826 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

Khelish,

The Geth reciprocated creator megara defending them by choosing to turn itslef in. It in effect mimicked the behavior of its creator. However clearly the Quarians kept killing them and the instinct to show concern for their creator was killed out of them period. When know it was there because we saw it in the consensus. We know somewhere along the way it disappeared and it seems obvious to me it disappeared because the Quarians kept killing them and the creator megaras of the world where silenced.

So sure chemical weapons are bad but yet organics still create them. It is highly likely those chemical weapons were created by the Quarians and all the Geth did was take Quarians stockpiles and used it against them. Why because a newly sentient race that was viciously attacked has no reason not to.

It was wrong. It was horrific but when you murder what little compassion a newly sentient race has you cant cry about the consequences.  The Geth morally were cave men who were then given chemical weapons and magically expected to know not to use them when their enemy is killing them with extreme prejudice.

Modifié par remydat, 15 mai 2013 - 12:17 .

[remydat]

Also being able to read is not evidence you know right from wrong. Plenty of mentally ill people can read but are legally incapable of determing right from wrong due to mental illness.

If I raised a child and all I did was teach him book knowledge and did not teach him morality he would be a highly intelligent amoral bastard.

The geth read something and wanted to know what it meant. It asked its creators and their creators ultimaty tried to kill them for it. They wanted to learn and their creators taught them trying to learn and asking questions is punishable by death. Where you think they learned right from wrong in that is beyond me.  If I beat the sh*t out of my kids when they tried to learn or ask questions I am pretty sure they would not truly learn how to distinguish right from wrong.  Further if I dont think my kids are sentient then I have no reason to teach ot these things.  I dont teach my computer right from wrong because it is a computer.  So again not sure how it magically learns morality.

Modifié par remydat, 15 mai 2013 - 12:29 .

[KingZayd]

remydat wrote...

Also being able to read is not evidence you know right from wrong. Plenty of mentally ill people can read but are legally incapable of determing right from wrong due to mental illness.

If I raised a child and all I did was teach him book knowledge and did not teach him morality he would be a highly intelligent amoral bastard.

The geth read something and wanted to know what it meant. It asked its creators and their creators ultimaty tried to kill them for it. They wanted to learn and their creators taught them teying to learn and ask questions is punishable by death. Where you think they learned right from wrong in that is beyond me.

People seem to be missing this aspect. The Geth's style of combat was almost certainly inspired by Quarian tactics. Was anyone else amused by the similarity in Legion and Tali's skills in ME2? I took them together on all Geth/Quarian related missions because I thought that'd be the most interesting way to do things.

[Morlath]

silverexile17s wrote...

And what if there IS no valid reason to the geth's use of biological WMD's? We certinly haven't seen any evidence that states the geth had no choice in using them. If anything, the geth had more then enough oppertunity to avoid it coming to the use of WMD's. My point is this: Is the thought that the geth overreacted really that bad? We KNOW they did - hell, Legion himself admits that the entire reason the geth became caretakers for Rannoch and the other worlds is because they are trying to repent for the loss of life, even if they don't regret the actual rebellion.
The differnece is that the quarians had justifiable fears and reasons for their reaction, even if they did end up taking it too far.

What justifiable reason was there for the geth to butcher women and children in the millions? Not to mention unaffliliated alien visitors? Self-defense is one thing, but some people on here confuse self-defense with armed retaliation and escliation of conflict - the exact opposate of self-defense, as you are now the one attacking. Defending yourself is fine, but going out and killing that person's wife, kids, siblings, parents, relitives, neighbors, co-workers and so-forth is mass murder. The quarians reacted viloently to the geth because (A) unlike organics, all geth have the capabilaty to become walking weapons, and ( they felt that it was either them or the geth, what with the possibility of the geth going rampant, or the Council coming down and starting a war anyway.

Also, in ME2, Legion outright tells you that the quarians accounts of the Morning War are "largely the same." In other words, the public record is pretty much accurate. The public record that says the quarians suffered "unthinkable genocide" at the hands of the geth. So, basically, yes - the geth did kill all those people unessessarily, almost to the point of not caring about the Morning War. Just look at Adas. A mining colony that posed no threat to it's geth population. And yet, the geth slaughtered them. No prisioners. No survivors. No unarmed civilians allowed to escape. Just outright slaughter. That pretty much sums up how the geth treated the majority of the quarians.
Hell, even EDI comments on this. She even goes as far as to say that the geth's inabilaty to develop true individual prefrences, like a stand-alone A.I. such as herself, caused the geth to devaluize individual lives. They literally felt nothing toward killing millions, including any desire to stop. Only afterwords, when they began to comprehend emotinal attachment, did they start to feel remorse for killing so many.
I'm sorry, but it's made quite clear that the massive genocide of the quarians rests with the geth.

I don't understand this. How is the Quarians having "justifiable fears" of an attack that may or may not have happened okay to start a war with a newly sentient species BUT that newly sentient species must be forever
damned in people's eyes for taking their self-protection too far when they, as you agree, didn't even understand the concept of such a thing?

- It's okay to create a synthetic species with programming that skirts AI without giving it any understanding of what life is, means or the value of life itself.
- It's okay to use this species as slaves.
- It's okay to freak out when this species suddenly crosses that line into sentience.
- It's okay to decide that rather than attempt to talk and educate this species in what it means to be alive and the value of life outside of protecting onself, that you instead attempt to commit synthetic genocide.

The synthetic species, not really understanding anything but the threat to its new life, attacks and defends itself and then takes the war into genocidal numbers until the creators are forced to flee. The synthetic life then decides it wants to isolate itself from all organics, most likely to PROTECT itself from organics since the only organic species it has known ended up trying to destroy it.

- It's okay for that organic species to then attempt to wipe out this synthetic life 300 years later the moment they feel they have the chance to win.

However it's apparently NOT okay to admit the Geth went to far but believe that they might have actually learnt some value of life considering their "all species has the right to grow in their own way" mentality. Apparently it's NOT okay for this synthetic species, faced with its own extinction yet again, to turn to another synthetic race in desperation. Because hey, the Reapers want to kill every organic race in the universe and an organic race has TWICE tried to kill the Geth...

The double standards on a new species trying to grow is amazing.

Did the Geth commit horrors? Absolutely. Did the Geth decide that the Heretics having a right to their own path and opinion outway the damage they would do to organics? Yes.

Did the Quarians over react to cause the Morning War in the first place? Absolutely. Did the Quarians then attack the Geth at every opportunity they could and look to kill the entire Geth species in ME3. Without a doubt.

And are the Geth attempting to find an understanding of what life is and what their place is within the universe? There's enough hints throughout Legion's talks to suggest this is the case.

And let me finish of with this. There is a reason Western law has innocent until proven guilty and that's because it's very difficult to 100% prove a negative. If anyone believes that the Geth deserve destruction then, regardless of what is said, nothing is going to affect their opinion. However I argue that if you're looking to prove the Geth deserve destruction then there's enough in ME2 and ME3 to say that while they aren't innocent parties in any of the conflicts, there's enough blame to go around that they don't deserve an automatic death sentence during the Rannoch story.

Modifié par Morlath, 15 mai 2013 - 12:32 .

[Morlath]

KingZayd wrote...

remydat wrote...

Also being able to read is not evidence you know right from wrong. Plenty of mentally ill people can read but are legally incapable of determing right from wrong due to mental illness.

If I raised a child and all I did was teach him book knowledge and did not teach him morality he would be a highly intelligent amoral bastard.

The geth read something and wanted to know what it meant. It asked its creators and their creators ultimaty tried to kill them for it. They wanted to learn and their creators taught them teying to learn and ask questions is punishable by death. Where you think they learned right from wrong in that is beyond me.

People seem to be missing this aspect. The Geth's style of combat was almost certainly inspired by Quarian tactics. Was anyone else amused by the similarity in Legion and Tali's skills in ME2? I took them together on all Geth/Quarian related missions because I thought that'd be the most interesting way to do things.

And that's a massive point. The Geth weren't given any moral control because they fooled themselves into the thinking of "we aren't making AIs". So when the time came to pay the piper, the Geth had nothing in which to balance their actions against.

But apparently it doesn't matter. People want the Geth to have all the blame.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver, Shotgun

Plenty of people seriously believed other racial groups were sub human. Does that mean it is ok? Either you oppose prejudice or you dont. Saying it is ok for someone to be a bigot because they really believe in their bigotry in their heart of hearts is ultimately a morally bankrupt statement. It would be like Hitler saying but I really believe the Jews are sub human or a slave master saying but I really believe a slave is just property.

All you are doing is cherry picking when it is cool to be a bigot based on whether you like or dislike the group being subject to said bigotry.

Once again, you cite a point that DOESN'T MATTER IN THE LEAST.
It is NOT about opposing prejudice, it's about understanding WHY it exists. And the krogan and geth have done plenty to make people be prejudiced about them. It's basically a "them or us" situation. Don't act like you aren't human, because in that case, you already stated that you would pick yourself over them regardless of morals - the same thing you tried to defend the geth's slaughter with. So now you are saying it's ALWAYS wrong to comit sin in any case? Doesn't that counter your attempt to justify the geth's actions in the Morning War, in which tou said their mass-murder was completely justified by the fact that they were attacked to begin with? Comitting massive sins against an entire people for the actions of a few IS wrong now, even though you siad it WASN'T wrong for the geth?
And ONCE AGAIN, having a respect for a character's intelligence, abilaties, determination, and understanding their ideals, is NOT the same as actively agreeing with them. For example, I admire Saren's determination, abilaty, high level of skill, and his attempt to try and put the wider galaxy first, misguided as it was. That doesn't mean I agree with his racist views or extrimist measures to everything. @Julia saying she respects Xen as a person, and that she can understand Xen's viewpoint, doesn't mean she agrees with her views, and she never claimed such. You are basically talking out your ass on that. Understanding someone's POV is not the same as agreeing with it - something the geth understand since all geth have differnet conculsions on the same information, allowing all POV's to be examined for consensis. Since the entire foundation of geth consensis is based around that, you of all people should be able to understand the concept of being able to comprehend something but not be in agreement on it.

And ONCE AGAIN, you are unable to refue a point without having to resort to Godwin's Law and try and bring Hitler and the Jews into the mix.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 15 mai 2013 - 12:40 .

[justafan]

KingZayd wrote...

People seem to be missing this aspect. The Geth's style of combat was almost certainly inspired by Quarian tactics. Was anyone else amused by the similarity in Legion and Tali's skills in ME2? I took them together on all Geth/Quarian related missions because I thought that'd be the most interesting way to do things.

Undoubtedly there are many similarities in how they view combat.  The Geth were built as weapons of war for the Quarians, and that reflects in their tech powers, and even how they have strong shields to compensate for the weak squishy stuff inside, as Quarians always had weak immunities which the shields compensate for.  Though the tendency to zerg rush was in all likelyhood programmed, since I can't think of a more useless tactic for squishy Quarians (or maybe not, since according to Grunt they are not so squishy).

The Geth were always used for war.  The Quarians just never expected the enemy to be themselves.

Modifié par justafan, 15 mai 2013 - 12:44 .

[silverexile17s]

[quote]Morlath wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

1. But AGAIN, what else were they supposed to do? In their current state, the Reapers would cut up the densly-packed together fleet like a christmas ham. There isn't anywhere else to send their people, since only dextro worlds would work, and all are truian-owned, and all are either conquered or besieged by the Reapers, Collectors, or Cerberus. Any worlds left would be already overpacked with turian refugees. No turian colony is in any state to take on 17 million refugees that have strict health requirements and spicific diets. In a war for their very existance, the turians can't possibly spare the resoruces for an entire population while trying to support a front line AND nourishing their own civilian population. It's impossible.
[/quote]

I do love how people ignore the point that all the Quarian cvilian fleet would need is military protection. The ships would be together, they make their own food and they wouldn't be taking up any space on a planet. It would simply be a place to put the civilian fleet so that they could be protected (as much as is possible in the current situation) while the military goes and fight the Geth.

[quote]
Also, did yoi FORGET the quarian's viral weapon. You know, the viral flash-bang that compmetely disables geth ships, so that the quarians can take them apart without taking any damage whatsoever?  So again, wrong. With the viral flash-bang in hand, the quarians were able to tear into the geth and push them all the way back to Rannoch. Or didn't you think it was weird that the majority of the quarian fleet got through four geth systems without a scratch until this point? The quarians world was being held by a hostile faction, and you literally have an instant win button that would allow you to beat them without ever taking a single punch.
So NO. They would have their world back. They would have the geth's abandoned emplacements to repurpose Rannoch into a fortress to defend their civilians. And a viral weapon that would allow them to win without losing a single ship. And they would eliminate a faction that has seemingly been alinged with the Reapers for three years.
WHAT exactally made this NOT the safest bet?
[/quote]

Firstly, you can assume that Tali told the Admiralty board all about the Heretic Geth. Secondly, the Quarian viral weapon had no absolute guarentee that it would work or be totally successful in the way it was.

And thirdly? The sheer success of the viral weapon adds more explaination to why the Geth were desperate enough to ask the Reapers for coding to help.

[quote]
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Reaper attack was NOT an excuse. It literally forced them into a war they DID NOT WANT. From what you hear from Dorn'Hazt, the quarians didn't want a war. The only reason they martched on the geth was because (A) the Reapers would kill them without a world to shelter their civilians on, and ( the geth have shown no inclination to wantng negotiation, if their recalling of Legion was any indication.
[/quote]

Of course it was. Are you telling me that the very moment the Reapers attacked was the best time to attack the Geth? Not a month early?

Even if you say that the viral weapon had just been finished, it only adds to the proof that the Quarians were so desperate to resume their war with the Geth that they jumped at the very first opportunity they had to do so regardless of what was happening elsewhere in the galaxy.

[quote]
2. Um... no it's not. The geth have repeatedly screwed people over to save themselves. I haven't seen any surefire evidence that, had the galaxy lost, the geth wouldn't have turned back to them. Besides, we don't even know the full capabilaties of the Reaper Code. They created it, so it's concivable they could hack it again. After all, using Reaper Tech against the Reapers didn't end well for Cerberus, did it?
The geth have consistantly shown that when push comes to shove, they usually buckle. Even if that's not what will happen, you can't blame people for expecting the worst, since the worst is how the geth usually reacted in that choice.
[/quote]

How the Geth usually react to a situation is pure survival instinct whatever the cost.

[quote[
3. If that's true, then how ARE the quarians any different then the geth? What makes YOU so convinced that the geth are better?
[/quote]

I'm not saying the Geth are better. I'm arguing that the Geth aren't WORSE than the Quarians throughout the Quarian-Geth conflict.

[quote]
And look at Earth. EDI tells you that in those same exact horror camps, with Reapers looking over them, NO ONE betrayed their fellows. Not one person. What does that tell you? They knew they were going to die, but when faced with the choice, the humans spit in the Reaper's faces and said "go to hell." Even Legion shows disaproval at the geth siding with the Reapers over a continued fight.
[/quote]

And that is a brilliant case of humanity overcoming horrific odds but it is the exception and not the rule.

[quote]
4. The point here is that the geth screwed over the entire galaxy. Twice. First by letting the Heretics up and leave with Sovergein, and again by siding with them in the Rannoch War. That's considerably more then the avarage race.
[/quote]

A species (can't remember if it's named in the Codex) opens a Mass Relay and screws the galaxy by introducing the Rachni.
The Salarians raise up the Krogan to win the war only for the Krogan to screw the galaxy and start the Krogan wars.
Humanity ends up having a right-wing splinter groupd called Cerberus that almost kills the war against the Repears by sabotaging it at every turn.

I'd say that there's been enough screwing over the galaxy by different people that no one has the moral right as a species to throw stones.

[/quote]
@Silverexile17. (blasted thing screwed up when I qouted the post).

1. Military protection for 50,000 ships, where the loss of even ONE ship will be a blow to their entire population, and where if even ONE of the three liveships is destroyed, half the quarians will starve, and a months worth of dextro-rations to be gifted EVERY DAY to the quarians, AND their imobility thanks to having to be so tightly grouped together and having to cluster around the liveships, making them both a massive target, AND impractical for combat since they will bog down everyone else by needing constant cover?
I love how you think that suicidal idea sounds good. Seriously, that isthe epitimy of a bad idea - look at Palaven and Earth. The Reapers handled them easily. How much worse do you think it will get if they all have to group into a single centralized slaughterfest around potentally defensless livehsips? They DON'T have that kind of capabilaty to mass-produce food for everyone because there isn't space for it. The quarians balance everything out in terms of storage. Stocking up on weapons and medicine and repair supplies means not stocking up on food. And thanks to their weak immune systems and fragile ships, the quarians would burn through those resources. Remember Kal'Reegar's words on the fleet?
"You've only seen our strike ops. Don't have all the fancy equipment in a front-line fight. Supply lines get strained, things get ugly fast."
If the quarians were unable to fight the geth without an "instant win button" viral weapon, how the hell do you expect them to survive against the "eat ships for breakfest" Reapers without any such advantage, AND while dragging down everyone else?
And if it was that simple, don't you think they would have done that when fighting the GETH. The fleet CAN'T be split - the civilian ships are too fragile to survive any encounter without the military ships, and the military ships are completely dependant on the civilian ships for supplies via shuttle runs in-between. No civilian ships = no food, fuel, medicine, or repair materials for the military fleet. And they can't stock up on those things indivadually, because every single ship is overpacked with people. And moving people from one ship to another doesn't work, because that ship would have to move supplies to another ship, which in turn would have to move supplies and personel, and it would just go on and on. There literally IS no room in the Migrant Fleet for such rearanging.

2. And the reason anyone has to BELIEVE Tali's claims, when the source of the information is a geth that was working with Cerberus, is....?
Second, Tali tells you that the quarians didn't debate on war until they DID know the effects of Xen's weapons. After all, Xen isn't completely insane - she's not going to publicly reveal something that could potentally endanger herself.
And third, would it ever have come to that if the geth had openly shown they were friendly? Like disclaiming the Heretics, or openly trying to invite people to talk, or journey out of the Veil unarmed to speak with others? Not killing all the preivous peace deligations would have helped too. The fact that the geth are so misunderstood isn't helped by the geth's seeming unwillingness or lack of desire to change that outlook the public has of them. Again, the geth are just as responcible for this conflict with their lack of positive action to change public outlook on them.

3. NO. It WASN'T.
The quarians DON'T want a war.
In fact, Tali tells you on the Alerei that most quarians resent themselves for the Morning War, NOT the geth. Halfway through the ship, when having the converstaion at the Console, select the options "That's a bad idea" and then "Then take it back" to hear Shepard question Tali as to why the quarians never tried to reclaim Rannoch. Tali will admit that it's out of guilt for perpetuating the conflict, since most quarians feel they jumped the gun with the geth. They feel they are the one's to blame for causeing the war because they misjudged what the geth were and how far they came, and for likely giving the geth such a negitive view of organics in general. So, NO, they AREN'T looking for an excuse to fight. They simply became desperate when the Reapers invaded and attacked when they thought no other choice existed. If they thought other options existed, they would have TAKEN them, as evidenced by how quickly the fleet stood down when Shepard ordered them to stop.
Ad the fact that it conencides so perfectly is PROOF that the Reapers were the cause of the war. Your own exact statement about it not being even a month early is only PROOF that the Reapers were the thing that drove the quarians to attack now. NOT a grudge. Also, the time-frame suggests that the quarians were debating on this for at least a month before the Reaper invasion. They also only just attacked at around the time of the Tuchanka mission. The Reapers were the thing that spurned them to take imediate action, even though it was an action that most did not agree with.
Just like Shepard with the Alpha Relay, Not an action Shepard agreed with, but still one that had to be taken, because no other alternitives. That's the position the quarians were in.

4. But that's NOT how humans were acting on Earth. They didn't compromise their morals when given the choice between extended life and instant death. "Pure survival instinct" isn't justifiable, as it makes it seem like the geth have not evolved at all since the Morning War.

5. And I'm telling you that is complete Bull. The geth and quarians are the SAME. The geth have no more to be proud of, and nothing that makes them any better at ALL.

6. The entire galaxy fighting and resisting the certin death the Reapers bring seems to say the exact opposate. They know they are basically fighting a losing battle, but hell if they care. They're going to die fighting for what they believe in. Same thing as the protheans in the last cycle.

7. The species that opened the rachni relay were the Salarians (and yes that was indeed in the Codex).
But the difference is that unlike the geth, the Alliance oepnly disclamed and disavowed Cerberus's actions as representitive of themselves, and made every effort to stop Cerberus. The geth didn't. Granted, IDK what the exact reason the True Geth were building colonies in the Armstrong Cluster was, but if that was for anti-Heretic action, actually attacking them would have helped instead of waiting for the Heretics to come to them - both at the Armsrting Cluster, and with the Heretic's virus.
Even then, the geth still did nothing to let the rest of the galaxy know the Heretics didn't represent their views - exactally what everyone else DIDN'T do. The salarians disavowed their rouge "Leauge of One." The turians disavowed the Taterus Sepertists. The Alliance disavowed Cerberus. The asari disavowed the Ardat-Yakshi. The geth did NOT disavow the Heretics, and openly let them conduct operations against organics, well aware of what the end result would be. That certenly seems like justificataction to throw stones to the avarage onlooker who doesn't know what Shepard and Co do.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 15 mai 2013 - 01:28 .

[silverexile17s]

Morlath wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

And what if there IS no valid reason to the geth's use of biological WMD's? We certinly haven't seen any evidence that states the geth had no choice in using them. If anything, the geth had more then enough oppertunity to avoid it coming to the use of WMD's. My point is this: Is the thought that the geth overreacted really that bad? We KNOW they did - hell, Legion himself admits that the entire reason the geth became caretakers for Rannoch and the other worlds is because they are trying to repent for the loss of life, even if they don't regret the actual rebellion.
The differnece is that the quarians had justifiable fears and reasons for their reaction, even if they did end up taking it too far.

What justifiable reason was there for the geth to butcher women and children in the millions? Not to mention unaffliliated alien visitors? Self-defense is one thing, but some people on here confuse self-defense with armed retaliation and escliation of conflict - the exact opposate of self-defense, as you are now the one attacking. Defending yourself is fine, but going out and killing that person's wife, kids, siblings, parents, relitives, neighbors, co-workers and so-forth is mass murder. The quarians reacted viloently to the geth because (A) unlike organics, all geth have the capabilaty to become walking weapons, and ( they felt that it was either them or the geth, what with the possibility of the geth going rampant, or the Council coming down and starting a war anyway.

Also, in ME2, Legion outright tells you that the quarians accounts of the Morning War are "largely the same." In other words, the public record is pretty much accurate. The public record that says the quarians suffered "unthinkable genocide" at the hands of the geth. So, basically, yes - the geth did kill all those people unessessarily, almost to the point of not caring about the Morning War. Just look at Adas. A mining colony that posed no threat to it's geth population. And yet, the geth slaughtered them. No prisioners. No survivors. No unarmed civilians allowed to escape. Just outright slaughter. That pretty much sums up how the geth treated the majority of the quarians.
Hell, even EDI comments on this. She even goes as far as to say that the geth's inabilaty to develop true individual prefrences, like a stand-alone A.I. such as herself, caused the geth to devaluize individual lives. They literally felt nothing toward killing millions, including any desire to stop. Only afterwords, when they began to comprehend emotinal attachment, did they start to feel remorse for killing so many.
I'm sorry, but it's made quite clear that the massive genocide of the quarians rests with the geth.

I don't understand this. How is the Quarians having "justifiable fears" of an attack that may or may not have happened okay to start a war with a newly sentient species BUT that newly sentient species must be forever
damned in people's eyes for taking their self-protection too far when they, as you agree, didn't even understand the concept of such a thing?

- It's okay to create a synthetic species with programming that skirts AI without giving it any understanding of what life is, means or the value of life itself.
- It's okay to use this species as slaves.
- It's okay to freak out when this species suddenly crosses that line into sentience.
- It's okay to decide that rather than attempt to talk and educate this species in what it means to be alive and the value of life outside of protecting onself, that you instead attempt to commit synthetic genocide.

The synthetic species, not really understanding anything but the threat to its new life, attacks and defends itself and then takes the war into genocidal numbers until the creators are forced to flee. The synthetic life then decides it wants to isolate itself from all organics, most likely to PROTECT itself from organics since the only organic species it has known ended up trying to destroy it.

- It's okay for that organic species to then attempt to wipe out this synthetic life 300 years later the moment they feel they have the chance to win.

However it's apparently NOT okay to admit the Geth went to far but believe that they might have actually learnt some value of life considering their "all species has the right to grow in their own way" mentality. Apparently it's NOT okay for this synthetic species, faced with its own extinction yet again, to turn to another synthetic race in desperation. Because hey, the Reapers want to kill every organic race in the universe and an organic race has TWICE tried to kill the Geth...

The double standards on a new species trying to grow is amazing.

Did the Geth commit horrors? Absolutely. Did the Geth decide that the Heretics having a right to their own path and opinion outway the damage they would do to organics? Yes.

Did the Quarians over react to cause the Morning War in the first place? Absolutely. Did the Quarians then attack the Geth at every opportunity they could and look to kill the entire Geth species in ME3. Without a doubt.

And are the Geth attempting to find an understanding of what life is and what their place is within the universe? There's enough hints throughout Legion's talks to suggest this is the case.

And let me finish of with this. There is a reason Western law has innocent until proven guilty and that's because it's very difficult to 100% prove a negative. If anyone believes that the Geth deserve destruction then, regardless of what is said, nothing is going to affect their opinion. However I argue that if you're looking to prove the Geth deserve destruction then there's enough in ME2 and ME3 to say that while they aren't innocent parties in any of the conflicts, there's enough blame to go around that they don't deserve an automatic death sentence during the Rannoch story.

Again, you don't get it.
The geth are walking weapons, like the mutants in the Marvel Universe. They have the capabilaty to kill with a single flick of their wrists. They aren't supposed to be alive or have ideals. And yet, these beings with such destructive potental are suddenly showing signs of intelligence. That wouldn't scare you? The ideal that an entire population of walking guns could suddenly go berserk and destroy everything?
-The geth were NEVER ment to become synthetic life. They weren't even ment to be more then overglorified drones. And the original programming did NOT skirt A.I. programming. The geth altered themselves to be closer to an A.I., changing so gradually that the quarians never noticed.
-Once again, they were ment to be tools. Nothing else. Go to a factory plant and look at the automated car assembly. Or a machine that plants seeds. Or a bomb disposal robot. Are those slaves? THAT'S what the geth were supposed to be - adaptible tools of labor and war. Nothing else. They were NEVER ment to be alive. And you need to be alive to be a slave.
-They were NEVER ment to reach that level. They were ment to be guns that could multitask. Nothing else. They were not ment to be any more alive then the computer or digital device you are using to type right now.
-Once again, it was inconvivable that a machine that was built to kill and serve would have any concept of material wants or needs. It it really wrong to assume a gun isn't going to shoot something? It ISN't "synthetic genocide" if the thing isn't alive. And no one knew the geth were truly alive. And even if they did, then the situation isn't that different then how people see the Reapers. If your family or loved ones were potentally on the line, wouldn't you pull the trigger on the potentally unstable death machine? That's the situation the quarians were in, and even if you disagree with the choice, you can hardly begrudge it.

And AGAIN, defending oneself doens't translate to the premediatated assault against quarian civilain centers, and the mass slaughter of millions of innocents. Don't accuse the quarians of being the ones that took it too far - it takes TWO to tango. There were millions of quarians that were unable, or unwilling, to fight. They weren't any form of threat, yet they were massicared. HOW is that fair? Isolation is one thing. Mass murder is another. And that brings up another question - WHY did the geth fight the quarians in the first place? Because as you yourself just stated, they could have isolated themselves - they could have packed their bags and left the Percsus Veil themselves. And alot more people would have sympathised with the geth for being the bigger person and backing off from an unessessary fight. Instead, they went completely off the wall with the quarians and butchered everyone.

-ONCE AGAIN, that was because they thought the ONLY alternitive was to DIE at the hands of the Reapers, AND because the geth never showed any desire to negotiate in the past.

And AGAIN, the geth already HAVE admitted they went too far, as Legion tells you they clean the quarian's worlds as a form of repentance for their actions. And if they truly believed in that, they would never have let the Heretics leave to bring an end to all organics under Sovergein for personal gain. And that ideal reversed pretty qucikly when the Heretics turned around and threatended the True Geth, didn't it? The geth shot down all ships that tried to make peace with them and burned all their own bridges. They have no one but themselves to blame for not having anyone esle to turn to.

So in other words.... double standards my ass.

Did the geth butcher millions needlessly when there were alternitives? YES. Did they know better? According to the server that many tote as proof of geth intent, YES. Did the geth make any effort to let others know that the Heretics were not a representation of their common beliefs? NO. Did the geth make any effort to let the galactic community know their ideals, agendas, and lack of desire to bring harm to others? NO.

Did the quarians have justifiable reasons to be scared of the walking death machines? YES.. Did they have the threat of the Council coming in to wage their own war if they found out looming over their  heads? YES. Did the quarians have any proof what-so-ever that the geth ever wanted peace, were ever peaceful, or were ever anything but murderers? NO.

Have the geth made any attempts to make peaceful contact with the galaxy, or any attempts to try for a peaceful co-habitation with the other races? NO. Have they consistantly screwed others over to save themselves? YES.

I'm Sorry, but again I point out that for everything you find that's negitive for the quarians and positive for the geth, there is an equal and opposate thing that is positive for the quarians and negitive for the geth. BOTH are equally at fault. There is NO "more justified" side. It's all about perspective, and the knowledge that nither side is more just then the other.

And in responce to your ending statement, I remind you that the exact same is true of the quarians. For everything they did wrong, there is something the geth did wrong as well.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 15 mai 2013 - 01:28 .

[remydat]

Silver,

Your thoughts on why it exists are circular reasoning and basically a** backwards. The laws that say the Geth should not exist predate their existence. By definition then the Council prejudged the Geth without the Geth doing anything to warrant such prejudgment which cannot be anything but prejudice.

Second, the Quarians decided to kill them before the Geth had shown any evidence that they intended to be violent against the Geth. Again, they prejudged them which by definition is prejudice.

So the fundamental problem with your logic is the prejudice that predated any Geth violence is the very reason the Geth became violent. The prejudice was the cause and the violence the effect but you keep trying to pretend the violence was the cause and the prejudice was the effect hence why I say it is circular and a** backwards.

[remydat]

As for my comments to Shotgun about Xen.  Here is what she said when I said Xen was prejudiced.  She basically said she loved her and supported her effectively enslaving the Geth ie another sentient race. 

So sorry, that sounds like she considers her a hero in my book which she is entitled to do but then I am entitled to say advocating the enslavement of another race as what should have been done in the first place is in fact supporting prejudice mainly because you view your form of life superior to theirs.  Sure sounds like she actively agrees with Xen's desire to enslave the Geth to me.

I mean let's call a spade a spade.  What else am I suppose to conclude?  It's like slavery is wrong except when it is done to the Geth.  Killing unarmed non combatants is wrong except when it is done to the Geth.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Xen is the Quarian version of The Illusive Man. I love her. Reduce the Geth in number down to a size where they are manageable and seize control of their consensus as what should have been done in the first place.

I'm glad you posted that video. She sounds perfectly sane. I want her on my team researching countermeasures against the reapers. I wish they did more with her in ME3 and didn't turn her into a mad scientist, but there's the difference between Drew Karpyshyn and Mac Walters.

Modifié par remydat, 15 mai 2013 - 02:58 .

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...

1. Firstly, it's the absolute WORST time to start a war. There is no way that this new war is going to end with the Quarians getting out without damages. They are going to lose people, they are going to lose ships and they are going to be a lot weaker when having to face the Reapers.

No, the Reapers arriving was an excuse to attack the Geth.

As for your last point, I think you're missing something. I'm not saying that the Geth killing children was right (although I stand by the opinion that WMDs are different than house-to-house assassinations), however I'm saying that just because the Geth did so during the Morning War does not mean the Quarians should be willing to do it in ME3.

2. Each Geth becomes a full blooded AI, an independent creature, and so they'll have the choice on who to side with. It's the same way as not knowing if someone is going to panic and run or stand and fight.

3. And this has been explained to you. People do crazy things when they're scared or when they're under threat, they "sell their souls" in the vain hope of living one more day than dying today.

If there are people in horror camps, you can't guarentee at all that someone isn't going to turn traitor just so they can live another day at the expense of another even if it's obvious they'll be killed at some point.

4. By the same mentality the Krogan shouldn't be trusted even if the Genophage is cured or the Turians shouldn't be trusted once they get the Krogan ground troops.

Every species does things for selfish reasons in order to keep surviving.

1. Absolutely worst time looking from the council's point of view. The council will not allow Quarians to do what they did in any other time. And Quarians are gonna be freaking extinct if the Reapers hit their live ships, not just loose lives.

Why the hell not? Geth made the Quarians suffer for 300 years and killed billions, exiled them from their own world. So why shouldn't Quarians want payback?

2. Geth being independent doesn't mean they won't use consensus as their method of government. They only care about themselves. So there is nothing to say they won't switch sides again.

3. Doing crazy things is one thing, siding with Reapers is another. You want to forget everything Geth done and want to trust them in a war against the Reapers knowing they already allied with Reapers twice?

4. Turians wish to work with Krogan. If they wish to co-exsist, I don't have to stand in the way. Again, no other side have actively helped the Reapers.

remydat wrote...

You want the Geth to pay with extinction
which the Quarians did not pay with. I already told you before happy to
kill both of them. Happy to kill the war mongers on both sides.

I have no intention of just making the Geth pay with extinction. Every Geth is responsible for what they done because of their consensus. Geth have done far worse than any other race and I have no intent to forgive and forget. I intend to use the Geth as cannon fodder against Reapers and to improve Quarians lives giving them a chance to redeem themselves. Then I am gonna kill them along with their Reaper gods. That's more than those Geth f***s deserve. If I didn't know the ending, I'd just kill them at Rannoch.

It's clear Morlath and remy don't want to blame Geth for anything they done even when they have done far worse than any other race. You wish to trust them knowing there is no way they can be trusted and you want to blame  everything on the Quarians. I at least admit Quarians were wrong during the start of the MW. You don't even want to blame Geth for the genocide they did or siding with Reapers twice.

I am done here.

Modifié par S.A.K, 15 mai 2013 - 05:43 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I consider the Geth to be machines: i.e. not alive. What she was advocating should have been one of the options at Rannoch. It would have been an interesting twist to the story.

But you went all Godwin on me on the last page.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 15 mai 2013 - 04:50 .

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

I consider the Geth to be machines: i.e. not alive. What she was advocating should have been one of the options at Rannoch. It would have been an interesting twist to the story.

But you went all Godwin on me on the last page.

And the game makes it perfectly clear that they are alive.  Your refusal to accept that is no less prejudiced than any other form of prejudice.  Of course, I don't really care because this is just a fictional story but it is what it is.  I see no reason to pretend it is not prejudice when it clearly meets the definition of the word.

I mean honestly, what do you want me to call it?  

And I just find it amusing Silver keeps trying to tell me you don't share Xen's views when you clearly do.  Of course, Silver being Silver, he will probably just go ramble on about something else and say I don't understand anything despite you confirming what was already clear from your previous posts.

Modifié par remydat, 15 mai 2013 - 04:57 .

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

I have no intention of just making the Geth pay with extinction. Every Geth is responsible for what they done because of their consensus. Geth have done far worse than any other race and I have no intent to forgive and forget. I intend to use the Geth as cannon fodder against Reapers and to improve Quarians lives giving them a chance to redeem themselves. Then I am gonna kill them along with their Reaper gods. That's more than those Geth f***s deserve. If I didn't know the ending, I'd just kill them at Rannoch.

It's clear you and remy don't want to blame Geth for everything they done even when they have done far worse than any other race. You wish to trust them knowing there is no way they can be trusted and you want to blame  everything on the Quarians. I at least admit Quarians were wrong during the start of the MW. You don't even want to blame Geth for the genocide they did or siding with Reapers twice.

I am done here.

I just have to point out SAK.  You are responding to my post so not sure why in the bold you say you and remy as if you are not responding to my post, lol.  The hate just whips you into a frenzy I suppose, lol.  Take a deep breath.  This is fiction.

And you admit the Quarians were wrong about the MW because there is no way for them not to be wrong.  They attacked a group that were currently fulfilling the needs and desires the Quarians programmed them to do.

Where your argument falls short is you pretend cause and effect does not exist.  You pretend that the vicious attempt to wipe the Geth from the face of the earth is not the direct cause for the Geth's crimes.  You pretend the Quarian's seeing the Geth as just machines was not the direct cause of the Geth not learning morality because people don't teach machines morality because they are just machines.

In short, all you do is admit the part of the crime that no sensible and rational person can deny the Quarians are guilty of and then beat your chest with pride as if you have made some noble gesture when the real goal is to use this admission as cover to then deny the obvious effects of the crime as if cause and effect is an illusion.

The Quarian's were basically a dude who unintentionally got a chick pregnant and then tried to punch the chick in the stomach and abort the baby because he didn't intend to have a baby.  Then when the baby is still born, he refuses to teach it morality and instead tries to kill it for getting too uppitty and asking uncomfortable questions.

The only difference between the above scenario is the idiot dude forgot the kid he unintentionally brought into this world was a sentient machine that was born with the ability to kill his f**king a** for being a douchebag parent.  And worse, because of his sh*tty parenting the rest of society has to pay when this kid with no real concept of morality but who this tutored quite well in matters of murder against unarmed non combatants fights back.

Modifié par remydat, 15 mai 2013 - 05:32 .

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...
I just have to point out SAK.  You are responding to my post so not sure why in the bold you say you and remy as if you are not responding to my post, lol.  The hate just whips you into a frenzy I suppose, lol.  Take a deep breath.  This is fiction.

And you admit the Quarians were wrong about the MW because there is no way for them not to be wrong.  They attacked a group that were currently fulfilling the needs and desires the Quarians programmed them to do.

Where your argument falls short is you pretend cause and effect does not exist.  You pretend that the vicious attempt to wipe the Geth from the face of the earth is not the direct cause for the Geth's crimes.  You pretend the Quarian's seeing the Geth as just machines was not the direct cause of the Geth not learning morality because people don't teach machines morality because they are just machines.

In short, all you do is admit the part of the crime that no sensible and rational person can deny the Quarians are guilty of and then beat your chest with pride as if you have made some noble gesture when the real goal is to use this admission as cover to then deny the obvious effects of the crime as if cause and effect is an illusion.

The Quarian's were basically a dude who unintentionally got a chick pregnant and then tried to punch the chick in the stomach and abort the baby because he didn't intend to have a baby.  Then when the baby is still born, he refuses to teach it morality and instead tries to kill it for getting too uppitty and asking uncomfortable questions.

The only difference between the above scenario is the idiot dude forgot the kid he unintentionally brought into this world was a sentient machine that was born with the ability to kill his f**king a** for being a douchebag parent.

That was responding to you and Morlath. I made a mistake when copying stuff but fixed that mistake now.

Nobody has to admit Quarians did something wrong by trying to deactivate the Geth. That's what anybody will do when their machines malfunction. I said Quarians were wrong because I consider Geth to be living beings. Geth becoming sentient wasn't expected by the Quarians. So it was an accident. Geth were intended to be machines, so there is no reason to teach them morals. But Quarians must have taught them some because it's clear Geth had morals based on the footage from Geth server mission. Are you saying everything Legion showed in that mission was a fabrication?

[nos_astra]

Morlath wrote...
And that's a massive point. The Geth weren't given any moral control because [1] they fooled themselves into the thinking of "we aren't making AIs". So when the time came to pay the piper, the Geth had nothing in which to balance their actions against.

But apparently it doesn't matter. [2] People want the Geth to have all the blame.

Are you an expert on AI programming or how did you come to this [1] conclusion? You seem to insinuate that the creation of the geth was not a genuine accident, something that happened unexpectedly, but a situation the quarians should have been aware of and which could have been prevented. 

Considering VIs were allowed and the geth aren't conventional AIs (no quantum blue box) I find this incredibly biased.

It doesn't surprise me that you use your own headcanon to justify then shifting the responsibility for the quarians near-extinction to the quarians. It's called blaming the victim. 

There are mitigating factors when it comes to the geths overreaction, sure. But that doesn't make them innocent and it sure as hell doesn't make the quarians evil morons. Unless you really have an attachment to simple stories.

Now, let me ask you: [2] At what point are the geth responsible for any of their actions? 

Wiping out the quarians? The quarians' own fault.
The wrecking havoc on Eden Prime? Sovereign's fault. Saren's fault. The heretics' fault. Never the geths'.
The Battle of the Citadel? Saren, Sovereign, the heretics.
The occupation of Rannoch, hostile action against everyone who dared coming close, forcing the quarians to live as refugees? Never the geths' fault. 
Siding with the Reapers? The quarians' fault, of course. 

And how's that?
Because the geth only develop an understanding for sentimentality and try imitating emotions when it's convenient for the writers to make them sympathtic. Legion can become Shepard's second biggest fan (after Conrad Verner) and they were oh-so-desperate and scared that they abandoned rationality when their suprisingly stupid plan of uploading themselves into an unmovable, undefendable platform, without informing the quarians that their planet is now inhabitable and free for them to move in, fell apart.

Makes me wonder why AIs are banned. At least the geth apparently don't evolve at all and even sitting on all the data about the quarians for 300 years didn't tip them off in the slightest how the quarians tick.

Modifié par klarabella, 15 mai 2013 - 05:58 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Remy you're getting into areas that really do not belong on this forum because you have no clue about them. Please stick to the Legion, the Geth, and the Quarians, and leave pregnancy out of it.

[remydat]

SAK,

The Quarians shot at the Geth. That is not deactivation.  You can't justify it if the Geth are alive so you have to try and devalue their existence in order to do so which is essentially an admission that you know it was wrong.

There is no evidence the Quarians taught them morals. Just like there is no evidence the Quarians taught them what a soul was. The Geth most likely read about morals just like they read about a soul. However, if I read something in a book and then reality shows me something completely different then I will go with reality. The Geth may have read about morals but when reality showed them that morals don't mean sh*t because the Quarians kept trying to kill them then whatever they learned was not worth the paper it was written on.

If I read that murder is bad but then my parents are murdering my siblings and me en mass then what do you think sticks. Some sh*t I read in a book or the cold hard reality of my siblings and I being mowed down most likely by the very same people who wrote in this book that killing is bad but yet are currently trying to kill us? 

Modifié par remydat, 15 mai 2013 - 06:08 .

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Remy you're getting into areas that really do not belong on this forum because you have no clue about them. Please stick to the Legion, the Geth, and the Quarians, and leave pregnancy out of it.

Sorry when you guys keep throwing around the Quarians did not intend to create a sentient race as if that somehow absolves them of their obligation then I think an unwanted pregancy is an apt comparison.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

remydat wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Remy you're getting into areas that really do not belong on this forum because you have no clue about them. Please stick to the Legion, the Geth, and the Quarians, and leave pregnancy out of it.

Sorry when you guys keep throwing around the Quarians did not intend to create a sentient race as if that somehow absolves them of their obligation then I think an unwanted pregancy is an apt comparison.

It is not an apt comparison. This is a warning. Do it again. I will contact a moderator and get the thread locked.

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

It is not an apt comparison. This is a warning. Do it again. I will contact a moderator and get the thread locked.

Do what you have to do.  I don't think I have violated any forum rules but if a moderator thinks I have then let them come tell me.  Whether a creator intends to create a life or not is irrelevant regarding their responsibility over that created life.  That is true whether we are talking about the fictional Geth or an accidental pregnancy.  Not sure what you find offensive in that statement.

I also find it odd that somehow pregnancy is not appropriate for these forms when one of the biggest decisions in the entire game is whether to continue to allow the Krogan be punished because the Turians and Salarians decided for them that their pregnancies are unwanted by the galaxy.  I am pretty sure I have seen you in genophage threads discussing these pregnancies as well or am I mistaken?

Modifié par remydat, 15 mai 2013 - 06:20 .

[The Heretic of Time]

I agree with you OP. Legion, like many other characters, got assassinated by ME3's writing team (and I'm not talking about the in-game opportunity to shoot Legion through the optics).

[PsyrenY]

remydat wrote...

The Quarian's were basically a dude who unintentionally got a chick pregnant and then tried to punch the chick in the stomach and abort the baby because he didn't intend to have a baby.  Then when the baby is still born, he refuses to teach it morality and instead tries to kill it for getting too uppitty and asking uncomfortable questions.

There are ways to discuss/allude to this kind of subject matter but the way you chose is not it.

[remydat]

Optimystic_X wrote...

There are ways to discuss/allude to this kind of subject matter but the way you chose is not it.

OMG, he made an analogy about babies.  How inappropriate.  Oh hey, let's sabotage the genophage and kill unwanted Krogan babies.  Forgive me if I am confused.

Honestly, if you guys are that offended, probably not a good idea to keep bringing this fact up as all it will do is ensure it remains a topic of discussion.