826 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I agree with you OP. Legion, like many other characters, got assassinated by ME3's writing team (and I'm not talking about the in-game opportunity to shoot Legion through the optics).

That was one fine assassination though. The fact after he gets stabbed in the back and shot three times in the face and with his dying breath all he wants the Quarian to tell him is if he has a soul pretty much serves as a microcosm of the fundamental issue of the conflict.  Of course, in this scenario it takes the extermination of the Geth for Tali to finally admit it but hey she is cute and cuddly so we can let that slide, lol.

Modifié par remydat, 15 mai 2013 - 06:42 .

[The Heretic of Time]

remydat wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I agree with you OP. Legion, like many other characters, got assassinated by ME3's writing team (and I'm not talking about the in-game opportunity to shoot Legion through the optics).

That was one fine assassination though. The fact after he gets stabbed in the back and shot three times in the face and with his dying breath all he wants the Quarian to tell him is if he has a soul pretty much serves as a microcosm of the fundamental issue of the conflict.  Of course, in this scenario it takes the extermination of the Geth for Tali to finally admit it but hey she is cute and cuddly so we can let that slide, lol.

Even when Tali is not alive (I have playthroughs with her dead) I still shoot Legion through the optics. I see it as an act of mercy. The writing team already assassinated him, I simply finish the job in-game. It's the merciful thing to do.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Silver,

Your thoughts on why it exists are circular reasoning and basically a** backwards. The laws that say the Geth should not exist predate their existence. By definition then the Council prejudged the Geth without the Geth doing anything to warrant such prejudgment which cannot be anything but prejudice.

Second, the Quarians decided to kill them before the Geth had shown any evidence that they intended to be violent against the Geth. Again, they prejudged them which by definition is prejudice.

So the fundamental problem with your logic is the prejudice that predated any Geth violence is the very reason the Geth became violent. The prejudice was the cause and the violence the effect but you keep trying to pretend the violence was the cause and the prejudice was the effect hence why I say it is circular and a** backwards.

Once again, you seem to be afraid to qoute the previous sentance. And don't give me BS about starting pyrimids, because qouting only the most recent responce is not that hard (I know, I learned).

And ONCE AGAIN, that is the fault of YOUR logic, not mine. The geth were attacked because they ran the risk of becoming a rebelling faction. The quarians simply prioritized their people over the potentally unstable killing machines. You are basically saying the malefunctioning and potentally hostile terminator is worth more then your own family. THAT is "a** backwards" logic. There was a jsutifiable fear of what the geth could do.
And at least you FINALLY are understanding that the Council's laws were the central cause of the conflict, not the quarians, and that they were SEPERATE VIEWS. And AGAIN, the geth weren't created to BE A.I.s. It was something that happened by accident. The quarians weren't trying to create A.I.s.
But the fact that you are no longer confusing the Council's prejudice with the quarians ideals is progress.

Now, how many times must I say "malefunctioning loaded gun" before you realize that's what every single geth basically was in the eyes of the quarians. And AGAIN, I must remind you that attacking them was NOT the quarians's defalut option. First they let it slide hoping it would rectify itself. Then they tried reprogramming so that they wouldn't be forced into a fight. Finally, when ALL OTHER OPTIONS were seemingly exausted, they decided their families weren't worth making a coint toss on. It is NOT prejudice to assume a gun will shoot people. By YOUR logic, you should press a gun to your brother's head and flip a coin to see weather or not it doesn't do what it was made to do and shoot him dead? Because that's basically what you are advocating. It was a valid belief that a gun would act like a gun. NOT prejudice.

So, AGAIN, the fundimental problem is in YOUR logic, not mine. The geth were built to be war tools - war was one of the key reasons they were created to begin with. They are walking weapons - they can pick you up by the throat and kill you without ever needing armament. You really think that's NOT something to be concerned about? The geth were fundementally made to be weapons - the natural thing to believe is that they would act like weapons. And if even one goes berserk, it can kill dozens. If ALL of them go berserk, it could doom them ALL. They were a public safety risk - and you are trying to make risking your brother, your family, and everyone else on a coin toss sound like a good idea. Prejudice had ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with it, since the ONLY reason the quarians tried to purge them was because they became a risk to the entire population. The fact that the quarians DIDN'T resort to viloence right off the bat and tried reprogramming, and before that letting the problem try to work itself out, is PROOF that your "prejudice" assertion is the REAL "a** backward" statement.

Hence the reason why, ONCE AGAIN, the only person using circular logic is YOU.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 15 mai 2013 - 07:19 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

As for my comments to Shotgun about Xen.  Here is what she said when I said Xen was prejudiced.  She basically said she loved her and supported her effectively enslaving the Geth ie another sentient race. 

So sorry, that sounds like she considers her a hero in my book which she is entitled to do but then I am entitled to say advocating the enslavement of another race as what should have been done in the first place is in fact supporting prejudice mainly because you view your form of life superior to theirs.  Sure sounds like she actively agrees with Xen's desire to enslave the Geth to me.

I mean let's call a spade a spade.  What else am I suppose to conclude?  It's like slavery is wrong except when it is done to the Geth.  Killing unarmed non combatants is wrong except when it is done to the Geth.

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Xen is the Quarian version of The Illusive Man. I love her. Reduce the Geth in number down to a size where they are manageable and seize control of their consensus as what should have been done in the first place.

I'm glad you posted that video. She sounds perfectly sane. I want her on my team researching countermeasures against the reapers. I wish they did more with her in ME3 and didn't turn her into a mad scientist, but there's the difference between Drew Karpyshyn and Mac Walters.

Loved her CHARACTER. NOT her ideals. They are NOT THE SAME THING.
This isn't rocket science - it shouldn't be that hard for you to understand that liking a character is not the same as agreeing with their views.

"So sorry," but saying that she likes Xen as a character, and that she understands Xen's ideals and the logic that founded them, does NOT mean she agrees with the active practice of them. It's just like how people like The Illusive Man as a Character, and understand the logci behind his actions, and yet don't agree with them. Just look at Jacob Taylor - a Cerberus agent that understand the Illusive Man's agendas, but doesn't agree with it. Look at Saren -despite all the questionable things he did in his carer, he was idolized as a hero by the other Spectres, including Nhilus.
So, ONCE AGAIN, YOU  are confussed as usual. Saying that you understand someone, and admire traits about them like intelligence, drive, and skill, does NOT mean you share their belief system. Even after all he did, Liara understood Saren's actions and even felt sympathy for him, saying that despite his harsh actions, he alwyas did what he thought was right. He stuck by his decisions, and at the very end, owned up to his mistakes. You can admire that, even if you detest the actions he took.
Besides, since you are someone that regularly resorts to Godwin's Law to try and gain the upper hand, you hardly have the right to talk about prejudice, especally when you say it's worth risking a coin toss on your family's life for the potentally unstable gun.
And she was saying why she understood the reasoning behind Xen's views, and respects her beliefs, WITHOUT necessarily agreeing with them. She noted that there was logical reasoning in Xen's calculations. She didn't say she endorsed the result or personal belief that fueled it.

And if you can "call a spade a spade," why do you struggle with the concept of calling a gun a gun? You act like killing unarmed combatants is RIGHT for the geth. And AGAIN, they had basically become a public security risk to the entire race. What else can you do in THAT situation?

In responce to that qoute, let me break it down so that YOU can understand:

She loves Xen as a character. That DOESN'T mean she endorses her beliefs. Just like how people like Saren and the Illusive Man and Aria T'Loak without endorsing their beliefs. Strike one.

Admirition for how one aproaches a siutation and reasons with it using nothing but cold logic does NOT mean she supports the ideals,  or the morals. Xen is skilled and smart - it's fine to idolize those elements and approching a problem logically. It doens't mean that she endorces Xen's ideals on the geth. Strike two.

Xen is intelligent, and doesn't let emotions get in her way. That is a very useful tool set, if utulized properly. One can admire her skills without agreeing with her beliefs. Just look at Mordin and the genophage - excelent skills and intelligence, but you can disagree with his views on the genophage if you desire to. Same with Miranda and Cerberus. Strike three.

Three strikes. You're out.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

It is not an apt comparison. This is a warning. Do it again. I will contact a moderator and get the thread locked.

Do what you have to do.  I don't think I have violated any forum rules but if a moderator thinks I have then let them come tell me.  Whether a creator intends to create a life or not is irrelevant regarding their responsibility over that created life.  That is true whether we are talking about the fictional Geth or an accidental pregnancy.  Not sure what you find offensive in that statement.

I also find it odd that somehow pregnancy is not appropriate for these forms when one of the biggest decisions in the entire game is whether to continue to allow the Krogan be punished because the Turians and Salarians decided for them that their pregnancies are unwanted by the galaxy.  I am pretty sure I have seen you in genophage threads discussing these pregnancies as well or am I mistaken?

It's because it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC. The topic was weather or not Legion's characterization between games was off. Once again, you scueeded in derailing the damn topic. And Pregnancy has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING TO DO with this. Creating a synthetic is NOT the same, because (A) you actually are INTENDING to create the initial machine, and ( it evolves PAST the intended end result of said project. The geth were INTENTIONALLY BUILT, and evolved under their OWN STEAM. NOT the same as an accidental pregnancy, which in unintentional all around. Creating a gun that's made to kill people is an INTENTIONAL ACTION. It taking a life of it's own is IT 'S OWN ACTION. NOT the fault of it's creators.
THAT'S her point - not only is it ever farther off topic, but it's completely irrlivent and has no bearing on the conversation becaus it doesn't fit in at ALL.
You want to discuss it, go to a topic about the genophage. And don't abandon it like you did with the "Would you cure the Genophage" one. But discussing it here is both insensitive and potentally insulting. Get some common sense, will you?!

Modifié par silverexile17s, 15 mai 2013 - 07:45 .

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

There are ways to discuss/allude to this kind of subject matter but the way you chose is not it.

OMG, he made an analogy about babies.  How inappropriate.  Oh hey, let's sabotage the genophage and kill unwanted Krogan babies.  Forgive me if I am confused.

Honestly, if you guys are that offended, probably not a good idea to keep bringing this fact up as all it will do is ensure it remains a topic of discussion.

I didn't say a damn thing about a baby there...

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

I agree with you OP. Legion, like many other characters, got assassinated by ME3's writing team (and I'm not talking about the in-game opportunity to shoot Legion through the optics).

That was one fine assassination though. The fact after he gets stabbed in the back and shot three times in the face and with his dying breath all he wants the Quarian to tell him is if he has a soul pretty much serves as a microcosm of the fundamental issue of the conflict.  Of course, in this scenario it takes the extermination of the Geth for Tali to finally admit it but hey she is cute and cuddly so we can let that slide, lol.

That's what is gets for trying to kill Shepard.

Btw, Tali admits Geth have a soul even in the peace option. Of course it's a good thing about a Quarian, so I guess you missed it.

[Jafroboy]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

I don't really like the Rannoch arc in general, to be honest. The direction they went with the geth willingly joining the Reapers, and the conclusion, just don't sit right with me. Another case of drama taking precedence over logic.

Same, for a start, after revealing that the huge geth army in ME1 was just a small part of the geth, they shoulda severely screwed the Quarians on their own.

2nd, WTF was with Legion turning on the geth so much? Disable the Geth dreadnaught shields? Why? It just encourages the Quarians to fight rather than retreat, I was screaming noooo at that point in game. Howd he even end up in that thingy anyway? 

[Morlath]

silverexile17s wrote...
1. Military protection for 50,000 ships, where the loss of even ONE ship will be a blow to their entire population, and where if even ONE of the three liveships is destroyed, half the quarians will starve, and a months worth of dextro-rations to be gifted EVERY DAY to the quarians, AND their imobility thanks to having to be so tightly grouped together and having to cluster around the liveships, making them both a massive target, AND impractical for combat since they will bog down everyone else by needing constant cover?

I love how you think that suicidal idea sounds good. Seriously, that isthe epitimy of a bad idea - look at Palaven and Earth. The Reapers handled them easily. How much worse do you think it will get if they all have to group into a single centralized slaughterfest around potentally defensless livehsips? They DON'T have that kind of capabilaty to mass-produce food for everyone because there isn't space for it. The quarians balance everything out in terms of storage. Stocking up on weapons and medicine and repair supplies means not stocking up on food. And thanks to their weak immune systems and fragile ships, the quarians would burn through those resources. Remember Kal'Reegar's words on the fleet?

"You've only seen our strike ops. Don't have all the fancy equipment in a front-line fight. Supply lines get strained, things get ugly fast."

If the quarians were unable to fight the geth without an "instant win button" viral weapon, how the hell do you expect them to survive against the "eat ships for breakfest" Reapers without any such advantage, AND while dragging down everyone else?

And if it was that simple, don't you think they would have done that when fighting the GETH. The fleet CAN'T be split - the civilian ships are too fragile to survive any encounter without the military ships, and the military ships are completely dependant on the civilian ships for supplies via shuttle runs in-between. No civilian ships = no food, fuel, medicine, or repair materials for the military fleet. And they can't stock up on those things indivadually, because every single ship is overpacked with people. And moving people from one ship to another doesn't work, because that ship would have to move supplies to another ship, which in turn would have to move supplies and personel, and it would just go on and on. There literally IS no room in the Migrant Fleet for such rearanging.

I never said it was that simple. I was raising the point that there are always other options than arming the civilians and putting them in the line of fire.

The fact of the matter is that no decision with the civilian ships would be ideal but if there was absolutely NO other way to handle the situation then the argument wouldn't be one of the issues splitting the Admiralty board.

2. And the reason anyone has to BELIEVE Tali's claims, when the source of the information is a geth that was working with Cerberus, is....?

So I ask you what I asked SAK somewhere else on this forum.

If you can't believe Legion about the Heretics, is the entire Legion Loyalty mission one single plan to convince Shepard that Legion is a friendly at the expensive of all those platforms and software?

That's the be-all, end-all of "we can't trust Legion about the Heretics" argument. You either think that the entire mission is a sacrificial setup or you believe Legion's story about the Heretic's having a different perspective than the other Geth.

So which is it, Silver? Are you THAT much of a Geth conspiracy theorist?

Second, Tali tells you that the quarians didn't debate on war until they DID know the effects of Xen's weapons. After all, Xen isn't completely insane - she's not going to publicly reveal something that could potentally endanger herself.

Doesn't mean she knows what would happen outside of the lab. Lab tests are like plans, they don't follow a script once put into the real world.

And third, would it ever have come to that if the geth had openly shown they were friendly? Like disclaiming the Heretics, or openly trying to invite people to talk, or journey out of the Veil unarmed to speak with others? Not killing all the preivous peace deligations would have helped too. The fact that the geth are so misunderstood isn't helped by the geth's seeming unwillingness or lack of desire to change that outlook the public has of them. Again, the geth are just as responcible for this conflict with their lack of positive action to change public outlook on them.

The Geth having an image problem isn't up for debate. I've already agreeed that they have one but there's only so far this one issue should be used to justify anything anti-Geth.

3. NO. It WASN'T.
The quarians DON'T want a war.
In fact, Tali tells you on the Alerei that most quarians resent themselves for the Morning War, NOT the geth. Halfway through the ship, when having the converstaion at the Console, select the options "That's a bad idea" and then "Then take it back" to hear Shepard question Tali as to why the quarians never tried to reclaim Rannoch. Tali will admit that it's out of guilt for perpetuating the conflict, since most quarians feel they jumped the gun with the geth. They feel they are the one's to blame for causeing the war because they misjudged what the geth were and how far they came, and for likely giving the geth such a negitive view of organics in general. So, NO, they AREN'T looking for an excuse to fight. They simply became desperate when the Reapers invaded and attacked when they thought no other choice existed. If they thought other options existed, they would have TAKEN them, as evidenced by how quickly the fleet stood down when Shepard ordered them to stop.

The general populous, sure. But the military and those in charge haven't shown that perspective and all that matters is what the Admiralty board believes.

Ad the fact that it conencides so perfectly is PROOF that the Reapers were the cause of the war. Your own exact statement about it not being even a month early is only PROOF that the Reapers were the thing that drove the quarians to attack now. NOT a grudge. Also, the time-frame suggests that the quarians were debating on this for at least a month before the Reaper invasion. They also only just attacked at around the time of the Tuchanka mission. The Reapers were the thing that spurned them to take imediate action, even though it was an action that most did not agree with.

Read almost the very first Spectre report at the beginning of the game. I think it's even before you go to Palavin and it talks about how the Quarians are recalling all their people to the fleet and were buying a LOT of new equipment. It even ends with a thought that they're thinking of going to war with the Geth and how that's a bad idea.

Just like Shepard with the Alpha Relay, Not an action Shepard agreed with, but still one that had to be taken, because no other alternitives. That's the position the quarians were in.

The Quarians were put into a position where they are willing to lose their entire species in the hopes of regaining their planet?

You can't have it both ways. Either the weapon was going to work without a hitch and there was no need to arm the civilian fleet or the Geth are so horrible that they are "obviously" going to side with the Reapers and so only the military should try to retake Rannoch. Which is it?

6. The entire galaxy fighting and resisting the certin death the Reapers bring seems to say the exact opposate. They know they are basically fighting a losing battle, but hell if they care. They're going to die fighting for what they believe in. Same thing as the protheans in the last cycle.

It's okay for every species in the galaxy to fight for their survival.
It's okay for every species to sacrifice entire fleets of their people for the chance the reast can escape.
It's okay for the Protheans to fight a war of nutritian and sacrifice entire worlds so that they could regroup.

It's not okay for the Geth to have an insane hope of surviving a war they didn't start (Rannoch) by siding with the only side that can balance the loss of all their programs and still give them some form of intelligence. Especially if they don't see any other way of surviving as a species.

The asari disavowed the Ardat-Yakshi.

Actually, the Ardat-Yakshi aren't disvowed. It's hinted in the game that Shepard and his crew are one of the only ones outside of the Asari people who know what the Ardat-Yakshi are. The same situation about Shepard and the Geth/Heretics.

[Morlath]

silverexile17s wrote...

Again, you don't get it.
The geth are walking weapons, like the mutants in the Marvel Universe. They have the capabilaty to kill with a single flick of their wrists. They aren't supposed to be alive or have ideals. And yet, these beings with such destructive potental are suddenly showing signs of intelligence. That wouldn't scare you? The ideal that an entire population of walking guns could suddenly go berserk and destroy everything?

You have no proof that every single Geth unit created in the beginning was armed. The Quarians built the Geth to do all areas of manual labour.

What's the point of arming a farming robot?
Why would a Geth unit working within a factory be armed?

Nonsense. The only "always armed" Geth we see in the MEU are the wall crawlers and any with more than two legs. Normal Geth units are still only armed with weapons that need to be held.

This argument doesn't hold water for what we see in-game.

-The geth were NEVER ment to become synthetic life. They weren't even ment to be more then overglorified drones. And the original programming did NOT skirt A.I. programming. The geth altered themselves to be closer to an A.I., changing so gradually that the quarians never noticed.

www.youtube.com/watch

Tali - Over time WE made small modifications to their programing....bringing them closer and closer to true AI status.

So yeah, try that one again.

-Once again, they were ment to be tools. Nothing else. Go to a factory plant and look at the automated car assembly. Or a machine that plants seeds. Or a bomb disposal robot. Are those slaves? THAT'S what the geth were supposed to be - adaptible tools of labor and war. Nothing else. They were NEVER ment to be alive. And you need to be alive to be a slave.
-They were NEVER ment to reach that level. They were ment to be guns that could multitask. Nothing else. They were not ment to be any more alive then the computer or digital device you are using to type right now.
-Once again, it was inconvivable that a machine that was built to kill and serve would have any concept of material wants or needs. It it really wrong to assume a gun isn't going to shoot something? It ISN't "synthetic genocide" if the thing isn't alive. And no one knew the geth were truly alive. And even if they did, then the situation isn't that different then how people see the Reapers. If your family or loved ones were potentally on the line, wouldn't you pull the trigger on the potentally unstable death machine? That's the situation the quarians were in, and even if you disagree with the choice, you can hardly begrudge it.

Re-read my point about them not all being armed and listen to Tali explain how the QUARIANS turned the Geth into AIs by their own meddling.

And AGAIN, defending oneself doens't translate to the premediatated assault against quarian civilain centers, and the mass slaughter of millions of innocents. Don't accuse the quarians of being the ones that took it too far - it takes TWO to tango. There were millions of quarians that were unable, or unwilling, to fight. They weren't any form of threat, yet they were massicared. HOW is that fair? Isolation is one thing. Mass murder is another. And that brings up another question - WHY did the geth fight the quarians in the first place? Because as you yourself just stated, they could have isolated themselves - they could have packed their bags and left the Percsus Veil themselves. And alot more people would have sympathised with the geth for being the bigger person and backing off from an unessessary fight. Instead, they went completely off the wall with the quarians and butchered everyone.

I do like the way you're trying to squeeze all the pro-Geth arguments into one thing and then use any point in the Geth-Quarian history to disprove them.

In the beginning the Geth had no concept about the santity of life because the Quarians didn't program it into them. The Geth were alive and being attacked so they responded in the only logical fashion - Destroy thy enemy and they enemy cannot destroy you.

Trying to judge the Geth on their actions during the MW by their post-MW growth is lazy.

I'm Sorry, but again I point out that for everything you find that's negitive for the quarians and positive for the geth, there is an equal and opposate thing that is positive for the quarians and negitive for the geth. BOTH are equally at fault. There is NO "more justified" side. It's all about perspective, and the knowledge that nither side is more just then the other.

And yet you're still trying to say that the Quarians are justified in attacking the Geth. I've admitted that the Geth didn't make things easy on themselves with the isolationist attitude even though it's a logical result from their experiences.

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

1. Absolutely worst time looking from the council's point of view. The council will not allow Quarians to do what they did in any other time. And Quarians are gonna be freaking extinct if the Reapers hit their live ships, not just loose lives.

Why the hell not? Geth made the Quarians suffer for 300 years and killed billions, exiled them from their own world. So why shouldn't Quarians want payback?

Okay that's just crap.

The Geth slaughtered the Quarians during the Morning War - Agreed.

The Geth forced the Quarians to stay on their ships for the next 300 years - Not even close.

At some point in time it because Quarian policy to continue using the Flotilla until they could retake Rannoch. The Quarians DECIDED that no other world could do. Hell they could have even designed a central station for the population rather than individual live ships.

2. Geth being independent doesn't mean they won't use consensus as their method of government. They only care about themselves. So there is nothing to say they won't switch sides again.

There's nothing to say the Salarians won't try to reintroduce the Genophage once the war is won. There's no proof the Salarians don't decide to use a bio weapon on another species that they have problems with.

3. Doing crazy things is one thing, siding with Reapers is another. You want to forget everything Geth done and want to trust them in a war against the Reapers knowing they already allied with Reapers twice?

The HERETICS sided with the Reapers - Blame the entire Geth.
ASARI sided with Saren - Blame the individuals alone
CERBERUS are using Reaper Tech and are causing problems with the war effect - Blame Cerberus but not Humanity.

4. Turians wish to work with Krogan. If they wish to co-exsist, I don't have to stand in the way. Again, no other side have actively helped the Reapers.

And until their very existence was threatened the Geth refused to side with the Reapers.

If you pull a gun on someone and threaten their life and the ONLY way that that person can see of surviving is to allie themselves with a serial killer who has no control over their impulses, do you really think they wouldn't do it?

I'm not saying it was the morally right thing to do in siding with the Reapers, I'm saying that the Geth were put into a position by the Quarian attack where the concensus felt they had no other choice.

[Morlath]

[quote]klarabella wrote...

[quote]Morlath wrote...
And that's a massive point. The Geth weren't given any moral control because [1] they fooled themselves into the thinking of "we aren't making AIs". So when the time came to pay the piper, the Geth had nothing in which to balance their actions against.

But apparently it doesn't matter. [2] People want the Geth to have all the blame.[/quote]

Are you an expert on AI programming or how did you come to this [1] conclusion? You seem to insinuate that the creation of the geth was not a genuine accident, something that happened unexpectedly, but a situation the quarians should have been aware of and which could have been prevented. 

Considering VIs were allowed and the geth aren't conventional AIs (no quantum blue box) I find this incredibly biased.
[/quote]

Because it's told to us in ME1

www.youtube.com/watch

End of story.

[quote]
It doesn't surprise me that you use your own headcanon to justify then shifting the responsibility for the quarians near-extinction to the quarians. It's called blaming the victim. 
[/quote]

And you have no idea what you're talking about.

I've repeatedly stated that the Geth went too far in retaliating against the Quarians.

[quote]
There are mitigating factors when it comes to the geths overreaction, sure. But that doesn't make them innocent and it sure as hell doesn't make the quarians evil morons. Unless you really have an attachment to simple stories.
[/quote]

When have I said it's this black-and-white?

[quote]
Now, let me ask you: [2] At what point are the geth responsible for any of their actions? 

Wiping out the quarians? The quarians' own fault.
[/quote]

The beginning of the Morning War? Quarians. Is it feasible to say that the Quarians not putting morality coding into the Geth opened the door for the Geth to react the way they did? Absolutely.

Did the Geth go to far? Whatever the reasoning and logical arguments that the Geth had at the time, without a doubt they did.

[qupte]
The wrecking havoc on Eden Prime? Sovereign's fault. Saren's fault. The heretics' fault. Never the geths'.
The Battle of the Citadel? Saren, Sovereign, the heretics.
[/quote]

Sovereign's, Saren's and the Heretics'.

Sorry, I don't blame a religion for its extremist actions, I blame Cerberus and not humanity for the slaughter on Sanctuary and I blame the Heretics and not the original Geth for Eden Prime.

[quote]
The occupation of Rannoch, hostile action against everyone who dared coming close, forcing the quarians to live as refugees? Never the geths' fault. 
[/quote]

You do remember that the Geth were trying to repair the planet as penance?

Give me one logical reason why the Geth should leave Rannoch. All anyone says is "because it's the Quarians homeworld and they want/need it!"

So a species should just hand over the planet it was born on because the species who gave birth to it and then tried to destroy it want/need it back?

[quote]
Siding with the Reapers? The quarians' fault, of course. 
[/quote]

An instinctive reaction to the need to survive without considering the moral implications.

[quote]
And how's that?
Because the geth only develop an understanding for sentimentality and try imitating emotions when it's convenient for the writers to make them sympathtic. Legion can become Shepard's second biggest fan (after Conrad Verner) and they were oh-so-desperate and scared that they abandoned rationality when their suprisingly stupid plan of uploading themselves into an unmovable, undefendable platform, without informing the quarians that their planet is now inhabitable and free for them to move in, fell apart.

Makes me wonder why AIs are banned. At least the geth apparently don't evolve at all and even sitting on all the data about the quarians for 300 years didn't tip them off in the slightest how the quarians tick.
[/quote]

And you have no proof that the Geth wouldn't have sent a message to the Quarians informing them of Rannoch being inhabitable again once the Sphere was completed.

As for unmovable. A ship is unmovable until it's finished but that doesn't mean it won't be able to move once it's completed.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Oh, that's just crap Morlath. Rannoch belongs to the Quarians. Their genetic history is there. The Quarians were forced to stay in their ships for 300 years. The council wouldn't allow them to settle on a world. The treaty they signed at practically gunpoint by the Council kept their hands tied not to aggravate the Geth which kept them off any of their habitable worlds which were all occupied by the Geth.

We know for a fact that the Geth cut off communications when they had been discussing the possibility of resettling on Rannoch. Why? Was it because that reaper landed? We don't know exactly when that reaper landed, do we? We don't know when that offer was made, do we? All we know is that they stopped communicating suddenly. So the Quarians prepared plan B, war. The reapers were coming. And don't go whining about arming the civilian ships. Reapers don't give a damn about civilian or military ships. That spinal mounted thanix cannon on the live ships gave them the fire power of a dreadnought. Glass cannons, yes, but at least they'd give one last act of defiance. Also remember the distance at which space battles occur. Read the codex.

What better time to attack the Geth than when the Council was occupied with other things and couldn't respond? Especially when they clearly had the upper hand and could finally get payback. Taking one of those worlds and settling wouldn't be enough because you know damned well the Geth would have counter attacked. No, this had to be a full, all out blitz. The Quarians had to go all in on this. There was no other choice.

If it wasn't for that reaper already being on Rannoch in that silo it was game over. Everyone knows it.

The choice was side with the serial killer who is going to kill you in three hours or be killed now? It wasn't to save their race. The reapers were going to kill them anyway, and they knew it. They could have surrendered to the Quarians. That was an option as well, but for some reason they never even thought of that. It never crossed the collective minds of the intelligentsia of the Geth that they could have sent a message to the Quarians:

"We surrender. You can have Rannoch. We will help you settle your civilians. We will help you fight the Reapers. There is one in a silo on the planet right now located here. It is wanting to help us fight you, but we are refusing its help. Instead we will help you destroy it."

Now, that would have been the message to send. Even that old war horse, Han'Gerrel would have had to listen.

No, they never sent that.

[Morlath]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

"We surrender. You can have Rannoch. We will help you settle your civilians. We will help you fight the Reapers. There is one in a silo on the planet right now located here. It is wanting to help us fight you, but we are refusing its help. Instead we will help you destroy it."

Now, that would have been the message to send. Even that old war horse, Han'Gerrel would have had to listen.

No, they never sent that.

And what proof do you have that Gerrel would have believed it?

It took two Admirals and Shepard to shout down Gerrel during the attempts at peace and in Legion's own words, the Quarians have attacked the Geth 100% of the time when they thought they could win. As far as the Geth know, all the Quarians want when it comes to the Geth is their destruction.

Modifié par Morlath, 15 mai 2013 - 11:04 .

[S.A.K]

*facepalm*This is silly. I don't know why I keep answering these anymore.

Morlath wrote...
1. Okay that's just crap.

The Geth slaughtered the Quarians during the Morning War - Agreed.

The Geth forced the Quarians to stay on their ships for the next 300 years - Not even close.

At some point in time it because Quarian policy to continue using the Flotilla until they could retake Rannoch. The Quarians DECIDED that no other world could do. Hell they could have even designed a central station for the population rather than individual live ships.

2. There's nothing to say the Salarians won't try to reintroduce the Genophage once the war is won. There's no proof the Salarians don't decide to use a bio weapon on another species that they have problems with.

3. The HERETICS sided with the Reapers - Blame the entire Geth.
ASARI sided with Saren - Blame the individuals alone
CERBERUS are using Reaper Tech and are causing problems with the war effect - Blame Cerberus but not Humanity.

4. And until their very existence was threatened the Geth refused to side with the Reapers.

If you pull a gun on someone and threaten their life and the ONLY way that that person can see of surviving is to allie themselves with a serial killer who has no control over their impulses, do you really think they wouldn't do it?

I'm not saying it was the morally right thing to do in siding with the Reapers, I'm saying that the Geth were put into a position by the Quarian attack where the concensus felt they had no other choice.

1. Are you kidding me? Quarians don't even have resources to maintain their own ships, much less create a space station. And you know damn well they tried to colonize other worlds but failed. And tell me did or did not the Geth hold Rannoch and all other Quarian colonies for 300 years and decide to shoot anyone trying to approach it?

2. Duh, we are dealing with Reapers here. Not something salarians might do in the future.
It seems like you can't say Geth wouldn't switch sides at all. So they can't be trusted for crap. And they are better off dead.

3. Geth use consensus for that sort of thing. Geth used to be one faction before Heretics remember? Some Geth wanted to join Reapers, others didn't but allowed Heretics to help Reapers in their quest. All Geth are responsible because the know what happens and they allowed it to happen. I don't whythis is so hard for you to grasp.

4. You know this how? Legion told you so?

You might actually understand something if it wasn't for your misplaced love for the Geth.

Modifié par S.A.K, 15 mai 2013 - 11:06 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You ask for proof. I'll ask you for proof. -- What proof do you have that he wouldn't have at the point right after the array was hit?

They have definite extinction by siding with the reapers, and a non-zero probability of survival with surrendering to the Quarians. Yet this was not even considered. At this point we can only speculate. My point is this should have been sent at the time the array was hit instead of siding with the reapers. They never took the chance.

But that is the difference between organic intelligence and machine intelligence.

I'm going to bed now.

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

4. You know this how? Legion told you so?

You might actually understand something if it wasn't for your misplaced love for the Geth.

And you might actually know what I'm saying if you weren't trying to prove that the Geth are evil demons. After all, your only reason not to trust Legion is because trusting him destroys your biased views.

[Morlath]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

You ask for proof. I'll ask you for proof. -- What proof do you have that he wouldn't have at the point right after the array was hit?

If I ask you for proof of your view, your proof is not your asking me to prove my own view.

[nos_astra]

Edit: Actually, I've changed my mind. I don't think my nitpicking would be constructive or appreciated. I should just agree to disagree with Morlath.

Modifié par klarabella, 15 mai 2013 - 12:08 .

[S.A.K]

Morlath wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

4. You know this how? Legion told you so?

You might actually understand something if it wasn't for your misplaced love for the Geth.

And you might actually know what I'm saying if you weren't trying to prove that the Geth are evil demons. After all, your only reason not to trust Legion is because trusting him destroys your biased views.

You expect me to trust that thing even after it went back on everything it said in ME2? Not only that, it lies repeatedly during ME3. It ever tries to kill Shepard when he disagreed. You failed to provide one reason why I should trust that thing.

I am sorry. I understand what you said, but I don't accept anything Legion says without proof because it's a damned lier. It's not my fault the Bioware butchered ME2 Legion.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Yes, completely agreed with OP.

Legion was probably rewritten when the Geth joined the Reapers.

He also deceives Shepard three times.

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

You ask for proof. I'll ask you for proof. -- What proof do you have that he wouldn't have at the point right after the array was hit?

They have definite extinction by siding with the reapers, and a non-zero probability of survival with surrendering to the Quarians. Yet this was not even considered. At this point we can only speculate. My point is this should have been sent at the time the array was hit instead of siding with the reapers. They never took the chance.

But that is the difference between organic intelligence and machine intelligence.

I'm going to bed now.

 

So before the war they voted against talking to them and at the end when the Geth are fleeing Gherel orders the Quarians to stay on them and exterminates them but somehow he would have accepted some form of peace with them?  Sure, lol.  Also Rannoch does not belong to the Quarians.  None of them have lived there for 300 years.  And the Geth cut communications after Legion became the signal booster.  Tali says she could have warned Legion meaning they were in communication after the Quarians decided to go to war. Tali says her last communication which happened since the attack was Legion telling her the Geth were having trouble reaching consensua which implies it was before the megastructure 

Modifié par remydat, 15 mai 2013 - 03:29 .

[remydat]

Silver

As expected you completely ignore the fact that Shotgun admitted she endorsed Xen's beliefs. She said an option for the Quarians to seize the consensus should have been provided. Perhaps you should read what she said and talk to her before running on with this ramble.

And an analogy does not have to have every single element be the same for it to apply this is not 4th grade. If you fail to see the connection between not intending to create life but creating one anyway then oh well. However until you, Shotgun or anyone else obtains mod powers I will make whatever analogies see fit. There is a mechanism in place for you to report forum violations so feel free to use it if you think I have. Perhaps when you do so you can also report yourself for numerous insults made which are clearly a violation of forum rules, lol.

Modifié par remydat, 15 mai 2013 - 01:47 .

[Morlath]

S.A.K wrote...

You expect me to trust that thing even after it went back on everything it said in ME2? Not only that, it lies repeatedly during ME3. It ever tries to kill Shepard when he disagreed. You failed to provide one reason why I should trust that thing.

I am sorry. I understand what you said, but I don't accept anything Legion says without proof because it's a damned lier. It's not my fault the Bioware butchered ME2 Legion.

Everything?

Legion says that the Geth have no problems with organics as long as they try to stop the Geth from finding their own future. In ME3 the Quarians attempted to stop the Geth from achieving their future.

[remydat]

Sak

Tali admitting that Legion has a soul is my favorite scene in the whole game. Dont let the hate overcome reason. I said in this scenario to distiguish it from other scenarios ie th peace option because I was making an in universe comment about the Tali that exists in that scenario which was scenario Heretic was referring to.

As for the baby thing not sure why you commented. The first sentence was me parodying complaining to me about commenting on babies as if the game doesnt have a.major plot point about unwanted babies. Had nothing to do with you.

Modifié par remydat, 15 mai 2013 - 03:31 .