826 réponses à ce sujet

[S.A.K]

@remydat, you know you just proven my point right?

[remydat]

Sak,

Did I lie about something? I think it is pretty obvious that accidentally creating something that kills billions of your people and then starting a war that ultimately results in your extinction in some playthroughs is stupid. What else should I call it? Progress?

You guys love to throw stones but then resort to namecalling when I hit your glass house.  It is 100% fact the Quarians actions have threantened the galaxy.

Modifié par remydat, 13 mai 2013 - 05:12 .

[remydat]

I tell you what, let's run a thought experiment. Let's say everyone got to vote for war or for peace talks. Let's say after the first round of voting we could tell exactly who voted war and who voted peace. I am perfectly happy if we rounded up all the war mongers on both sides and imprisoned or executed them for being an impediment to peace and thus left the peace oriented Geth and peace oriented Quarians to work things out.

I suspect the Quarian lovers will find some excuse why the Xen's and Gherel's of the world should not be punished but the Geth that voted like them should die. And therein lies the difference IMO. I have no problem punishing war mongers. I simply expect that punishment to apply to both sides. The question is do you?  A geth who initially voted no but ultimately gave in to the consensus is no different than Tali and Koris voting no but ultimately giving in to the Quarian consensus.

Modifié par remydat, 13 mai 2013 - 06:06 .

[nos_astra]

remydat wrote...

Sak,

Did I lie about something? I think it is pretty obvious that accidentally creating something that kills billions of your people and then starting a war that ultimately results in your extinction in some playthroughs is stupid. What else should I call it? Progress?

You guys love to throw stones but then resort to namecalling when I hit your glass house.  It is 100% fact the Quarians actions have threantened the galaxy.

That sounds a lot like the Leviathans. What a unique way of characterizing a faction of several millions of beings.

Let me think for a moment: the Council, the Alliance, the asari, Cerberus.

Modifié par klarabella, 13 mai 2013 - 06:10 .

[remydat]

Is there any doubt the Leviathans were stupid? First rule of creating an AI is typically don't kill me under any circumstances Mr AI. Not sure how Asimov figured this out but the apex Leviathan missed the memo as they watched their thralls being killed for not properly programming this rule into their creations. Maybe they didn't have the Sci Fi channel back then.

And those other groups were stupid as well.  They just were less stupid because they corrected things without losing billions of people in the process.

Modifié par remydat, 13 mai 2013 - 06:15 .

[SilJeff]

I think that the Heretics went to the reapers out of laziness. But Legion and the others went in ME3 out of desperation (after all, the Quarians did just invade and were in Rannoch's system).

Desperate people tend to do things that are questionable, this being no different. I'm sure that had the Quarians not invaded and almost taken over Rannoch (before Shepard intervened of course), then Legion may not have done it.

[S.A.K]

No doubt creating the Geth was a mistake, but the Quarians who made that mistake are all dead now. But the mistake is still there (the Geth) and it is very much a threat to everyone. So "removing" that problem makes it safe for everyone.

[nos_astra]

SilJeff wrote...
I think that the Heretics went to the reapers out of laziness. But Legion and the others went in ME3 out of desperation (after all, the Quarians did just invade and were in Rannoch's system).

Desperate people tend to do things that are questionable, this being no different. I'm sure that had the Quarians not invaded and almost taken over Rannoch (before Shepard intervened of course), then Legion may not have done it.

The geth are programs. I'm not sure they are capable of being lazy or feeling desperation in a way that would make them irrational.

[remydat]

As does removing the kids who compounded their parents mistake by provoking the Geth into a Reaper Alliance. They learned nothing from their 300 years of exile.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

As does removing the kids who compounded their parents mistake by provoking the Geth into a Reaper Alliance. They learned nothing from their 300 years of exile.

How the hell should anyone know Geth don't have a freaking backbone to fight their own fights?

[nos_astra]

remydat wrote...
As does removing the kids who compounded their parents mistake by provoking the Geth into a Reaper Alliance. They learned nothing from their 300 years of exile.

This makes me wonder how many countries deserve being wiped off the face of Earth. Humans tend to repeat mistakes over and over. The sort of mistake that involves suffering and death.

[remydat]

Sak

Because the heretics joined Sovereign. Not rocket science.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

Sak

Because the heretics joined Sovereign. Not rocket science.

Lol. You are saying all Geth are like Heretics. That's even more reason to kill them all.

What kind of logic is this?

[remydat]

Sak

No I am saying if you mistrust them enough to go to war then you probably should assume they are like the Heretics. I don't mistrust them like the Quarians nor am I about to wage war with them so I am free to expect they are not all like the Heretics. However it is pretty stupid for the Quarians to go to war on the basis that the Geth can't be trusted enough to talk to them yet they somehow trust them enough not to side with the Reapers. This has got to be one of the dumbest applications of logic in history.

It makes no sense Sak.  How the hell can you think war is the only option vote against Tali, Koris and peace yet somehow conclude the Geth will never ally with the Reapers?  A vote for war is essentially saying you think they are not better than the Heretics yet you prepare by acting like they are.

Modifié par remydat, 13 mai 2013 - 07:04 .

[S.A.K]

@remydat.
So Quarians should have expected them to join Reapers in the first sign of trouble? What the hell are you saying man? Geth were fighting the Heretics. Quarians don't have crystal balls to know they are chicken enough to become Heretics themselves when threatened.
And they did join Reapers. So you are saying the Geth are not like Heretics, but they are just like Heretics?

You are just giving more and more reasons why the Geth should never be allowed to live.

[remydat]

klarabella wrote...
This makes me wonder how many countries deserve being wiped off the face of Earth. Humans tend to repeat mistakes over and over. The sort of mistake that involves suffering and death.

Well if we are judging them like how people judge the Geth then humanity would be extinct.  USA?  Sorry guys you enslaved a race damn near made another extinct while you took their country from them and gave them a few casinos and then proceeded to discrimante against them until what the late 20th Century.  And the funny thing is they are probably still the best of the bunch when it comed to the most developed countries of the world.  Human development has generally been achieved by subjugating others.

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

@remydat.
So Quarians should have expected them to join Reapers in the first sign of trouble? What the hell are you saying man? Geth were fighting the Heretics. Quarians don't have crystal balls to know they are chicken enough to become Heretics themselves when threatened.
And they did join Reapers. So you are saying the Geth are not like Heretics, but they are just like Heretics?

You are just giving more and more reasons why the Geth should never be allowed to live.

You seem awfully confused by this.  What I believe about the Geth is irrelevant.  I am not in the game.  I did not vote for war.  The Quarians decided to wage war.  If you decide the Geth have to die and you dont have the common sense to anticipate that when their entire existence is threantened the guys that killed billions of your people and allied with the Reapers once would do it again then you fail as a strategist.  The Geth have no allies and there is only one group in the known galaxy they have ever allied with and oh by the way that one group is currently trying to harvest the galaxy.

This really us one of the biggest Duh moments in the entire game.  From the moment I suspected the Quarians attacked the Geth I said to myselfbthe Grth 

[Display Name Owner]

I really dislike Legion's development. I hate how it contradicts everything it and the Geth claimed to stand for in ME2, when that was so much more interesting. They were different and they didn't want to be like us. That was cool. The emotions with Legion towards the end just felt kind of tacked on. It/they were much more intriguing as a mostly dispassionate, alien machine. I also wasn't a fan of how friendly and familiar everyone was with Legion in ME3 either.

[Wayning_Star]

klarabella wrote...

remydat wrote...
As does removing the kids who compounded their parents mistake by provoking the Geth into a Reaper Alliance. They learned nothing from their 300 years of exile.

This makes me wonder how many countries deserve being wiped off the face of Earth. Humans tend to repeat mistakes over and over. The sort of mistake that involves suffering and death.

the very question belies the rule...

In the MEU, it appears that synthetic life is little different in creation, other than construction. The intelligence was there, Life had to 'evolve/spontaneously erupt. There is no evidence otherwise in the MEU that actual 'life' was created from scratch. Even Shepard, being 'resuscitated', from/with reaperized technology. I suspect that the Geth figured out that the reaper codes contained a 'quality' greater than the whole?

Quarians didn't/don't know it, but they didn't bother to ask the Geth about it. But then, if you don't know about something, how can you ask about it?

Anyway. 300 years in time of the MEU standards, contained within the catalyst and Leviathan perspective is not fundamental.

Shepard only gets to 'expand' consciousness during the little time it takes to make decision about it all. (Didn't have all the information during the mission to correct the Morning War and residuals,eh?)

[Wayning_Star]

isnudo wrote...

I really dislike Legion's development. I hate how it contradicts everything it and the Geth claimed to stand for in ME2, when that was so much more interesting. They were different and they didn't want to be like us. That was cool. The emotions with Legion towards the end just felt kind of tacked on. It/they were much more intriguing as a mostly dispassionate, alien machine. I also wasn't a fan of how friendly and familiar everyone was with Legion in ME3 either.

making new friends is bad...

[Wayning_Star]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

@remydat.
So Quarians should have expected them to join Reapers in the first sign of trouble? What the hell are you saying man? Geth were fighting the Heretics. Quarians don't have crystal balls to know they are chicken enough to become Heretics themselves when threatened.
And they did join Reapers. So you are saying the Geth are not like Heretics, but they are just like Heretics?

You are just giving more and more reasons why the Geth should never be allowed to live.

You seem awfully confused by this.  What I believe about the Geth is irrelevant.  I am not in the game.  I did not vote for war.  The Quarians decided to wage war.  If you decide the Geth have to die and you dont have the common sense to anticipate that when their entire existence is threantened the guys that killed billions of your people and allied with the Reapers once would do it again then you fail as a strategist.  The Geth have no allies and there is only one group in the known galaxy they have ever allied with and oh by the way that one group is currently trying to harvest the galaxy.

This really us one of the biggest Duh moments in the entire game.  From the moment I suspected the Quarians attacked the Geth I said to myselfbthe Grth 

this stuff is 'foreshadowing' of decision times ahead, be my guess...

[nos_astra]

remydat wrote...

klarabella wrote...
This makes me wonder how many countries deserve being wiped off the face of Earth. Humans tend to repeat mistakes over and over. The sort of mistake that involves suffering and death.

Well if we are judging them like how people judge the Geth then humanity would be extinct.  USA?  Sorry guys you enslaved a race damn near made another extinct while you took their country from them and gave them a few casinos and then proceeded to discrimante against them until what the late 20th Century.  And the funny thing is they are probably still the best of the bunch when it comed to the most developed countries of the world.  Human development has generally been achieved by subjugating others.

See, the difference between the geth and the quarians is that the quarians are individuals and the geth are not. For the geth to take action CONSENSUS is needed and IIRC this literally means all geth have to agree.
And unlike the quarians who are merely the descendants of the original quarian civilization, still paying dearly for the mistakes of a group of individuals that was originally a minority, the geth are exactly the same geth who unanimously decided to almost wipe out the quarians, driving the rest of them away from their home (the one that the geth don't have any emotional attachment to) and forcing their descendants to live encased in enviro-suits on ships that begin to fall apart.

Modifié par klarabella, 13 mai 2013 - 08:09 .

[Hexi-decimal]

Wait...I am confused at what point was legion not ok with rewriting the heretics that would cause inconstantcies with him wanting to do it later in ME3? Wasn't it his idea to rewrite them in ME2? I am confuse.

[remydat]

There is very little functional difference between voting 3-2 for War and the losers of the vote listening to the winners and going to war versus the Geth voting 3-2 for War and then simply continuing to vote until the 2 that voted no finally give in and vote yes.

In either scenario you are going to war and the people that initially were against the war ultimately allow the war to proceed. Hence why I offered a compromise. I am willing to kill all Geth that voted for war during the initial vote provided we also kill all Quarians who did the same. Otherwise all you are going is punishing the Geth because they decided to continue voting while the Quarians stopped after one round of voting.

And the council laws scared the Quarians into the attack that cost them billions of lives and the council is the one that refused them a new planet to settle.  So are we killing them to for their poor treatment of the Quarians?  The Geth are enemies so i dont expect them to play nice.  What is the council's excuse for condemning the Quarians to a slow death?  Do they just loce watching the Quarians die because of their laws?

Modifié par remydat, 13 mai 2013 - 08:19 .

[Wayning_Star]

Hexi-decimal wrote...

Wait...I am confused at what point was legion not ok with rewriting the heretics that would cause inconstantcies with him wanting to do it later in ME3? Wasn't it his idea to rewrite them in ME2? I am confuse.

it was its idea/mission to find out what exactly to do with the heritics, or IF their the problem. It appeared that the reaper codes would explain/show them the error of their ways with the reaperships. The ships only have ONE purpose, and will/would do almost anything to succeed with that function. The catalyst is the only intellect connected to them to alter their course, and would IF it knew/found/learned of it.

I've always thought of this as a foreshadow of the life giving properties of Leviathan technology. Not explained, but shown through the absence of actually created life forms in the MEU. They just seem to 'become alive', on their own. But even humans may not of done that? Legion was conflicted with it, as a precursor to 'control' or a type of indoctrination. That is the supposed edifice of controversy in this OP. No mention of any 'learning curve' permitted a robotic Legion, apparently?