826 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Ghost Lightning wrote...

What? Discontinuity between ME3 and the previous two games?!? This can't be!!!!

:|

This.

I mean...on the scale of betraying ME2 this isn't even the tip of the ice berg.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

remydat wrote...



You can pretend the Quarians pre MW didn't know any better but obviously they know the Geth are sentient today. This chic is prejudiced plain and simple. The only way you can tolerate someone like that is basically by devaluing another sentient species form of existence.

Xen is the Quarian version of The Illusive Man. I love her. Reduce the Geth in number down to a size where they are manageable and seize control of their consensus as what should have been done in the first place.

I'm glad you posted that video. She sounds perfectly sane. I want her on my team researching countermeasures against the reapers. I wish they did more with her in ME3 and didn't turn her into a mad scientist, but there's the difference between Drew Karpyshyn and Mac Walters.

[David7204]

What the hell are you even talking about? How is Xen portrayed as a mad scientist at all in ME 3?

You know, you used to make decent posts, but more and more it's just stupid whining like this.

Modifié par David7204, 14 mai 2013 - 05:34 .

[nos_astra]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Xen is the Quarian version of The Illusive Man. I love her. Reduce the Geth in number down to a size where they are manageable and seize control of their consensus as what should have been done in the first place. 

I'm glad you posted that video. She sounds perfectly sane. I want her on my team researching countermeasures against the reapers. I wish they did more with her in ME3 and didn't turn her into a mad scientist, but there's the difference between Drew Karpyshyn and Mac Walters.

 A girl can dream. 

Edit: Not that comparing her to TIM is a glowing recommendation in my book.

Modifié par klarabella, 14 mai 2013 - 05:39 .

[Argolas]

David7204 wrote...

What the hell are you even talking about? How is Xen portrayed as a mad scientist at all in ME 3?

You know, you used to make decent posts, but more and more it's just stupid whining like this.

Wasn't Xen all about regaining control over the Geth in order to ensure Quarian dominance or something like that? Didn't Tail outright call her "insane" for that?

[David7204]

Yeah. In ME 2. Not in ME 3 at all.

[Argolas]

David7204 wrote...

Yeah. In ME 2. Not in ME 3 at all.

I see, I didn't remember that well.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

David7204 wrote...

What the hell are you even talking about? How is Xen portrayed as a mad scientist at all in ME 3?

You know, you used to make decent posts, but more and more it's just stupid whining like this.

It's on the ME3 game disk, David. The quest was mostly written out but it got cut from the game, thankfully, because I would have hated to see her go out that way.  I've seen the dialogue and everything. Walters was going to turn her into a total mad scientist.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

klarabella wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Xen is the Quarian version of The Illusive Man. I love her. Reduce the Geth in number down to a size where they are manageable and seize control of their consensus as what should have been done in the first place. 

I'm glad you posted that video. She sounds perfectly sane. I want her on my team researching countermeasures against the reapers. I wish they did more with her in ME3 and didn't turn her into a mad scientist, but there's the difference between Drew Karpyshyn and Mac Walters.

 A girl can dream. 

Edit: Not that comparing her to TIM is a glowing recommendation in my book.

More like the kinder and gentler version of TIM. Pre-ME2. EDIT: No where near the ME2 version, and definitely not anything close to the ME3 version

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 14 mai 2013 - 05:57 .

[David7204]

Before anything else, do you have any evidence that Walters wrote it instead of another writer?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...



You can pretend the Quarians pre MW didn't know any better but obviously they know the Geth are sentient today. This chic is prejudiced plain and simple. The only way you can tolerate someone like that is basically by devaluing another sentient species form of existence.

ONCE AGAIN, dead wrong.
I believe that the topic of "forced into a war they SPICIFICALLY SAY THEY DON'T WANT by the threat of the Reapers" has been brought up multiple times, but WHEN is it going to stick? If the quarians KNEW there was another way, they WOULD have taken it. Most quarians actually RESENT how their people reacted to the geth in the Morning War - Tali tells you herself on the Alerei in the conversation beside the panel screen, halfway through the ship. Select "That's a bad idea" and then "Then take it back" to hear her admit that most quarians do NOT harbor instinctual hate for the geth. They simply resent how the geth don't seem to have any plans to ever allow them to return to Rannoch. The idea that they thought the geth were irridemably hostile mass murderers is why they attacked - NOT because of some "blood feud." YOU can pretend otherwise, but the simple fact remains that the quarians are no more or less guilty then the geth. The quarians WEREN'T "devaluing" the geth, anymore then the rest of the galaxy did the Reapers - wouldn't YOU devalueize a genocidal machine if it wiped out millions for seemingly no reason? (And before you say it, no, I am NOT talking about the Morning War in that. I am speaking of the Heretic attack, because once again, the geth never disclaimed the Heretics actions as not representive of their own)

Wow, they devaluized an enemy in comparison to their families. They put their loved ones and entire race above the race of machines that have taken every oppertunity to make people think they are irridemably hostile, and have ignored every possibility to change that outlook.
Which is perfectly understandable.

[silverexile17s]

Argolas wrote...

David7204 wrote...

What the hell are you even talking about? How is Xen portrayed as a mad scientist at all in ME 3?

You know, you used to make decent posts, but more and more it's just stupid whining like this.

Wasn't Xen all about regaining control over the Geth in order to ensure Quarian dominance or something like that? Didn't Tail outright call her "insane" for that?

I think Xen is basically a sociopath and racist. Like the Illusive Man - before the Reaper tech. Although, there is an "unstable" vibe in her, given her discection of her childhood toys, and how hacking geth on the dreadnought is her way of having fun. Although, half of Shepard's crew has that vibe - Jack's phycopathic tendencies, Kasumi's kleptomania, Grunt's bloodlust-fuled rages, Garrus' obsession with weapons, as shown by his endless calibration of the Normandy's guns. Then their's Miranda's supremist views and general arrogance, Mordin's hyperactive mind and actions, Samara's strict moral codes, Javik's imperilistic views and actions. ALOT of Shep's crew can be classed as either slightly unstable, or "quirky."

Modifié par silverexile17s, 14 mai 2013 - 06:06 .

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

klarabella wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Xen is the Quarian version of The Illusive Man. I love her. Reduce the Geth in number down to a size where they are manageable and seize control of their consensus as what should have been done in the first place. 

I'm glad you posted that video. She sounds perfectly sane. I want her on my team researching countermeasures against the reapers. I wish they did more with her in ME3 and didn't turn her into a mad scientist, but there's the difference between Drew Karpyshyn and Mac Walters.

 A girl can dream. 

Edit: Not that comparing her to TIM is a glowing recommendation in my book.

More like the kinder and gentler version of TIM. Pre-ME2. EDIT: No where near the ME2 version, and definitely not anything close to the ME3 version

Just because it's the most cleche route possible, I have to ask:
Was Walters going to attribute Xen's sudden insanity to contact with Reaper Tech? Or was he going to write her as outright insane?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 14 mai 2013 - 06:08 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

silverexile17s wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

klarabella wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Xen is the Quarian version of The Illusive Man. I love her. Reduce the Geth in number down to a size where they are manageable and seize control of their consensus as what should have been done in the first place. 

I'm glad you posted that video. She sounds perfectly sane. I want her on my team researching countermeasures against the reapers. I wish they did more with her in ME3 and didn't turn her into a mad scientist, but there's the difference between Drew Karpyshyn and Mac Walters.

 A girl can dream. 

Edit: Not that comparing her to TIM is a glowing recommendation in my book.

More like the kinder and gentler version of TIM. Pre-ME2. EDIT: No where near the ME2 version, and definitely not anything close to the ME3 version

Just because it's the most cleche route possible, I have to ask:
Was Walters going to attribute Xen's sudden insanity to contact with Reaper Tech? Or was he going to write her as outright insane?

Whether Walters actually wrote the lines or not, Walters was the lead and the lead writer does have to approve everything. They never had time to finish the quest, so it got cut.

It wasn't anything to do with contact with Reaper Tech. If the Quarians lived through Rannoch, at some point Xen would mail
Shepard with a request for SPECTRE authorization on geth experimentation
(built from geth platforms if you destroyed them, or from stolen geth
if you made peace). If permitted, she would start developing suicide AI
bombers - effectively the kind of sha'heed/kamikaze type that would
enter proximity of the intended target, upload an AI-eating virus, and
self-destruct (or get eaten by the virus also). After which she would
fly off the handle, and start experimenting on EVERYTHING, including
the Citadel, so that Shepard would have to go to the Citadel and either
arrest her or shoot her dead.

Some lines you get in your e-mail:

"Fact: Reaper technology could control the geth. Fact: per your reports, the Citadel is Reaper technology. Ergo...
So far, all I've managed to do is shut down a few keepers and kill some rabble, but if I can unlock the Citadel's secrets..."

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

klarabella wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Xen is the Quarian version of The Illusive Man. I love her. Reduce the Geth in number down to a size where they are manageable and seize control of their consensus as what should have been done in the first place. 

I'm glad you posted that video. She sounds perfectly sane. I want her on my team researching countermeasures against the reapers. I wish they did more with her in ME3 and didn't turn her into a mad scientist, but there's the difference between Drew Karpyshyn and Mac Walters.

 A girl can dream. 

Edit: Not that comparing her to TIM is a glowing recommendation in my book.

More like the kinder and gentler version of TIM. Pre-ME2. EDIT: No where near the ME2 version, and definitely not anything close to the ME3 version

Just because it's the most cleche route possible, I have to ask:
Was Walters going to attribute Xen's sudden insanity to contact with Reaper Tech? Or was he going to write her as outright insane?

Whether Walters actually wrote the lines or not, Walters was the lead and the lead writer does have to approve everything. They never had time to finish the quest, so it got cut.

It wasn't anything to do with contact with Reaper Tech. If the Quarians lived through Rannoch, at some point Xen would mail
Shepard with a request for SPECTRE authorization on geth experimentation
(built from geth platforms if you destroyed them, or from stolen geth
if you made peace). If permitted, she would start developing suicide AI
bombers - effectively the kind of sha'heed/kamikaze type that would
enter proximity of the intended target, upload an AI-eating virus, and
self-destruct (or get eaten by the virus also). After which she would
fly off the handle, and start experimenting on EVERYTHING, including
the Citadel, so that Shepard would have to go to the Citadel and either
arrest her or shoot her dead.

Some lines you get in your e-mail:

"Fact: Reaper technology could control the geth. Fact: per your reports, the Citadel is Reaper technology. Ergo...
So far, all I've managed to do is shut down a few keepers and kill some rabble, but if I can unlock the Citadel's secrets..."

But.... wait.... that's NOT a lunitic idea. The Citadel is Reaper tech. Hell, it's the CORE of the Mass Relay Network - the same Relay Network that the Crucible blueprints told us in advance were needed to make the Crucible work. We knew ahead of time, per the Crucible's Codex Entry, that the Alliance knew the Mass Relay Network would be utilized in some way to channel the Crucible's energy and target Reaper-affected systems. Studying the Citadel would have made perfect sense, and Xen could have been monitored like she undoubtedly was back on the Migrant Fleet.
So... what the hell was the problem? Where in this perfectly logical idea about studing the only indoctrination-free reaper tech in the galaxy was a mad scientist idea? Okay, granted, Xen can be more then a bit unhinged, but she was NEVER outright illogical. Cold, sociopathic, and callous, but she wasn't outright insane. She at least had definate reasons that had SOME form of logic.
Maybe Walters and the others saw the same thing we did - someone that mirrored the Illusive Man, and would end up like him? They are pretty much the same. Difference is, TIM got enthralled by Reaper Tech. Xen may be cold and, in my opinion, unhinged, but from what I can tell, her only crime in that spicific story arc was being too curoius. I don't see anything in that plotline that would have suddenly cracked the shell off the nut like that. I mean, not even the Normandy's resident "phycotic biotic" Jack flew off the rails like that, and she was the steriotypacal selfish phycopath.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 14 mai 2013 - 08:02 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It started out perfectly reasonable. It ended up as the ME3 version of the DA2 necromancer quest. She started experimenting on humans, not just keepers, on the citadel as I dig deeper into the quest. The Council dispatched Shepard to stop her. The quest got really gruesome. Shepard had the choice of shooting her, arresting her and chaining her to the Crucible project.

"Have the geth uploaded themselves into your suit yet, Tali? Are they speaking for you now?"

Yeah, they really had her flying off the rails, Silver. What they did to the character, I'm glad they dropped it. If it had been logically written it would have destroyed Mac's Starboy ending.

[David7204]

These accusations against Walters based on nothing are complete idiocy. For all you know, it may have been Walters that decided it was a bad idea and cut it out of the game.

Modifié par David7204, 14 mai 2013 - 12:29 .

[Bizinha]

David7204 wrote...

These accusations against Walters based on nothing are complete idiocy. For all you know, it may have been Walters that decided it was a bad idea and cut it out of the game.

We do not know. He was the Leader of ME3, so he signed on underneath it all there.
ps. Edited my  image of google ... I did not edit ok ... is the pure reality of what people think about Mac.

[David7204]

Okay then. That means all you have to attribute every single good thing in ME 3 to him as well as the bad. So Weekes and Dombrow and whatever don't get any credit. Walters is the lead writer, he gets it all.

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

remydat wrote...



You can pretend the Quarians pre MW didn't know any better but obviously they know the Geth are sentient today. This chic is prejudiced plain and simple. The only way you can tolerate someone like that is basically by devaluing another sentient species form of existence.

Xen is the Quarian version of The Illusive Man. I love her. Reduce the Geth in number down to a size where they are manageable and seize control of their consensus as what should have been done in the first place.

I'm glad you posted that video. She sounds perfectly sane. I want her on my team researching countermeasures against the reapers. I wish they did more with her in ME3 and didn't turn her into a mad scientist, but there's the difference between Drew Karpyshyn and Mac Walters.

She is a bigot just like TIM was a bigot.  There is nothing sane about trying to justify experimenting on living beings.  Bigotry is bigotry.

[remydat]

Silver,

What the hell are you babling about?  I was talking about Xen being a bigot. You go on a rant and then in the very next post call her a racist and sociopath. It is like anytime you see my posts you take it as an opportunity to continue ranting about sh*t that has nothing to do with the topic. I said Xen was prejudiced. Do you agree or not?  That was the only topic of discussion.  Xen.

Modifié par remydat, 14 mai 2013 - 02:25 .

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...
Explain to me why Legion is an unreliable narrator of Geth details but the other characters are? Every character has their own secrets and their own spin on what happens in their life/their people's history so what makes Legion obviously so much worse?

Are you guys done trying to justify every wrong Geth ever did? Genocide? Lying? Allying with Reapers? Almost forcing the Quarians into war? Everything the Heretics did? Making an enemy out of every organic?

- The Quarians created the Geth and allowed their programming to evolve.
- The Geth became sentient.
- The Quarians panicked and tried to kill the Geth.
- The Geth retaliated (EDI basically explains how she did the same in the same situation back in ME1).

As for those who want to kill the Geth because of the sheer numbers of Quarians who died in the MW. I'll point you to this page http://en.wikipedia...._casualty_ratio

According to the International Committee of the Red Cross, the civilian-to-solider death ration in wars since mid-20th century has been 10:1.

- The Geth overreacted in the war but ALLOWED the Quarians to leave the planet.
- The Heretics allied with Sovereign because they thought it was their future. The traditional Geth didn't agree.
- The Quarians decide to go to war with the Geth when the entire planet is potentially about to become extinct.
- The Quarians attack the Geth's central processing area with the specific intention of weakening the Geth's ability to think.
- The Quarians not only re-started the Morning War, they brought all their non-combatants with them (including children!) and armed them all with guns to fight and die with the soldiers.
- Faced with the very real possibility of death/the loss of sentience, the Geth allied themselves with the Reapers for code that would remove the need for large numbers of programs to be linked in order to have intelligence.

These are facts as laid out by the game. This is the time table as laid out in-game and only the point where the Geth receive Reaper code has been debated. I accept the Geth did wrong during the MW to result in such high deaths, I accept that they're extreme isolationists and I also accept that the Quarians would, given the right (or wrong) leadership eventually try to take back their planet.

However this does not take away from the point that the Quarians threw every living soul they have at the Geth when the entire galaxy was at threat and backed the Geth who, as everyone is aware, are willing to do whatever they need to do in order to survive. The second MW was a stupid thing to do from the Quarian perspective.

No other character goes completely against what he/she said in the earlier game other than Legion. And about arming every ship; It's clear Geth don't give a damn about civiliance or any organic for that matter. So it's better to have all ships armed so they can defend themselves. And you know they kept the civiliance away from front lines. I already explained to you why Quarians need a planet if they are going to throw their fleet at the Reapers and survive. And there is no proof that Geth weren't already in a deal with Reapers when Quarians attacked.

"overreacted" huh? That's whay you call genocide these days?
Btw, don't bother giving real world examples to try and justify it. Nobody else is responsible from killing 99.9% of a population which is billions of deaths.

@remydat,
I am not confused by anything you said. You made it clear Geth can't be trusted for sh!t (read what you said earlier). If they sided with Reapers twice, what's to say they won't again in the final battle against Reapers if it goes bad for organics? They'll just switch sides again to save their a**es.


To both of you. Geth don't give a damn about organics. So why should we or Shepard as organics, give a damn about Geth and make sacrifices to save them?

Saving Geth means sparing the Reapers as well and Shepard needs has to die.

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

No other character goes completely against what he/she said in the earlier game other than Legion. And about arming every ship; It's clear Geth don't give a damn about civiliance or any organic for that matter. So it's better to have all ships armed so they can defend themselves. And you know they kept the civiliance away from front lines. I already explained to you why Quarians need a planet if they are going to throw their fleet at the Reapers and survive. And there is no proof that Geth weren't already in a deal with Reapers when Quarians attacked.

So your entire reasoning for the Quarians arming their civilian ships is because the Geth don't care about killing civilians? "We're going to throw our civilians are a force that won't hesitate to kill them" is a sound political, moral and military tactic in your eyes?

To both of you. Geth don't give a damn about organics. So why should we or Shepard as organics, give a damn about Geth and make sacrifices to save them?

The Geth, in general, have a neutral perspective about Organics. Live and let live, kill when being threatened.

The Krogan don't give a damn about the Turians or Salarians.
The Salarians sure don't give a damn about the Krogans
Organics never gave a damn about the Geth in the 300 years post-MW. The general attitude was "don't approach them and they haven't come at us"
A lot of Turians don't give a damn about Humans
Most humans come across as not giving a damn about any aliens.

A species not giving a damn about you is not a good enough reason to kill them.

Modifié par Morlath, 14 mai 2013 - 04:06 .

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

No other character goes completely against what he/she said in the earlier game other than Legion. And about arming every ship; It's clear Geth don't give a damn about civiliance or any organic for that matter. So it's better to have all ships armed so they can defend themselves. And you know they kept the civiliance away from front lines. I already explained to you why Quarians need a planet if they are going to throw their fleet at the Reapers and survive. And there is no proof that Geth weren't already in a deal with Reapers when Quarians attacked.

So your entire reasoning for the Quarians arming their civilian ships is because the Geth don't care about killing civilians? "We're going to throw our civilians are a force that won't hesitate to kill them" is a sound political, moral and military tactic in your eyes?

Yes? Reapers don't care about civiliance and Geth don't care about civiliance. And unarmed ships are just targets. Btw, did you read the part "they kept the civiliance away from front lines"?

To both of you. Geth don't give a damn about organics. So why should we or Shepard as organics, give a damn about Geth and make sacrifices to save them?

The Geth, in general, have a neutral perspective about Organics. Live and let live, kill when being threatened.

The Krogan don't give a damn about the Turians or Salarians.
The Salarians sure don't give a damn about the Krogans
Organics never gave a damn about the Geth in the 300 years post-MW. The general attitude was "don't approach them and they haven't come at us"
A lot of Turians don't give a damn about Humans
Most humans come across as not giving a damn about any aliens.

A species not giving a damn about you is not a good enough reason to kill them.

Geth knew what the Reapers intended to do. Still they practically told Heretics "We won't be joining, but go have some fun guys!" ("We understood their reasons and let them leave"). Btw, they shot any organic ship entering their space. But they just "chat" with the Reapers both times they came. Also Geth were actively trying to kill Shepard in all 3 games.

I was not talking about killing the Geth their, just that we don't have to do anything special to save them such as Shepard needing to die or doing something other than killing the Reapers.

Killing Reapers and killing Geth just happened to be the same thing.

[remydat]

Quarians didnt care about defenseless Geth who were in fields planting sh*t. If it is ok to kill them on the basis they can potentially kill you then a civilian has the potential to pick up a gun and kill someone. Happens all the time since most crime in a country is committed by civilians.

The reason the Geth dont distinguish between civilian and soldier is because the Quarians never did. A Geth unit farming is not a soldier. He is not engaged in any military act against you. If you kill him on the basis he can become a soldier then so can any Quarian civilian as evidence by civilian ships being armed. Or are we pretending civilains cant hold and fire guns?

And responding with the Geth can all kill is pointless.  The fact that the Quarians decided to teach all their machines how to kill is not the Geth's fault.  The fact the Quarians did not teach all their people how to kill is not the Geth's fault.  The Geth being better at converting their non combatants into combatants is not the Geth's fault.  All of that is rhe result of Quarian stupidity.

Modifié par remydat, 14 mai 2013 - 05:32 .