principles would explore every alternetive or even fight to the death before betraying themselves.

Modifié par S.A.K, 12 mai 2013 - 04:19 .

[Wayning_Star]

S.A.K wrote...

remydat wrote...

Yeah I don't care about the politics. At the end of the day, the Geth needed it or the Quarians would kill them. From an in-story perspective, that is a perfectly logical reason.
RC = You live
No RC = You die

And like I told you it's binary thinking. Geth could have figured out another way to survive if they just took some time to think about it before siding with Reapers.

Also there is nothing to prove Geth didn't have an agreement with Reapers before even the Quarians got there.

Edit : Someone actaully respecting their principles would explore every alternetive or even fight to the death before betraying themselves.

I always thought it strange that the council pretty much ignores the threat of the quarian/geth thing. They ignore a lot of stuff, but they sent ships to destroy geth, with the alliance forces as well. Humans seem to follow the status quo too much in these squabbles? No one actually can have an understanding with reaperships, their only purpose is harvest, born of the catalyst and it's Leviathan induced protocols... organics cannot find their hiney's with both hands in the MEU, or so it seems?

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

And like I told you it's binary thinking. Geth could have figured out another way to survive if they just took some time to think about it before siding with Reapers.

Also there is nothing to prove Geth didn't have an agreement with Reapers before even the Quarians got there.

Edit : Someone actaully respecting their principles would explore every alternetive or even fight to the death before betraying themselves.

And like I told you the Geth are ficitional characters.  The writers wrote them as having no other alternatives.  They can't just imagine an alternative that the writers never wanted them to have.  They don't have time, they are becoming extinct.  That is what the game tells me.

Tali's dialogue that Legion told her AFTER THE ATTACK that the Geth were having trouble reaching consensus is all the proof I need.  There is nothing AFTER THE ATTACK that the Geth would have trouble reaching consensus on except whether to ally with the Reapers so the alliance was AFTER THE ATTACK. 

The Geth pinciples dictate self perservation and killing the a**holes that tried to exterminate them trumps their desire to improve on their own.  It trumps it for one very good reason.  You can't improve on your own when your entire f**king species is dead.  You are acting like the Geth just had this one desire (to improve on their own) and that said desire should trump all other desires.  It does not.  The one desire that trumps all other desires for most sentient beings is the desire for they and their species TO SURVIVE.  I will quote Javik here.

Stand amongst the ash of billions of dead Geth and ask the ghosts if their principles matter.

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

It is a betrayal because the whole idea of Orthodox Geth is founded on that philosophy Legion explains in ME2. It was the reason Heretics and Orthodox Geth split in the first place resulting in the Death/brain washing of all Heretics. In ME2, Legion was all about making their own future and how accepting other's technology blinds you to alternetives. In ME3 it's upload Reaper tech or death. Legion and the rest of the Geth betrayed themselves.

P.s : Does it change anything if Shepard don't destroy/rewrite Heretics and they are left to use their virus on Orthodox Geth?

Nope the whole idea of Orthodox Geth is that they will kill to perserve themselves.  That was proven in the MW and that desire trumps all others.  Perhaps the Quarians should have learned the Geth will do anything to survive when they killed billions of Quarians to prove it. You just want to ignore that desire for self perservation because you want the Geth dead.  

 

Modifié par remydat, 12 mai 2013 - 06:20 .

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

It is a betrayal because the whole idea of Orthodox Geth is founded on that philosophy Legion explains in ME2. It was the reason Heretics and Orthodox Geth split in the first place resulting in the Death/brain washing of all Heretics. In ME2, Legion was all about making their own future and how accepting other's technology blinds you to alternetives. In ME3 it's upload Reaper tech or death. Legion and the rest of the Geth betrayed themselves.

P.s : Does it change anything if Shepard don't destroy/rewrite Heretics and they are left to use their virus on Orthodox Geth?

Nope the whole idea of Orthodox Geth is that they will kill to perserve themselves.  That was proven in the MW and that desire trumps all others.  Perhaps the Quarians should have learned the Geth will do anything to survive when they killed billions of Quarians to prove it. You just want to ignore that desire for self perservation because you want the Geth dead.  

You should talk to Legion next time you play ME2...

[remydat]

Yes I spoke to Legion quite a bit and I understand the Geth have more than one set of principles and goals.  When those goals and principles conflict sentient species tend to pick the one (self perservation) that allows them to continue to have goals and principles.

A dead species can't improve themsleves.  I think this is a universal fact that I have never seen defeated.  If you have, please let me know.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

And like I told you it's binary thinking. Geth could have figured out another way to survive if they just took some time to think about it before siding with Reapers.

Also there is nothing to prove Geth didn't have an agreement with Reapers before even the Quarians got there.

Edit : Someone actaully respecting their principles would explore every alternetive or even fight to the death before betraying themselves.

And like I told you the Geth are ficitional characters.  The writers wrote them as having no other alternatives.  They can't just imagine an alternative that the writers never wanted them to have.  They don't have time, they are becoming extinct.  That is what the game tells me.

Tali's dialogue that Legion told her AFTER THE ATTACK that the Geth were having trouble reaching consensus is all the proof I need.  There is nothing AFTER THE ATTACK that the Geth would have trouble reaching consensus on except whether to ally with the Reapers so the alliance was AFTER THE ATTACK. 

The Geth pinciples dictate self perservation and killing the a**holes that tried to exterminate them trumps their desire to improve on their own.  It trumps it for one very good reason.  You can't improve on your own when your entire f**king species is dead.  You are acting like the Geth just had this one desire (to improve on their own) and that said desire should trump all other desires.  It does not.  The one desire that trumps all other desires for most sentient beings is the desire for they and their species TO SURVIVE.  I will quote Javik here.

Stand amongst the ash of billions of dead Geth and ask the ghosts if their principles matter.

Nope. Legion told you so and you believed it. The writer left enough unexplained for the player to think about. And you are treating this like a binary situation to justify Geth's actions.

P.s : The Geth ghosts will say it matters because Shepard killed them for betraying those principles. You are making the Geth look like the worst ****s ever.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

Yes I spoke to Legion quite a bit and I understand the Geth have more than one set of principles and goals.  When those goals and principles conflict sentient species tend to pick the one (self perservation) that allows them to continue to have goals and principles.

A dead species can't improve themsleves.  I think this is a universal fact that I have never seen defeated.  If you have, please let me know.

It doesn't look like you know what principles are. Self-preservation is an instinct, not a principle. And by droping your principles, you betray those principles which the Geth did.

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

It doesn't look like you know what principles are. Self-preservation is an instinct, not a principle. And by droping your principles, you betray those principles which the Geth did.

Nope it is both an instinct and principle.  A dog does not make a conscious decision to reproduce so that it's species will survive.  It does so because it is hardwired to do so.  It is an instinct for them.  A human has the conscious ability to follow the instinct or reject it.  In making that decision it ultimately converts that instinct into a principle that guides its life or not.

If I consciously decide to value my life over all othey principles I may have then that is the overriding principle of my life.  This is similar to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs in psychology in which physiological and safety needs must be met first before you can concern yourself with Self-Actualization needs ie improving oneself.  Hence why it is structured as a pyramid.  Self Actualization is meaningless if you don't actully survive to achieve it.  That's not my opinion, that is the opinion of various psychologists.

http://en.wikipedia....rarchy_of_needs

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

Nope. Legion told you so and you believed it. The writer left enough unexplained for the player to think about. And you are treating this like a binary situation to justify Geth's actions.

P.s : The Geth ghosts will say it matters because Shepard killed them for betraying those principles. You are making the Geth look like the worst ****s ever.

Legion told Tali long before I entered the picture as Tali said and then he told me after the fact when I finally met him.  I can put two and two together.  I am treating this like the writer's intended me to treat it.  If you want to go off on your head canon then you are free to do so but trying to chastise me because I refuse to head canon seems odd to me.

P.S. You are not a Geth, you can't pretend to know what the Geth ghosts will say.  The Geth already answered this question in game by decided to value self perservation over self actualization which any person who has studied psychology would recognize as consistent with maslow's hierarchy of needs.

Choosing self actualization over self perservation when the former would lead to the extinction of your entire species goes against psychology and is the product of an irrational mind.  The Geth are not irrational.  Logic dictates they choose the latter.  As an organic with an irrational mind, you are free to value self actualization over self perservation but any species who has ever done that in human history no longer exists so not sure what good it did them.  Did they get a cookie for choosing extermination?

Modifié par remydat, 12 mai 2013 - 08:05 .

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

Nope. Legion told you so and you believed it.

And you choose to disbelieve what a character says in the game so that you can ignore the information his gives that proves your Geth betrayal theory.

[Wayning_Star]

I always thought Legion was an ambassador of sorts between organics and synthetics. Got really interested in the 'lore' of Shepard,eventually sought Shep out to find them dead, but then Shep gets rebooted, so Legion contacts Shep, an organic machine of varying qualities.. like a Geth, only different.

Intellect isn't evolutionary, its learned through intellect... Thumbs are evolutionary, the brain is supposed to be..but..

lol

[BeastSaver]

Exile Isan wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...
- Let a lot of geth die.

If the geth loose a lot of programs they will no longer be as intelligent as they are now, they have the possiblity of going back to being simple VI's again. Legion, and all the other geth I'm sure, do not want that. Legion mentions that this kinda happened when the quarians destroyed the megastructure that the geth were building, they lost a lot of programs which dimmed their intelligence. The geth have self preservation insticts just like organics and they decided that siding with the Reapers and being their slaves was prefereable to extiction. I think this also made Legion realized that being a collective intelligence is not the strength he thought it was. All the Reaper code does is make each geth program an individual with independent intelligence.

^ This.

When the geth's intelligence is dimmed because of the massive destruction of programs uploaded into the dyson sphere, they become more instinctually driven. They were planning on fighting the reapers until the quarians decided to attack them.

Also, a lot of people here seem to be confusing reaper CODE with reaper TECH. These are two different things. One is written into programming, the other is physically installed.

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Nope. Legion told you so and you believed it.

And you choose to disbelieve what a character says in the game so that you can ignore the information his gives that proves your Geth betrayal theory.

What Legion said doesn't make sense. And Geth betraying their own principles is not a theory of mine. If Legion can't even be true to thier own principles how can I trust it?

Modifié par S.A.K, 13 mai 2013 - 04:41 .

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

What Legion said doesn't make sense. And Geth betraying their own principles is not a theory of mine. If Legion can't even be true to thier own principles how can I trust it?

- The Geth has a self-preservation instinct (shown by the Morning War).
- The Quarians attack the sphere and destroy a huge amount of their programs.
- Geth intelligence drops.
- Instincts kick in.
- Ask Reapers for Reaper Code so that they don't lose their intelligence and have a chance to live.

It's logical, it follows in-game lore from ME1 and 2 and makes sense.

Modifié par Morlath, 13 mai 2013 - 04:51 .

[remydat]

Morlath wrote...

- The Geth has a self-preservation instinct (shown by the Morning War).
- The Quarians attack the sphere and destroy a huge amount of their programs.
- Geth intelligence drops.
- Instincts kick in.
- Ask Reapers for Reaper Code so that they don't lose their intelligence and have a chance to live.

It's logical, it follows in-game lore from ME1 and 2 and makes sense.

And as pointed out it follows Maslow's Hierarchy of needs.  Physiological and Safety needs have to be met before a thinking being can concern itself with Self Actualization needs.  You cannot self actualize if your species is dead.

Basically people want the Geth to act outside of what Psychology tells us is an accepted framework for conscious thought.

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

What Legion said doesn't make sense. And Geth betraying their own principles is not a theory of mine. If Legion can't even be true to thier own principles how can I trust it?

- The Geth has a self-preservation instinct (shown by the Morning War).
- The Quarians attack the sphere and destroy a huge amount of their programs.
- Geth intelligence drops.
- Instincts kick in.
- Ask Reapers for Reaper Code so that they don't lose their intelligence and have a chance to live.

It's logical, it follows in-game lore from ME1 and 2 and makes sense.

"Makes sense" doesn't mean they are trustworthy. By allying with Reapers they essencially became Heretics. That also doesn't mean Legion was telling the truth and it doesn't mean Geth couldn't have allied with Reapers earlier than Legion said. Legion, who is just 1183 programs has the intelligence to figure out Reaper alliance is a bad idea. Geth were also pretty damn fast to side with Reapers and it doesn't look like they explored any alternetives in those 17 days. And It doesn't mean they didn't betray themselves.

Are you guys done trying to justify every wrong Geth ever did? Genocide? Lying? Allying with Reapers? Almost forcing the Quarians into war? Everything the Heretics did? Making an enemy out of every organic?

Killing the Geth is safer for everyone.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

S.A.K wrote...

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

What Legion said doesn't make sense. And Geth betraying their own principles is not a theory of mine. If Legion can't even be true to thier own principles how can I trust it?

- The Geth has a self-preservation instinct (shown by the Morning War).
- The Quarians attack the sphere and destroy a huge amount of their programs.
- Geth intelligence drops.
- Instincts kick in.
- Ask Reapers for Reaper Code so that they don't lose their intelligence and have a chance to live.

It's logical, it follows in-game lore from ME1 and 2 and makes sense.

"Makes sense" doesn't mean they are trustworthy. By allying with Reapers they essencially became Heretics. That also doesn't mean Legion was telling the truth and it doesn't mean Geth couldn't have allied with Reapers earlier than Legion said. Legion, who is just 1183 programs has the intelligence to figure out Reaper alliance is a bad idea. Geth were also pretty damn fast to side with Reapers and it doesn't look like they explored any alternetives in those 17 days. And It doesn't mean they didn't betray themselves.

Are you guys done trying to justify every wrong Geth ever did? Genocide? Lying? Allying with Reapers? Almost forcing the Quarians into war? Everything the Heretics did? Making an enemy out of every organic?

Killing the Geth is safer for everyone.

Throw it out the airlock.

[DeinonSlayer]

S.A.K wrote...

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

What Legion said doesn't make sense. And Geth betraying their own principles is not a theory of mine. If Legion can't even be true to thier own principles how can I trust it?

- The Geth has a self-preservation instinct (shown by the Morning War).
- The Quarians attack the sphere and destroy a huge amount of their programs.
- Geth intelligence drops.
- Instincts kick in.
- Ask Reapers for Reaper Code so that they don't lose their intelligence and have a chance to live.

It's logical, it follows in-game lore from ME1 and 2 and makes sense.

"Makes sense" doesn't mean they are trustworthy. By allying with Reapers they essencially became Heretics. That also doesn't mean Legion was telling the truth and it doesn't mean Geth couldn't have allied with Reapers earlier than Legion said. Legion, who is just 1183 programs has the intelligence to figure out Reaper alliance is a bad idea. Geth were also pretty damn fast to side with Reapers and it doesn't look like they explored any alternetives in those 17 days. And It doesn't mean they didn't betray themselves.

Are you guys done trying to justify every wrong Geth ever did? Genocide? Lying? Allying with Reapers? Almost forcing the Quarians into war? Everything the Heretics did? Making an enemy out of every organic?

Killing the Geth is safer for everyone.

Many good points. Just because we understand the motives for some of the things they've done doesn't mean we're in any way obligated to agree with them. It comes down to personal judgement.

[KiwiQuiche]

Kinda. But then, everyone was acting like retards in ME3 so it's no surprise the Geth went full retard as well.

Sometimes it makes you wonder why the hell you are even trying to save the galaxy since everyone is so damn stupid.

[DeinonSlayer]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Kinda. But then, everyone was acting like retards in ME3 so it's no surprise the Geth went full retard as well.

Sometimes it makes you wonder why the hell you are even trying to save the galaxy since everyone is so damn stupid.

Very true. TIM takes the crown in that department, though... okay, maybe Udina. Or Leng. Or... goddammit, I can't decide.

[remydat]

SAK,

Killing the Quarians is safer for the galaxy as well. There wouldn't be a Geth problem if their creators weren't so damn stupid.

1. Monumentally screwed up and created an AI.

2. Decided they would create billions of these things and give them all the ability to kill.

3. Were too stupid to realise that billions of these things were becoming sentient.

4. Made them an enemy of the galaxy by trying to kill them.

5. Were too stupid to actually do the job right probably because they created billions of these things and gave them all the abilty to kill.

6. Decided to start a war amidst a galactic apocalypse.

7. Decided to put guns on their kids homes instead of having a talk with the Geth over the coms that Tali and Legion were using.

8. Failed to plan for the possibilty that the Geth would ally with the Super Machines that some of them allied with in ME1.

9. Risked trillions of lives and the war against the reapers by firing on a ship containing allies critical in the reaper war.

10. Can't follow orders.

The history of incompetence is epic. For the safety of the galaxy we cannot allow their incompetence to put the galaxy at risk any longer. Let's just kill Gherel, Xen, and the heavy fleet goons and see if that solves the problem.

Modifié par remydat, 13 mai 2013 - 04:01 .

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

SAK,

Killing the Quarians is safer for the galaxy as well. There wouldn't be a Geth problem if their creators weren't so damn stupid.

1. Monumentally screwed up and created an AI.

2. Decided they would create billions of these things and give them all the ability to kill.

3. Were too stupid to realise that billions of these things were becoming sentient.

4. Made them an enemy of the galaxy by trying to kill them.

5. Were too stupid to actually do the job right probably because they created billions of these things and gave them all the abilty to kill.

6. Decided to start a war amidst a galactic apocalypse.

7. Decided to put guns on their kids homes instead of having a talk with the Geth over the coms that Tali and Legion were using.

8. Failed to plan for the possibilty that the Geth would ally with the Super Machines that some of them allied with in ME1.

9. Risked trillions of lives and the war against the reapers by firing on a ship containing allies critical in the reaper war.

10. Can't follow orders.

The history of incompetence is epic. For the safety of the galaxy we cannot allow their incompetence to put the galaxy at risk any longer. Let's just kill Gherel, Xen, and the heavy fleet goons and see if that solves the problem.