826 réponses à ce sujet

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

Quarians didnt care about defenseless Geth who were in fields planting sh*t. If it is ok to kill them on the basis they can potentially kill you then a civilian has the potential to pick up a gun and kill someone. Happens all the time since most crime in a country is committed by civilians.

The reason the Geth dont distinguish between civilian and soldier is because the Quarians never did. A Geth unit farming is not a soldier. He is not engaged in any military act against you. If you kill him on the basis he can become a soldier then so can any Quarian civilian as evidence by civilian ships being armed. Or are we pretending civilains cant hold and fire guns?

And responding with the Geth can all kill is pointless.  The fact that the Quarians decided to teach all their machines how to kill is not the Geth's fault.  The fact the Quarians did not teach all their people how to kill is not the Geth's fault.  The Geth being better at converting their non combatants into combatants is not the Geth's fault.  All of that is rhe result of Quarian stupidity.

So the Geth killed everyone because they are a potential threat? Civiliance can fight, sick people can get better and fight, babies can grow up and fight, old people can drink from the fountain of youth and fight, and so forth. And because ships can be armed with Thanix guns so can babies!

I never seen a Geth baby but I guess you have. And by your logic every organic in the galaxy can pick up guns, so they are also a threat to the Geth and should be killed! Because Quarians made machines of war like every other organic, nothing could be Geths fault!

/sarcasm:lol:

Modifié par S.A.K, 14 mai 2013 - 05:56 .

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

Yes? Reapers don't care about civiliance and Geth don't care about civiliance. And unarmed ships are just targets. Btw, did you read the part "they kept the civiliance away from front lines"?

It's idiotic.

And keeping civilians, especially children, out of the war is a lot different than arming their mobile homes and sticking them within a circle of military ships going to war. The two aren't even close to being comparable.

Geth knew what the Reapers intended to do. Still they practically told Heretics "We won't be joining, but go have some fun guys!" ("We understood their reasons and let them leave").

Do you kill a bunch of right-wing believers just for their beliefs? Humanity doesn't get into a civil war with Cerberus until near the end of ME3. The STG groups don't have civil war with the Salarians who refuse to fight because Shepard cured the Genophage.

Btw, they shot any organic ship entering their space. But they just "chat" with the Reapers both times they came. Also Geth were actively trying to kill Shepard in all 3 games.

Heretic Geth.

Honestly, SAK, I'm getting tired of going round in circles. Most of your arguments end up being personal interpretations of events with nothing backing them up.

You act like the Geth were happy about the Heretics killing organics when it's explained that the Geth don't have a real opinion either way on Organics outside of having respect for the Quarians.

You don't like the idea of the Quarians forcing the Geth's hand in asking for Reaper Code so you refuse to believe anything Legion says.

You justify the Quarians putting their entire race at risk for a war that didn't need to be fought by saying that the Geth would have attacked the civilian ships anyway (which hadn't happened in 300 years).

So you keep thinking the Geth are evil devils that needed to destroyed if that's what you want. I'm not going to keep hitting my head against a brick wall with this.

[silverexile17s]

David7204 wrote...

These accusations against Walters based on nothing are complete idiocy. For all you know, it may have been Walters that decided it was a bad idea and cut it out of the game.

It hardly matters wheather or not he wrote it, because as lead writer, he still would have green-lit anything elxe that was written. He obviously did green-light this plotline since the diolouge still exists. In fact, since it was so complete, I wonder if it was intended to be a DLC like From Ashes. Unlikely though.
The point is that the bad writing was either written by him, or green-lighted by him.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

What the hell are you babling about?  I was talking about Xen being a bigot. You go on a rant and then in the very next post call her a racist and sociopath. It is like anytime you see my posts you take it as an opportunity to continue ranting about sh*t that has nothing to do with the topic. I said Xen was prejudiced. Do you agree or not?  That was the only topic of discussion.  Xen.

LoL. Once again, you try to twist it around.
"You can pretend the Quarians pre MW didn't know any better."
Remember THAT sentance? Or that you accused the entire quarian race of devaluing the geth being the only way Xen could be tolerated? I explained that these things had NOTHING to do with their march on Rannoch.
Also, lol, what? The title of this post is "Am I the only one who feels Legion betrayed his ME2 characterization?" I don't see Xen's name anywhere on the title, so what the hell are you going on about?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 14 mai 2013 - 06:37 .

[remydat]

Sak,

If you have a problem with that logic then you should take it up with the Quarians who killed unarmed Geth that were planting seeds for them. The Geth were killed based on the potential threat. The threat could only be potential because the Geth never attacked the Quarians. If you have proof a Geth attacked then please provide it. Otherwise they were killed because of the potential threat. Well once ypu go down that road Quarians you cant complain when you are killed because you are a potential threat.

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...
1. It's idiotic.
And keeping civilians, especially children, out of the war is a lot different than arming their mobile homes and sticking them within a circle of military ships going to war. The two aren't even close to being comparable.

2. Do you kill a bunch of right-wing believers just for their beliefs? Humanity doesn't get into a civil war with Cerberus until near the end of ME3. The STG groups don't have civil war with the Salarians who refuse to fight because Shepard cured the Genophage.

3. Heretic Geth.

Honestly, SAK, I'm getting tired of going round in circles. Most of your arguments end up being personal interpretations of events with nothing backing them up.

You act like the Geth were happy about the Heretics killing organics when it's explained that the Geth don't have a real opinion either way on Organics outside of having respect for the Quarians.

You don't like the idea of the Quarians forcing the Geth's hand in asking for Reaper Code so you refuse to believe anything Legion says.

You justify the Quarians putting their entire race at risk for a war that didn't need to be fought by saying that the Geth would have attacked the civilian ships anyway (which hadn't happened in 300 years).

So you keep thinking the Geth are evil devils that needed to destroyed if that's what you want. I'm not going to keep hitting my head against a brick wall with this.

1. Like Quarians have a safe place to keep their unarmed civiliance. Geth are holding their freaking planets remember? If they loose one Live ship, they'll starve. Geth held their home for 300 years and didn't even allow communications in that time. How the hell can you blame them for wanting to return home? Why don't you blame Geth for putting them in that spot? Sure Quarians made a mistake in the MW. But the Geth killed 99.9% of them and made them pay for generations.

2. Geth knew damn well what Reapers want and Heretics want to side with them. They just didn't give a damn because they were not a threat to the Orthodox Geth at the time. Geth don't care about Heretics killing organics. So why should Shepard care about the Geth dying? How f*cking hard is this to understand? There is only one way to kill the Reapers and it also kills the Geth and I don't care about the Geth. Give me one reason why any organic should care about the Geth dying.

3. I can say the same to you. I already explained N-number of times why I don't trust Legion and you failed to give one reason why I should trust that thing. Legion went completely against everything it said in ME2. Hpw the f*ck can that thing be trusted?

Legion intentionally showed only the bad parts about Quarians during the war and Geth letting the last Quarians leave. It didn't even show one Geth firing a shot. Legion intentionally tries to paint the Quarians in a bad light in the Geth server mission, taking the Commander some place nobody else can see and give a bad impression about Quarians. It tells me they made the Geth ally with Reapers. I am supposed to take Legion's words for it?

Are you saying Geth wouldn't shoot a civilian Quarin ship if it was sent into Geth space? All their freaking planets are in Geth space. If you want to see the Geth as innocent cuddly babies, go ahead. Just don't expect me to forget everything they done and don't expect me to trust a word Legion says without any reasonto trust Legion.

[remydat]

Silver,

Sorry I was talking about Shotgun devaluing Geth lives because she is holding up Xen as some form of hero despite her stated desire in ME2 to want to enslave the Geth ie a sentient race. I said even if we accept the excuse that the Quarians pre MW didnt know better that you ie Shotgun cant pretend that Xen doesnt know better when everyone is aware the Geth are sentient.

So the topic of the post was Xen not the OP because Shotgun brought up Xen not me. Try to follow along.

Modifié par remydat, 14 mai 2013 - 06:48 .

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

Sak,

If you have a problem with that logic then you should take it up with the Quarians who killed unarmed Geth that were planting seeds for them. The Geth were killed based on the potential threat. The threat could only be potential because the Geth never attacked the Quarians. If you have proof a Geth attacked then please provide it. Otherwise they were killed because of the potential threat. Well once ypu go down that road Quarians you cant complain when you are killed because you are a potential threat.

I already told you the start of the MW was Quarian fault because they paniced. And I already answered why I don't care about the Geth. Geth are not worth the sacrifice and they should pay for the things they have done like the Quarians did for theirs.

[remydat]

Perhaps the council should have given them a home. There is not a single Quarian who has ever lived on Rannoch. It is not their home. It was the home of their long dead ancestors. Native Americans or any race whose ancestors once lived on land 300 years ago dont have a claim to said land today.

[S.A.K]

If there was a way to save Geth and kill the Reapers, I might have consider it. But there is no such way. My Shepard isn't dying for the Geth and he definitely isn't sparing the Reapers for the Geth.

[remydat]

You want the Geth to pay with extinction which the Quarians did not pay with. I already told you before happy to kill both of them. Happy to kill the war mongers on both sides.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

Perhaps the council should have given them a home. There is not a single Quarian who has ever lived on Rannoch. It is not their home. It was the home of their long dead ancestors. Native Americans or any race whose ancestors once lived on land 300 years ago dont have a claim to said land today.

You know damn well they'll need to adapt for generations to live in any other planet. The Quarians evolved on Rannoch and their species lived for millions of years on it. So they still consider it their home.

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...
1. Like Quarians have a safe place to keep their unarmed civiliance. Geth are holding their freaking planets remember? If they loose one Live ship, they'll starve. Geth held their home for 300 years and didn't even allow communications in that time. How the hell can you blame them for wanting to return home? Why don't you blame Geth for putting them in that spot? Sure Quarians made a mistake in the MW. But the Geth killed 99.9% of them and made them pay for generations.

Council space? Getting in touch with Shepard and asking for help? It's heavily hinted that the Quarians and Turians are on some type of friendly basis (far more than with other species) so they could easily ask for a small handful of Turian ships to protect the civilian ships. All of these have flaws but it's better than putting everyone at risk.

Look, I'm sorry but this genocide/99.9% killing of Quarians argument as a way of justifying anything done against the Geth is just wrong. The Geth not only allowed the .1% to leave the planet but also didn't attack anyone outside of "their" space for the next 300 years shows they aren't bloodthirsty monsters.

I don't blame the Quarians for wanting their home planet back. I blame them for trying to take the damn thing when the galaxy is burning and I blame them for trying to get their planet back whilst putting their damn CHILDREN in the firing line.

And the Geth cannot be blamed for the Quarians losing their planet. You're an idiot if you start a war with someone, lose that war, and then try to blame that other group for you losing the war that you started.

2. Geth knew damn well what Reapers want and Heretics want to side with them. They just didn't give a damn because they were not a threat to the Orthodox Geth at the time. Geth don't care about Heretics killing organics. So why should Shepard care about the Geth dying? How f*cking hard is this to understand? There is only one way to kill the Reapers and it also kills the Geth and I don't care about the Geth. Give me one reason why any organic should care about the Geth dying.

And I've said on numerous occassions that the Geth were extreme isolationists who only wanted to live their existence and not be bothered by organics. That in-and-of itself is not a justification to be killed.

You were aware of the fact that America didn't officially enter WW2 until Pearl Harbour, right? That the American government was fully aware of what the Axis were doing in Europe and how many people were being killed and would have been stupid to not realise that the Axis would have turned their sights to America if Europe had been lost. Didn't matter, it took a "oh ****, now WE'RE under attack" moment to get the politicians to agree to enter the damn war.

3. I can say the same to you. I already explained N-number of times why I don't trust Legion and you failed to give one reason why I should trust that thing. Legion went completely against everything it said in ME2. Hpw the f*ck can that thing be trusted?

Because circumstances changed!

Wrext went completely against his character in ME1 (not caring about his people to wanting to be the leader who takes them into a better future). Anderson knows that the VS is researching not only the Collector attacks but Shepard as well but says nothing about it. Mordin is part of the STG squad that "fixes" the genophage but in ME3 is the one that tries to cure it.

Why? Because circumstances change and...my god! Shock!....people change with them. Views change, opinions change and agendas adapt to new events/information.

Legion intentionally showed only the bad parts about Quarians during the war and Geth letting the last Quarians leave. It didn't even show one Geth firing a shot. Legion intentionally tries to paint the Quarians in a bad light in the Geth server mission, taking the Commander some place nobody else can see and give a bad impression about Quarians. It tells me they made the Geth ally with Reapers. I am supposed to take Legion's words for it?

But you're happy to take the word of the Quarians? The Quarians who ADMIT that they attacked the Geth as a pre-emptive strike. The same Quarians who didn't want to lose their slaves to sentience, the same Quarians who are led by blind zealots so obsessed with seeing the Geth as evil that one of their Admirals are willing to KILL Shepard and another Admiral just for the chance to get a shot in.

THOSE people you're happy to trust giving you a balance view on the Geth situation?

Are you saying Geth wouldn't shoot a civilian Quarin ship if it was sent into Geth space? All their freaking planets are in Geth space. If you want to see the Geth as innocent cuddly babies, go ahead. Just don't expect me to forget everything they done and don't expect me to trust a word Legion says without any reasonto trust Legion.

I expect the Geth to try and kill any and all Quarians they saw.

The Quarians tried to bloody exterminate their entire species just for reaching sentience!

Modifié par Morlath, 14 mai 2013 - 07:06 .

[S.A.K]

@Morlath,
You know Quarians didn't have a better time to retake their world because of the council laws against provoking the Geth. And how long would the Quarians stay safe in council space? Reapers are everywhere. You blame Quarians for putting their children in danger but says blaming the Geth for killing millions of children is wrong?

How can I be sure Geth won't switch sides again if the final battle goes bad for organics? The circumstances change and Geth will ally with Reapers again to save themselves.

I didn't take the Quarians word for anything. The Geth were sided with Reapers and I saw it myself. I would also trust Legion if I had some reason to do so. Quarians also never went away from what they said before.

If the Geth view Quarians that way, I should be happy to kill the Geth for siding with Reapers to help screw the galaxy for their own selfishness. The other species never did anything to the Geth, Fair enough?

Modifié par S.A.K, 14 mai 2013 - 07:31 .

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...
You know Quarians didn't have a better time to retake their world because of the council laws against provoking the Geth. And how long would the Quarians stay safe in council space? Reapers are everywhere. You blame Quarians for putting their children in danger but says blaming the Geth for killing millions of children is wrong?

Firstly, it's the absolute WORST time to start a war. There is no way that this new war is going to end with the Quarians getting out without damages. They are going to lose people, they are going to lose ships and they are going to be a lot weaker when having to face the Reapers.

No, the Reapers arriving was an excuse to attack the Geth.

As for your last point, I think you're missing something. I'm not saying that the Geth killing children was right (although I stand by the opinion that WMDs are different than house-to-house assassinations), however I'm saying that just because the Geth did so during the Morning War does not mean the Quarians should be willing to do it in ME3.

How can I be sure Geth won't switch sides again if the final battle goes bad for organics? The circumstances change and Geth will ally with Reapers again to save themselves.

Each Geth becomes a full blooded AI, an independent creature, and so they'll have the choice on who to side with. It's the same way as not knowing if someone is going to panic and run or stand and fight.

I didn't take the Quarians word for anything. The Geth were sided with Reapers and I saw it myself. I would also trust Legion if I had some reason to do so. Quarians also never went away from what they said before.

And this has been explained to you. People do crazy things when they're scared or when they're under threat, they "sell their souls" in the vain hope of living one more day than dying today.

If there are people in horror camps, you can't guarentee at all that someone isn't going to turn traitor just so they can live another day at the expense of another even if it's obvious they'll be killed at some point.

If the Geth view Quarians that way, I should be happy to kill the Geth for siding with Reapers to help screw the galaxy for their own selfishness. The other species never did anything to the Geth, Fair enough?

By the same mentality the Krogan shouldn't be trusted even if the Genophage is cured or the Turians shouldn't be trusted once they get the Krogan ground troops.

Every species does things for selfish reasons in order to keep surviving.

Modifié par Morlath, 14 mai 2013 - 07:41 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

Sorry I was talking about Shotgun devaluing Geth lives because she is holding up Xen as some form of hero despite her stated desire in ME2 to want to enslave the Geth ie a sentient race. I said even if we accept the excuse that the Quarians pre MW didnt know better that you ie Shotgun cant pretend that Xen doesnt know better when everyone is aware the Geth are sentient.

So the topic of the post was Xen not the OP because Shotgun brought up Xen not me. Try to follow along.

But ONCE AGAIN, given everything the geth have done, and all they have failed to change, can you really blame the rest of the galaxy for devaluing them? Not just Xen - the entire galaxy saw the geth as enemies, and thus, put a higher value on other organics. Xen's views actually aren't that different from how the Council and Alliance see the geth. Difference is that Xen wants to repurpose them, while the Council and Alliance just want them dead for what happened at Eden Prime and the Citadel.
Also, I NEVER recalled her stating Xen was a "hero." Just that she was an intelligent, supremist-based idealist, like the Illusive Man. I know alot of people that say their favorate character is the Illusive Man, even though they disagree on him being a hero. Hell, one of my favorate characters in the series is Saren, even though he was completely sociopathic and racist.
Xen truly does believe that the geth are not living beings, because they aren't the same form of life. A line that you repeatedly blurr as well, except you refuse to acknowledge that the geth are not like organic life. Xen sees things opposate - she sees they aren't like organic life, but believes that means they aren't truly living beings. It's her personal belief.
Also, I must remind you that her proposals were NOT part of the quarian's war plans, and therefore, her ideals on controling the geth were NOT part of the reason the quarians went to war. And also, I'm afraid that you once again are wring because not everyone does know that the geth are sentiant. Obviously there are like-minded quarians, since Xen couldn't have become an Admiral without having like-minded supporters. Javik, and protheans in general, don't believe that synthetic beings are anything more then false beings. Hell, even Dr. Chakwas says that she believes the geth and synthetics are nothing but machines that mimic organics. Fellow Alliance soldier Ashely Williams refuses to see the geth as anything more then cold machines enslaved to Sovergein. So, regardless of your claims, we have valid proof that there are people out there that do see the geth as nothing more then mindless, murderous monsters.

And AGAIN, wrong, since I didn't see any adress to that topic. You want to make a statement against a spicific person, qoute them. Because the original topic I commented on, HAD NO ADRESSED RECIPIENT. It was not spicifically adressed to @sH0tgUn  jUliA. Try to stay consistant.

[Khelish]

Morlath wrote...

As for your last point, I think you're missing something. I'm not saying that the Geth killing children was right (although I stand by the opinion that WMDs are different than house-to-house assassinations)

So what if it is different? That does not make it better.

Perhaps you aren't educated on what the effects of chemical weapons are on organics, but I can certainly tell you that using chemical based weaponry on innocent people is far worse than going house to house and using firearms.

It is barbaric and unethical. 

And before Remy runs in and says "But the quarians never taught peace!", I would like to point out that yes they did. The quarians that stood up for the geth in the Morning War showed the geth how to act and it shows in the consensus video (At first...). The geth started out using self-defense, they had the right to. They did not have the right to wipe out billions of innocent people that had nothing to do with how they were treated.

If you are able to look up in historical documents or records and ponder the question of a "soul", you are able to determine right from wrong.

Creator Magara and other sympathizers showed the geth consensus how to act in peace, the geth also saw the quarian military and how they acted. The geth as a whole had a choice; kill millions of innocent people, or to use restraint when in battle. Billions of civilians dead and quarian worlds' left with toxins is what we have left. I think you can imagine what happened. Had the quarian military killed millions of their own people, wouldn't Legion show this to you for a sympathy vote in Mass Effect 3? All he shows us is Creator Magara dying in an explosion. Had the quarian military acted out like Auld "The Headcanon" Wulf thinks, we would have seen it in the consensus.

"The geth are better than this..." - "No, based on empirical evidence, we are not."

Do you judge all North Korea's civilians by their leadership? The quarian military and government in the Morning War does not accurately convey the civilians' views on the geth situation. The only reason the pro-geth quarians switched sides, was because the geth stopped caring about all quarians - Man, woman, and child, the geth targeted them. Using chemical weapons is not a valid form of "self-defense", and it makes me wonder if you people have actually seen what those weapons are capable of. 

Both sides in this conflict made mistakes, wronged each other, and put millions of lives at risk. Both sides.

I'm going to play Mass Effect 3 now, and I'm going to make peace between the geth and the quarians. Have fun trying to gain the moral high ground in a situation where both are morally repugnant. I truly am done posting about the whole geth/quarian conflict. Maybe when a new game comes out BioWare might add in some new details, but until that time, this is pointless.

Goodbye.

[silverexile17s]

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...
You know Quarians didn't have a better time to retake their world because of the council laws against provoking the Geth. And how long would the Quarians stay safe in council space? Reapers are everywhere. You blame Quarians for putting their children in danger but says blaming the Geth for killing millions of children is wrong?

Firstly, it's the absolute WORST time to start a war. There is no way that this new war is going to end with the Quarians getting out without damages. They are going to lose people, they are going to lose ships and they are going to be a lot weaker when having to face the Reapers.

No, the Reapers arriving was an excuse to attack the Geth.

As for your last point, I think you're missing something. I'm not saying that the Geth killing children was right (although I stand by the opinion that WMDs are different than house-to-house assassinations), however I'm saying that just because the Geth did so during the Morning War does not mean the Quarians should be willing to do it in ME3.

How can I be sure Geth won't switch sides again if the final battle goes bad for organics? The circumstances change and Geth will ally with Reapers again to save themselves.

Each Geth becomes a full blooded AI, an independent creature, and so they'll have the choice on who to side with. It's the same way as not knowing if someone is going to panic and run or stand and fight.

I didn't take the Quarians word for anything. The Geth were sided with Reapers and I saw it myself. I would also trust Legion if I had some reason to do so. Quarians also never went away from what they said before.

And this has been explained to you. People do crazy things when they're scared or when they're under threat, they "sell their souls" in the vain hope of living one more day than dying today.

If there are people in horror camps, you can't guarentee at all that someone isn't going to turn traitor just so they can live another day at the expense of another even if it's obvious they'll be killed at some point.

If the Geth view Quarians that way, I should be happy to kill the Geth for siding with Reapers to help screw the galaxy for their own selfishness. The other species never did anything to the Geth, Fair enough?

By the same mentality the Krogan shouldn't be trusted even if the Genophage is cured or the Turians shouldn't be trusted once they get the Krogan ground troops.

Every species does things for selfish reasons in order to keep surviving.

1. But AGAIN, what else were they supposed to do? In their current state, the Reapers would cut up the densly-packed together fleet like a christmas ham. There isn't anywhere else to send their people, since only dextro worlds would work, and all are truian-owned, and all are either conquered or besieged by the Reapers, Collectors, or Cerberus. Any worlds left would be already overpacked with turian refugees. No turian colony is in any state to take on 17 million refugees that have strict health requirements and spicific diets. In a war for their very existance, the turians can't possibly spare the resoruces for an entire population while trying to support a front line AND nourishing their own civilian population. It's impossible.
Also, did yoi FORGET the quarian's viral weapon. You know, the viral flash-bang that compmetely disables geth ships, so that the quarians can take them apart without taking any damage whatsoever?  So again, wrong. With the viral flash-bang in hand, the quarians were able to tear into the geth and push them all the way back to Rannoch. Or didn't you think it was weird that the majority of the quarian fleet got through four geth systems without a scratch until this point? The quarians world was being held by a hostile faction, and you literally have an instant win button that would allow you to beat them without ever taking a single punch.
So NO. They would have their world back. They would have the geth's abandoned emplacements to repurpose Rannoch into a fortress to defend their civilians. And a viral weapon that would allow them to win without losing a single ship. And they would eliminate a faction that has seemingly been alinged with the Reapers for three years.
WHAT exactally made this NOT the safest bet?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Reaper attack was NOT an excuse. It literally forced them into a war they DID NOT WANT. From what you hear from Dorn'Hazt, the quarians didn't want a war. The only reason they martched on the geth was because (A) the Reapers would kill them without a world to shelter their civilians on, and ( the geth have shown no inclination to wantng negotiation, if their recalling of Legion was any indication.

And once again, the geth don't HAVE innocents or civilians. Legion himself, and the subisquent Codex entry you unlock, spicifically state that the term "civilian" does not exist for the geth. All are created as miltipurpose platforms that can take any task. They are basically born adults, with the same level of comprehension as any other geth.

2. Um... no it's not. The geth have repeatedly screwed people over to save themselves. I haven't seen any surefire evidence that, had the galaxy lost, the geth wouldn't have turned back to them. Besides, we don't even know the full capabilaties of the Reaper Code. They created it, so it's concivable they could hack it again. After all, using Reaper Tech against the Reapers didn't end well for Cerberus, did it?
The geth have consistantly shown that when push comes to shove, they usually buckle. Even if that's not what will happen, you can't blame people for expecting the worst, since the worst is how the geth usually reacted in that choice.

3. If that's true, then how ARE the quarians any different then the geth? What makes YOU so convinced that the geth are better?
And look at Earth. EDI tells you that in those same exact horror camps, with Reapers looking over them, NO ONE betrayed their fellows. Not one person. What does that tell you? They knew they were going to die, but when faced with the choice, the humans spit in the Reaper's faces and said "go to hell." Even Legion shows disaproval at the geth siding with the Reapers over a continued fight.

4. The point here is that the geth screwed over the entire galaxy. Twice. First by letting the Heretics up and leave with Sovergein, and again by siding with them in the Rannoch War. That's considerably more then the avarage race.

[silverexile17s]

Khelish wrote...

Morlath wrote...

As for your last point, I think you're missing something. I'm not saying that the Geth killing children was right (although I stand by the opinion that WMDs are different than house-to-house assassinations)

So what if it is different? That does not make it better.

Perhaps you aren't educated on what the effects of chemical weapons are on organics, but I can certainly tell you that using chemical based weaponry on innocent people is far worse than going house to house and using firearms.

It is barbaric and unethical. 

And before Remy runs in and says "But the quarians never taught peace!", I would like to point out that yes they did. The quarians that stood up for the geth in the Morning War showed the geth how to act and it shows in the consensus video (At first...). The geth started out using self-defense, they had the right to. They did not have the right to wipe out billions of innocent people that had nothing to do with how they were treated.

If you are able to look up in historical documents or records and ponder the question of a "soul", you are able to determine right from wrong.

Creator Magara and other sympathizers showed the geth consensus how to act in peace, the geth also saw the quarian military and how they acted. The geth as a whole had a choice; kill millions of innocent people, or to use restraint when in battle. Billions of civilians dead and quarian worlds' left with toxins is what we have left. I think you can imagine what happened. Had the quarian military killed millions of their own people, wouldn't Legion show this to you for a sympathy vote in Mass Effect 3? All he shows us is Creator Magara dying in an explosion. Had the quarian military acted out like Auld "The Headcanon" Wulf thinks, we would have seen it in the consensus.

"The geth are better than this..." - "No, based on empirical evidence, we are not."

Do you judge all North Korea's civilians by their leadership? The quarian military and government in the Morning War does not accurately convey the civilians' views on the geth situation. The only reason the pro-geth quarians switched sides, was because the geth stopped caring about all quarians - Man, woman, and child, the geth targeted them. Using chemical weapons is not a valid form of "self-defense", and it makes me wonder if you people have actually seen what those weapons are capable of. 

Both sides in this conflict made mistakes, wronged each other, and put millions of lives at risk. Both sides.

I'm going to play Mass Effect 3 now, and I'm going to make peace between the geth and the quarians. Have fun trying to gain the moral high ground in a situation where both are morally repugnant. I truly am done posting about the whole geth/quarian conflict. Maybe when a new game comes out BioWare might add in some new details, but until that time, this is pointless.

Goodbye.

Chem weapons are devestating on their own. But used on a race of people that have natrually weak immune systems? Unrecoverable.

And I agree that both sides comitted many mistakes. The quarians jumped the gun, and the geth used unessessary force. Both have made mistakes. IDK why so many say "the quarians are more guilty" when NITHER side is more justified or guilty then the other.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 14 mai 2013 - 09:37 .

[justafan]

Don't get too down Khelish. The Geth vs. Quarian debate is just a really contentious issue, and one of the more interesting topics about the game, perhaps the last interesting topic we can still discuss over a year after release.

I would also hazard a guess that 90% of the people who argue this to death still choose peace 90% of the time, it's just we all have our preferences when we do that one no-import Shepard. I am one who picks peace but chose to save the Quarians every time I could not for every reason gone over to death on this topic and on countless others (I even started a few of them myself back in the day). I find what the Geth did inexcusable, and their inability to learn in 300 years how to interact with organics a liability in the greater conflict against the reapers. But I know others disagree, and often they have valid in-game reasons too when they don't resort to massive headcanon. However, I still enjoy watching these back and forths, fun stuff, and sometimes you see realize something new.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

silverexile17s wrote...

remydat wrote...

Silver,

Sorry I was talking about Shotgun devaluing Geth lives because she is holding up Xen as some form of hero despite her stated desire in ME2 to want to enslave the Geth ie a sentient race. I said even if we accept the excuse that the Quarians pre MW didnt know better that you ie Shotgun cant pretend that Xen doesnt know better when everyone is aware the Geth are sentient.

So the topic of the post was Xen not the OP because Shotgun brought up Xen not me. Try to follow along.

But ONCE AGAIN, given everything the geth have done, and all they have failed to change, can you really blame the rest of the galaxy for devaluing them? Not just Xen - the entire galaxy saw the geth as enemies, and thus, put a higher value on other organics. Xen's views actually aren't that different from how the Council and Alliance see the geth. Difference is that Xen wants to repurpose them, while the Council and Alliance just want them dead for what happened at Eden Prime and the Citadel.
Also, I NEVER recalled her stating Xen was a "hero." Just that she was an intelligent, supremist-based idealist, like the Illusive Man. I know alot of people that say their favorate character is the Illusive Man, even though they disagree on him being a hero. Hell, one of my favorate characters in the series is Saren, even though he was completely sociopathic and racist.
Xen truly does believe that the geth are not living beings, because they aren't the same form of life. A line that you repeatedly blurr as well, except you refuse to acknowledge that the geth are not like organic life. Xen sees things opposate - she sees they aren't like organic life, but believes that means they aren't truly living beings. It's her personal belief.

Exactly. She feels no more guilty experimenting on them than she did experimenting on her childhood toys.

Tali said in an accusatory tone "The fact that you experimented on you childhood toys explains a lot." What? I don't think her childhood toys were alive either.

Also, I must remind you that her proposals were NOT part of the quarian's war plans, and therefore, her ideals on controling the geth were NOT part of the reason the quarians went to war. And also, I'm afraid that you once again are wring because not everyone does know that the geth are sentiant. Obviously there are like-minded quarians, since Xen couldn't have become an Admiral without having like-minded supporters. Javik, and protheans in general, don't believe that synthetic beings are anything more then false beings. Hell, even Dr. Chakwas says that she believes the geth and synthetics are nothing but machines that mimic organics. Fellow Alliance soldier Ashely Williams refuses to see the geth as anything more then cold machines enslaved to Sovergein. So, regardless of your claims, we have valid proof that there are people out there that do see the geth as nothing more then mindless, murderous monsters.

And AGAIN, wrong, since I didn't see any adress to that topic. You want to make a statement against a spicific person, qoute them. Because the original topic I commented on, HAD NO ADRESSED RECIPIENT. It was not spicifically adressed to @sH0tgUn  jUliA. Try to stay consistant.

The thing is they didn't sell it. They didn't see me on the willingness of either synthetics or organics to cooperate with each other in the long term. We never saw a synthetic give its life to save an organic. We never saw an organic give their life to save a synthetic. Not once in the entire series. All we saw was conflict.

Then suddenly we're supposed to buy that Shepard is going to change that with a single choice in the end. The reaper choice. Shepard has to die for organic-synthetic sins so that the two may live in peace. Bullcrap. I don't buy it. Geth will still fight Quarian, but now it just won't be Organic vs. Synthetic. It will be synthanic vs synthanic. because there isn't anymore of either organic or synthetic. But EDI is alive and not alone.

Legion betrayed its ME2 characterization because a different writing team took over for the original writer and thought it was a good idea to do the Pinocchio Code thing. So he made the Geth ordinary.

[Morlath]

silverexile17s wrote...

Chem weapons are devestating on their own. But used on a race of people that have natrually weak immune systems? Unrecoverable.

And I agree that both sides comitted many mistakes. The quarians jumped the gun, and the geth used unessessary force. Both have made mistakes. IDK why so many say "the quarians are more guilty" when NITHER side is more justified or guilty then the other.

I'm replying to this because I wanted to say something before I do any more posting about Geth-Quarian issues.

I'm in no way advocating that Geth are the good guys in the situation nor am I trying to paint the Quarians as completely in the wrong. In truth the reasoning for my posts being mostly pro-Geth is because of the sheer anti-Geth/Pro-Quarian posts I'm replying to trying to put all of the blame onto the Geth.

Are there valid reasons for the Geth to use chemical weapons during the Morning War? In my opinion yes but only if we are given more information on what happened during this period of history. Again, my arguments for Geth in this situation comes mostly from how we aren't given any information and yet people are wanting the Quarians to be painted the innocent victims when the actual facts we do know tells us this isn't the case.

Everything about WMD use in any war must be taken in context or else America can't be forgiven for using the bombs on Japan, England can't be forgiven for the strikes against Germany and Germany can't be forgiven for the Blitz. Because taken in isolation all of these are horrifc events without any military perspective.

Note - Notice I say military perspective. Anti-Geth posters are trying to say that the Geth deliberately and with malice targeted civilian populations almost to the point of not even trying to win the Morning War. Whether you doubt this or not there is nothing in any codex or conversation piece that tells us the Geth did this. All we're told is the result of the war.

[Morlath]

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

1. But AGAIN, what else were they supposed to do? In their current state, the Reapers would cut up the densly-packed together fleet like a christmas ham. There isn't anywhere else to send their people, since only dextro worlds would work, and all are truian-owned, and all are either conquered or besieged by the Reapers, Collectors, or Cerberus. Any worlds left would be already overpacked with turian refugees. No turian colony is in any state to take on 17 million refugees that have strict health requirements and spicific diets. In a war for their very existance, the turians can't possibly spare the resoruces for an entire population while trying to support a front line AND nourishing their own civilian population. It's impossible.
[/quote]

I do love how people ignore the point that all the Quarian cvilian fleet would need is military protection. The ships would be together, they make their own food and they wouldn't be taking up any space on a planet. It would simply be a place to put the civilian fleet so that they could be protected (as much as is possible in the current situation) while the military goes and fight the Geth.

[quote]
Also, did yoi FORGET the quarian's viral weapon. You know, the viral flash-bang that compmetely disables geth ships, so that the quarians can take them apart without taking any damage whatsoever?  So again, wrong. With the viral flash-bang in hand, the quarians were able to tear into the geth and push them all the way back to Rannoch. Or didn't you think it was weird that the majority of the quarian fleet got through four geth systems without a scratch until this point? The quarians world was being held by a hostile faction, and you literally have an instant win button that would allow you to beat them without ever taking a single punch.
So NO. They would have their world back. They would have the geth's abandoned emplacements to repurpose Rannoch into a fortress to defend their civilians. And a viral weapon that would allow them to win without losing a single ship. And they would eliminate a faction that has seemingly been alinged with the Reapers for three years.
WHAT exactally made this NOT the safest bet?
[/quote]

Firstly, you can assume that Tali told the Admiralty board all about the Heretic Geth. Secondly, the Quarian viral weapon had no absolute guarentee that it would work or be totally successful in the way it was.

And thirdly? The sheer success of the viral weapon adds more explaination to why the Geth were desperate enough to ask the Reapers for coding to help.

[quote]
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Reaper attack was NOT an excuse. It literally forced them into a war they DID NOT WANT. From what you hear from Dorn'Hazt, the quarians didn't want a war. The only reason they martched on the geth was because (A) the Reapers would kill them without a world to shelter their civilians on, and ( the geth have shown no inclination to wantng negotiation, if their recalling of Legion was any indication.
[/quote]

Of course it was. Are you telling me that the very moment the Reapers attacked was the best time to attack the Geth? Not a month early?

Even if you say that the viral weapon had just been finished, it only adds to the proof that the Quarians were so desperate to resume their war with the Geth that they jumped at the very first opportunity they had to do so regardless of what was happening elsewhere in the galaxy.

[quote]
2. Um... no it's not. The geth have repeatedly screwed people over to save themselves. I haven't seen any surefire evidence that, had the galaxy lost, the geth wouldn't have turned back to them. Besides, we don't even know the full capabilaties of the Reaper Code. They created it, so it's concivable they could hack it again. After all, using Reaper Tech against the Reapers didn't end well for Cerberus, did it?
The geth have consistantly shown that when push comes to shove, they usually buckle. Even if that's not what will happen, you can't blame people for expecting the worst, since the worst is how the geth usually reacted in that choice.
[/quote]

How the Geth usually react to a situation is pure survival instinct whatever the cost.

[quote[
3. If that's true, then how ARE the quarians any different then the geth? What makes YOU so convinced that the geth are better?
[/quote]

I'm not saying the Geth are better. I'm arguing that the Geth aren't WORSE than the Quarians throughout the Quarian-Geth conflict.

[quote]
And look at Earth. EDI tells you that in those same exact horror camps, with Reapers looking over them, NO ONE betrayed their fellows. Not one person. What does that tell you? They knew they were going to die, but when faced with the choice, the humans spit in the Reaper's faces and said "go to hell." Even Legion shows disaproval at the geth siding with the Reapers over a continued fight.
[/quote]

And that is a brilliant case of humanity overcoming horrific odds but it is the exception and not the rule.

[quote]
4. The point here is that the geth screwed over the entire galaxy. Twice. First by letting the Heretics up and leave with Sovergein, and again by siding with them in the Rannoch War. That's considerably more then the avarage race.
[/quote]

A species (can't remember if it's named in the Codex) opens a Mass Relay and screws the galaxy by introducing the Rachni.
The Salarians raise up the Krogan to win the war only for the Krogan to screw the galaxy and start the Krogan wars.
Humanity ends up having a right-wing splinter groupd called Cerberus that almost kills the war against the Repears by sabotaging it at every turn.

I'd say that there's been enough screwing over the galaxy by different people that no one has the moral right as a species to throw stones.

[silverexile17s]

Morlath wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Chem weapons are devestating on their own. But used on a race of people that have natrually weak immune systems? Unrecoverable.

And I agree that both sides comitted many mistakes. The quarians jumped the gun, and the geth used unessessary force. Both have made mistakes. IDK why so many say "the quarians are more guilty" when NITHER side is more justified or guilty then the other.

I'm replying to this because I wanted to say something before I do any more posting about Geth-Quarian issues.

I'm in no way advocating that Geth are the good guys in the situation nor am I trying to paint the Quarians as completely in the wrong. In truth the reasoning for my posts being mostly pro-Geth is because of the sheer anti-Geth/Pro-Quarian posts I'm replying to trying to put all of the blame onto the Geth.

Are there valid reasons for the Geth to use chemical weapons during the Morning War? In my opinion yes but only if we are given more information on what happened during this period of history. Again, my arguments for Geth in this situation comes mostly from how we aren't given any information and yet people are wanting the Quarians to be painted the innocent victims when the actual facts we do know tells us this isn't the case.

Everything about WMD use in any war must be taken in context or else America can't be forgiven for using the bombs on Japan, England can't be forgiven for the strikes against Germany and Germany can't be forgiven for the Blitz. Because taken in isolation all of these are horrifc events without any military perspective.

Note - Notice I say military perspective. Anti-Geth posters are trying to say that the Geth deliberately and with malice targeted civilian populations almost to the point of not even trying to win the Morning War. Whether you doubt this or not there is nothing in any codex or conversation piece that tells us the Geth did this. All we're told is the result of the war.

And what if there IS no valid reason to the geth's use of biological WMD's? We certinly haven't seen any evidence that states the geth had no choice in using them. If anything, the geth had more then enough oppertunity to avoid it coming to the use of WMD's. My point is this: Is the thought that the geth overreacted really that bad? We KNOW they did - hell, Legion himself admits that the entire reason the geth became caretakers for Rannoch and the other worlds is because they are trying to repent for the loss of life, even if they don't regret the actual rebellion.
The differnece is that the quarians had justifiable fears and reasons for their reaction, even if they did end up taking it too far.
What justifiable reason was there for the geth to butcher women and children in the millions? Not to mention unaffliliated alien visitors? Self-defense is one thing, but some people on here confuse self-defense with armed retaliation and escliation of conflict - the exact opposate of self-defense, as you are now the one attacking. Defending yourself is fine, but going out and killing that person's wife, kids, siblings, parents, relitives, neighbors, co-workers and so-forth is mass murder. The quarians reacted viloently to the geth because (A) unlike organics, all geth have the capabilaty to become walking weapons, and ( they felt that it was either them or the geth, what with the possibility of the geth going rampant, or the Council coming down and starting a war anyway.

Also, in ME2, Legion outright tells you that the quarians accounts of the Morning War are "largely the same." In other words, the public record is pretty much accurate. The public record that says the quarians suffered "unthinkable genocide" at the hands of the geth. So, basically, yes - the geth did kill all those people unessessarily, almost to the point of not caring about the Morning War. Just look at Adas. A mining colony that posed no threat to it's geth population. And yet, the geth slaughtered them. No prisioners. No survivors. No unarmed civilians allowed to escape. Just outright slaughter. That pretty much sums up how the geth treated the majority of the quarians.
Hell, even EDI comments on this. She even goes as far as to say that the geth's inabilaty to develop true individual prefrences, like a stand-alone A.I. such as herself, caused the geth to devaluize individual lives. They literally felt nothing toward killing millions, including any desire to stop. Only afterwords, when they began to comprehend emotinal attachment, did they start to feel remorse for killing so many.
I'm sorry, but it's made quite clear that the massive genocide of the quarians rests with the geth.

[remydat]

Silver, Shotgun

Plenty of people seriously believed other racial groups were sub human. Does that mean it is ok? Either you oppose prejudice or you dont. Saying it is ok for someone to be a bigot because they really believe in their bigotry in their heart of hearts is ultimately a morally bankrupt statement. It would be like Hitler saying but I really believe the Jews are sub human or a slave master saying but I really believe a slave is just property.

All you are doing is cherry picking when it is cool to be a bigot based on whether you like or dislike the group being subject to said bigotry.

Modifié par remydat, 14 mai 2013 - 11:58 .