826 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

remydat wrote...

There is very little functional difference between voting 3-2 for War and the losers of the vote listening to the winners and going to war versus the Geth voting 3-2 for War and then simply continuing to vote until the 2 that voted no finally give in and vote yes.

In either scenario you are going to war and the people that initially were against the war ultimately allow the war to proceed. Hence why I offered a compromise. I am willing to kill all Geth that voted for war during the initial vote provided we also kill all Quarians who did the same. Otherwise all you are going is punishing the Geth because they decided to continue voting while the Quarians stopped after one round of voting.

And the council laws scared the Quariand into the attack that cost them billions of lives and the council is the one that refused them a new planet to settle.  So are we killing them to for their poor treatment of the Quarians.  The Geth are enemies so i donnt expect them to play nice.  What is the council's excuse for condemning the Quarians to a slow death.

I seem to remember the quarians as a minority, even dissed among the inhabitants of the Citadel? They had no political pull whatsoever?

[nos_astra]

remydat wrote...
There is very little functional difference between voting 3-2 for War and the losers of the vote listening to the winners and going to war versus the Geth voting 3-2 for War and then simply continuing to vote until the 2 that voted no finally give in and vote yes.

I don't think geth really vote. Single programs aren't sentient. It's very hard to grasp how they work because their sentience and intelligence is fluid (at least that's how I "understand" it). 100 programs linked together form a VI that is comparable to an animal. More than 1,000 programs are needed to create an "indvidualistic" AI, a gestalt entity like Legion. I doubt the geth see any reason to organize themselves into organic-like entities that actually vote.

It's what made them interesting. They are were the most alien thing in ME. 

ME3 really doesn't follow up on this, though. Instead it dumbs the conflict down. The quarians (a people consisting of around 17 million indivduals) are painted with one brush: incompetent and stupid. They now deserve to die.
And the geth are our friends, they are just like us, they form emotional attachments and understand sentimentality, Legion is our biggest fan and ... oh, look, isn't it cute, they want to become individuals, such a noble goal for an AI ... TRUE SENTIENCE... and it will save them, too. 

I really, really don't like where that plot went. And I refuse to discuss it on in-universe level because the writing is just atrocious.

Modifié par klarabella, 14 mai 2013 - 05:42 .

[Caldari Ghost]

PinkysPain wrote...

I don't buy that the battle of Rannoch would be the end of the Geth race, they'll have pockets from which to begin again ... uploading the Reaper code however is diametrically opposed to everything Legion stood for in ME2.

He sacrifices principles for expedience after being all high and mighty about races forging their own paths ... bleh.

He had true sentience before the upload, he proved that the Geth had the capability for individuality if they were allowed to evolve further on their own ... the supposed fact he only gained it afterwards is a conceit.

there is no practicality and no reason for a machine to "sacrifice" their coding for anything. as long as there's power, the network sustaining the program can continue to exist.



same applies to being used in a story. Geth as synthetics are a special case. I wish bioware tried a little harder to alienate the geth from life as we know it.


"forge their own path". yeah, if only the geth had a chance.      legion making a personal sacrifice, wtf.

Modifié par Caldari Ghost, 13 mai 2013 - 08:25 .

[Dendio1]

PinkysPain wrote...

I don't buy that the battle of Rannoch would be the end of the Geth race, they'll have pockets from which to begin again ... uploading the Reaper code however is diametrically opposed to everything Legion stood for in ME2.

He sacrifices principles for expedience after being all high and mighty about races forging their own paths ... bleh.

He had true sentience before the upload, he proved that the Geth had the capability for individuality if they were allowed to evolve further on their own ... the supposed fact he only gained it afterwards is a conceit.

Legion talked in absolutes back in me2 when he was less sentient. In me3 he came closer to experiencing the human condition. With true sentience in his grasp he went back on his morals and gave his people an immediate evolution. I consider this character development.

Perhaps as legion matured and grew closer to true sentience he gained reason and the ability to change his position on things based on organic emotions like the fear, anxiety, and nervousness we'd all experience if we were in his place...our ultimate goal a stones throw away.

[Caldari Ghost]

Dendio1 wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...

I don't buy that the battle of Rannoch would be the end of the Geth race, they'll have pockets from which to begin again ... uploading the Reaper code however is diametrically opposed to everything Legion stood for in ME2.

He sacrifices principles for expedience after being all high and mighty about races forging their own paths ... bleh.

He had true sentience before the upload, he proved that the Geth had the capability for individuality if they were allowed to evolve further on their own ... the supposed fact he only gained it afterwards is a conceit.

Legion talked in absolutes back in me2 when he was less sentient. In me3 he came closer to experiencing the human condition. With true sentience in his grasp he went back on his morals and gave his people an immediate evolution. I consider this character development.

Perhaps as legion matured and grew closer to true sentience he gained reason and the ability to change his position on things based on organic emotions like the fear, anxiety, and nervousness we'd all experience if we were in his place...our ultimate goal a stones throw away.

define "true sentience".



last I checked we aren't perfect and people think synthetics have no use for organics.

and why would a machine want to be hindered by emotions in the first place. they are a product of organic evolution and have no place in an interstellar society.

i mean....... look at the Council. what a buncha scrubs.

Modifié par Caldari Ghost, 13 mai 2013 - 08:36 .

[Dendio1]

Caldari Ghost wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...

I don't buy that the battle of Rannoch would be the end of the Geth race, they'll have pockets from which to begin again ... uploading the Reaper code however is diametrically opposed to everything Legion stood for in ME2.

He sacrifices principles for expedience after being all high and mighty about races forging their own paths ... bleh.

He had true sentience before the upload, he proved that the Geth had the capability for individuality if they were allowed to evolve further on their own ... the supposed fact he only gained it afterwards is a conceit.

there is no practicality and no reason for a machine to "sacrifice" their coding for anything. as long as there's power, the network sustaining the program can continue to exist.



same applies to being used in a story. Geth as synthetics are a special case. I wish bioware tried a little harder to alienate the geth from life as we know it.


"forge their own path". yeah, if only the geth had a chance.      legion making a personal sacrifice, wtf.

well we are dealing with reaper tech here. In order to upgrade the universe shepard had to sacrfice himself. Perhaps Legion, doing something similar, also had to sacrifice his individuality to be the source upon which all geth could be molded

[Wayning_Star]

Caldari Ghost wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...

I don't buy that the battle of Rannoch would be the end of the Geth race, they'll have pockets from which to begin again ... uploading the Reaper code however is diametrically opposed to everything Legion stood for in ME2.

He sacrifices principles for expedience after being all high and mighty about races forging their own paths ... bleh.

He had true sentience before the upload, he proved that the Geth had the capability for individuality if they were allowed to evolve further on their own ... the supposed fact he only gained it afterwards is a conceit.

Legion talked in absolutes back in me2 when he was less sentient. In me3 he came closer to experiencing the human condition. With true sentience in his grasp he went back on his morals and gave his people an immediate evolution. I consider this character development.

Perhaps as legion matured and grew closer to true sentience he gained reason and the ability to change his position on things based on organic emotions like the fear, anxiety, and nervousness we'd all experience if we were in his place...our ultimate goal a stones throw away.

define "true sentience".



last I checked we aren't perfect and people think synthetics have no use for organics.

I'm wondering myself if that 'reaper code' was some sort of prop in the story to represent wisdom? It would seem that the Geth, through the invention of multi faceted  Legion gains some sort of wisdom from having more than one geth interface within it's platform? In the so called end game, even the catalyst needs Shepard through the crucible to invoke more options not 'available' to it.. a "kind" of wisdom?

[Caldari Ghost]

Dendio1 wrote...

Caldari Ghost wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...

I don't buy that the battle of Rannoch would be the end of the Geth race, they'll have pockets from which to begin again ... uploading the Reaper code however is diametrically opposed to everything Legion stood for in ME2.

He sacrifices principles for expedience after being all high and mighty about races forging their own paths ... bleh.

He had true sentience before the upload, he proved that the Geth had the capability for individuality if they were allowed to evolve further on their own ... the supposed fact he only gained it afterwards is a conceit.

there is no practicality and no reason for a machine to "sacrifice" their coding for anything. as long as there's power, the network sustaining the program can continue to exist.



same applies to being used in a story. Geth as synthetics are a special case. I wish bioware tried a little harder to alienate the geth from life as we know it.


"forge their own path". yeah, if only the geth had a chance.      legion making a personal sacrifice, wtf.

well we are dealing with reaper tech here. In order to upgrade the universe shepard had to sacrfice himself. Perhaps Legion, doing something similar, also had to sacrifice his individuality to be the source upon which all geth could be molded

which could have been assimilated. no need for permanent nonexistence.

I just wish the Geth were more unique, more alien. but it's ok, bioware are humans like us. I shouldn't be so critical.

[Caldari Ghost]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Caldari Ghost wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...

I don't buy that the battle of Rannoch would be the end of the Geth race, they'll have pockets from which to begin again ... uploading the Reaper code however is diametrically opposed to everything Legion stood for in ME2.

He sacrifices principles for expedience after being all high and mighty about races forging their own paths ... bleh.

He had true sentience before the upload, he proved that the Geth had the capability for individuality if they were allowed to evolve further on their own ... the supposed fact he only gained it afterwards is a conceit.

Legion talked in absolutes back in me2 when he was less sentient. In me3 he came closer to experiencing the human condition. With true sentience in his grasp he went back on his morals and gave his people an immediate evolution. I consider this character development.

Perhaps as legion matured and grew closer to true sentience he gained reason and the ability to change his position on things based on organic emotions like the fear, anxiety, and nervousness we'd all experience if we were in his place...our ultimate goal a stones throw away.

define "true sentience".



last I checked we aren't perfect and people think synthetics have no use for organics.

I'm wondering myself if that 'reaper code' was some sort of prop in the story to represent wisdom? It would seem that the Geth, through the invention of multi faceted  Legion gains some sort of wisdom from having more than one geth interface within it's platform? In the so called end game, even the catalyst needs Shepard through the crucible to invoke more options not 'available' to it.. a "kind" of wisdom?

yes, a nice concept to think about. I will have to look into this some moar.

[Wayning_Star]

Dendio1 wrote...

Caldari Ghost wrote...

PinkysPain wrote...

I don't buy that the battle of Rannoch would be the end of the Geth race, they'll have pockets from which to begin again ... uploading the Reaper code however is diametrically opposed to everything Legion stood for in ME2.

He sacrifices principles for expedience after being all high and mighty about races forging their own paths ... bleh.

He had true sentience before the upload, he proved that the Geth had the capability for individuality if they were allowed to evolve further on their own ... the supposed fact he only gained it afterwards is a conceit.

there is no practicality and no reason for a machine to "sacrifice" their coding for anything. as long as there's power, the network sustaining the program can continue to exist.



same applies to being used in a story. Geth as synthetics are a special case. I wish bioware tried a little harder to alienate the geth from life as we know it.


"forge their own path". yeah, if only the geth had a chance.      legion making a personal sacrifice, wtf.

well we are dealing with reaper tech here. In order to upgrade the universe shepard had to sacrfice himself. Perhaps Legion, doing something similar, also had to sacrifice his individuality to be the source upon which all geth could be molded

Legion grokking with the Geth as foreshadow to synthesis. This has been mentioned before on the BSN.

[nos_astra]

Dendio1 wrote...
well we are dealing with reaper tech here. In order to upgrade the universe shepard had to sacrfice himself. Perhaps Legion, doing something similar, also had to sacrifice his individuality to be the source upon which all geth could be molded

Except the geth have no use for individuality and don't see it as something worthy pursuing. Or they didn't back in ME2 (at least the geth writer didn't want them to). They shouldn't. 

[Wayning_Star]

klarabella wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...
well we are dealing with reaper tech here. In order to upgrade the universe shepard had to sacrfice himself. Perhaps Legion, doing something similar, also had to sacrifice his individuality to be the source upon which all geth could be molded

Except the geth have no use for individuality and don't see it as something worthy pursuing. Or they didn't back in ME2 (at least the geth writer didn't want them to). They shouldn't. 

I'm wondering tho if the Geth really are like any other sentience that utilize others to learn 'stuff'. They are ONE mind, doesn't mean they are isolationists. I suspect that intellect, no matter the container have that problem/blessing that sharing is better than being 'alone' with themselves. Nothing ventured nothing gained?

i.e.   One is the Loneliest Number

[Dendio1]

klarabella wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...
well we are dealing with reaper tech here. In order to upgrade the universe shepard had to sacrfice himself. Perhaps Legion, doing something similar, also had to sacrifice his individuality to be the source upon which all geth could be molded

Except the geth have no use for individuality and don't see it as something worthy pursuing. Or they didn't back in ME2 (at least the geth writer didn't want them to). They shouldn't. 

I propose that as they got closer to their goal of true sentience (ability to understand organics and human condition) they developed value for individuality...or at least legion did.

Character growth, not neccesarily breaking so much as develping legions personality

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

"Makes sense" doesn't mean they are trustworthy. By allying with Reapers they essencially became Heretics. That also doesn't mean Legion was telling the truth and it doesn't mean Geth couldn't have allied with Reapers earlier than Legion said. Legion, who is just 1183 programs has the intelligence to figure out Reaper alliance is a bad idea. Geth were also pretty damn fast to side with Reapers and it doesn't look like they explored any alternetives in those 17 days. And It doesn't mean they didn't betray themselves.

Explain to me why Legion is an unreliable narrator of Geth details but the other characters are? Every character has their own secrets and their own spin on what happens in their life/their people's history so what makes Legion obviously so much worse?

Are you guys done trying to justify every wrong Geth ever did? Genocide? Lying? Allying with Reapers? Almost forcing the Quarians into war? Everything the Heretics did? Making an enemy out of every organic?

- The Quarians created the Geth and allowed their programming to evolve.
- The Geth became sentient.
- The Quarians panicked and tried to kill the Geth.
- The Geth retaliated (EDI basically explains how she did the same in the same situation back in ME1).

As for those who want to kill the Geth because of the sheer numbers of Quarians who died in the MW. I'll point you to this page http://en.wikipedia...._casualty_ratio

According to the International Committee of the Red Cross, the civilian-to-solider death ration in wars since mid-20th century has been 10:1.

- The Geth overreacted in the war but ALLOWED the Quarians to leave the planet.
- The Heretics allied with Sovereign because they thought it was their future. The traditional Geth didn't agree.
- The Quarians decide to go to war with the Geth when the entire planet is potentially about to become extinct.
- The Quarians attack the Geth's central processing area with the specific intention of weakening the Geth's ability to think.
- The Quarians not only re-started the Morning War, they brought all their non-combatants with them (including children!) and armed them all with guns to fight and die with the soldiers.
- Faced with the very real possibility of death/the loss of sentience, the Geth allied themselves with the Reapers for code that would remove the need for large numbers of programs to be linked in order to have intelligence.

These are facts as laid out by the game. This is the time table as laid out in-game and only the point where the Geth receive Reaper code has been debated. I accept the Geth did wrong during the MW to result in such high deaths, I accept that they're extreme isolationists and I also accept that the Quarians would, given the right (or wrong) leadership eventually try to take back their planet.

However this does not take away from the point that the Quarians threw every living soul they have at the Geth when the entire galaxy was at threat and backed the Geth who, as everyone is aware, are willing to do whatever they need to do in order to survive. The second MW was a stupid thing to do from the Quarian perspective.

[Dendio1]

I really, really don't like where that plot went. And I refuse to discuss it on in-universe level because the writing is just atrocious.

Well if you're done discussing then im sorry you dislike the plot...and have a good day

[remydat]

Klara

They vote because Legion was having trouble reaching consensus on the heretics. Some of his programs were for rewrite and some were not as I recall.

Legion wanted to be a fully evolved AI not an individual. The drawback to being part of the consensus was if you kill enough geth they all get dumber. This was made abundantly clear by the attack on the megastructure. To deny Legion the right to change his mind when the greatest drawback of being so connected was revealed when millions of death died is to deny him a fundamental aspect of sentient life.

If not for the attack the Geth would be happy to evolve on their own but you dont continue to operate with the same mentality after witnessing the death of millions of your people and with extnction hanging over your head. That is completely illogical. So you may not like the story choice but it was not stupid. The geth didnt want to become individuals. They wanted to be fully evolved AI because it was their only hope for continued existence.  The fact doing so made them more incidental to his goal and not the goal.  You are confusing the writers choosing to make individualism a condition to becoming a fully evolved life as something Legion wanted.  He marveled at all the grownth in their processes when he was discussing with Ran and Shep not being an individual.  It was the processing power that amazed him.

Modifié par remydat, 13 mai 2013 - 09:28 .

[Ghost Lightning]

What? Discontinuity between ME3 and the previous two games?!? This can't be!!!!

:|

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

klarabella said...
I don't think geth really vote. Single programs aren't sentient. It's very hard to grasp how they work because their sentience and intelligence is fluid (at least that's how I "understand" it). 100 programs linked together form a VI that is comparable to an animal. More than 1,000 programs are needed to create an "indvidualistic" AI, a gestalt entity like Legion. I doubt the geth see any reason organize themselves into organic-like entities that actually vote.

It's what made them interesting. They are the most alien thing in ME. 

ME3 really doesn't follow up on this, though. It dumbs the conflict down. The quarians (a people consisting of around 17 million indivduals) are painted with one brush: incompetent and stupid. They now deserve to die.
And the geth are our friends, they are just like us, they form emotional attachments and understand sentimentality, Legion is our biggest fan and ... oh, look, isn't it cute, they want to become individuals, such a noble goal for an AI ... TRUE SENTIENCE... and it will save them, too. 

I really, really don't like where that plot went. And I refuse to discuss it on in-universe level because the writing is just atrocious.

This post just won the thread.

Agreed. In ME3 the Geth went [bad]. The Quarians went [bad]. Never go [bad].

They dropped some of the more interesting aspects of some of the characters that they could have developed. This stuff is on the disk. Some of the dialogue actually got recorded but was never used. Interesting stuff like Xen not being interested in the total destruction of the Geth -- she never was.

Perhaps a situation (my creation here) where if you destroyed the Heretics, maybe 1/2 the geth could have been destroyed, and the Quarians could have taken control of the rest, giving the Quarian fleet 1130 War Assets without the Pinocchio Code. You cut the deal with Xen, don't let Legion upload the code (still some nice points for shooting him), and she, Ra'an, and Tali overule Gerrel. You pick up 35 renegade points (10 for cutting the deal, and 25 for following through). Much more interesting than just destroy the geth or peace (through paragon or renegade).

Then there was this other possibility that was on the disk, but instead of having Xen behaving intelligently, Super Mac had her go full Mad Scientist on the Citadel. Why? If she'd behaved intelligently, you as the player would have wanted to side with her instead of kill her, and her experiment worked, it would have destroyed their Red, Green and Blue ending. Why? She would have found "The Intelligence". You would have brought a briefcase nuke (10-20 KT) onto the Citadel and taken care of the problem.

And to think our MEU still has Super Mac as the lead for the next installment.

[Inappropriate language edited.]

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 14 mai 2013 - 12:56 .

[Bizinha]

[Inappropriate post removed.]

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 14 mai 2013 - 12:55 .

[Khelish]

^ Okay, I laughed at that picture...  

[silverexile17s]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

klarabella said...
I don't think geth really vote. Single programs aren't sentient. It's very hard to grasp how they work because their sentience and intelligence is fluid (at least that's how I "understand" it). 100 programs linked together form a VI that is comparable to an animal. More than 1,000 programs are needed to create an "indvidualistic" AI, a gestalt entity like Legion. I doubt the geth see any reason organize themselves into organic-like entities that actually vote.

It's what made them interesting. They are the most alien thing in ME. 

ME3 really doesn't follow up on this, though. It dumbs the conflict down. The quarians (a people consisting of around 17 million indivduals) are painted with one brush: incompetent and stupid. They now deserve to die.
And the geth are our friends, they are just like us, they form emotional attachments and understand sentimentality, Legion is our biggest fan and ... oh, look, isn't it cute, they want to become individuals, such a noble goal for an AI ... TRUE SENTIENCE... and it will save them, too. 

I really, really don't like where that plot went. And I refuse to discuss it on in-universe level because the writing is just atrocious.

This post just won the thread.

Agreed. In ME3 the Geth went [bad]. The Quarians went [bad]. Never go [bad].

They dropped some of the more interesting aspects of some of the characters that they could have developed. This stuff is on the disk. Some of the dialogue actually got recorded but was never used. Interesting stuff like Xen not being interested in the total destruction of the Geth -- she never was.

Perhaps a situation (my creation here) where if you destroyed the Heretics, maybe 1/2 the geth could have been destroyed, and the Quarians could have taken control of the rest, giving the Quarian fleet 1130 War Assets without the Pinocchio Code. You cut the deal with Xen, don't let Legion upload the code (still some nice points for shooting him), and she, Ra'an, and Tali overule Gerrel. You pick up 35 renegade points (10 for cutting the deal, and 25 for following through). Much more interesting than just destroy the geth or peace (through paragon or renegade).

Then there was this other possibility that was on the disk, but instead of having Xen behaving intelligently, Super Mac had her go full Mad Scientist on the Citadel. Why? If she'd behaved intelligently, you as the player would have wanted to side with her instead of kill her, and her experiment worked, it would have destroyed their Red, Green and Blue ending. Why? She would have found "The Intelligence". You would have brought a briefcase nuke (10-20 KT) onto the Citadel and taken care of the problem.

And to think our MEU still has Super Mac as the lead for the next installment.

[Inappropriate language edited.]

Amen to that.
Also, the fact that "BioWare: Montreal," the group that developed the "Omega DLC" are the ones that supposedly are handling all future Mass Effect-related games, doesn't fill me with much confidence either.
Although personally, Xen always did strike me as unstable. Although, that could just be me taking too much from her sociopathic views. Making her sound more like a quarian version of The Illusive Man seems to match her character as well.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 14 mai 2013 - 01:26 .

[Nightdragon8]

I have a question, Why all the bashing on Omega DLC?? IMO it was a decent story. And in fact I think it had one of the better big bad guys in all of ME. And if fact puts out what people want in the game. Action, with dialoge and your choices matter... whats the problem? Other than the horrid bugs, its good.

[The Night Mammoth]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

I have a question, Why all the bashing on Omega DLC?? IMO it was a decent story. And in fact I think it had one of the better big bad guys in all of ME. And if fact puts out what people want in the game. Action, with dialoge and your choices matter... whats the problem? Other than the horrid bugs, its good.

Speak for youself, I don't want action, I wanted a decent story with engaging characters and nice environments, the combat the least important thing on the list. I got none of that.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 14 mai 2013 - 01:42 .

[remydat]

You can pretend the Quarians pre MW didn't know any better but obviously they know the Geth are sentient today. This chic is prejudiced plain and simple. The only way you can tolerate someone like that is basically by devaluing another sentient species form of existence.

Modifié par remydat, 14 mai 2013 - 03:32 .